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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Boney said:
If he thought it would actually work, he might. But all precedent for exposed groups of magic-users in the post-Magnus world is for them to get annexed into the Colleges, not left be to continue their traditions.
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Can we at least add Halétha to the list of Gods the parties are swearing under? Maybe that kind of recognition can make it easier for the Hedgewise to rebrand as Priests of Halétha.
 
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DragonParadox said:
The best solution is for Marienburg to the re-anexed, an independent Marienburg does not in any way make the world safer, but it does serve as a distraction to said Empire from more important foes. Not to mention that it seems to be quite vulnerable to corruption what with their habit of making deals with the Norscans for protection and the recent canal snafu. Contrast if the city is retaken, no distraction, the Grey Order can be in charge of purging any cults and Mathilde certainly trusts them more than Baron What's-his-face Imitation Colleges. Not to mention that we no longer have to deal with the 'God-given' right of monopolists to monopolize.

In conclusion screw Marienburg, they are at least as indolent as Vlad in the face of the greater dangers of the setting. If we had the AP I would be voting to assassinate its leadership in preparation for an invasion.
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An independent Marienbourg doesn't make the world safer, but it doesn't make it less so either. The Empire is still doing pretty good even without Marienbourg. Concerning corruption, they don't seem more vulnerable than anyone else. I don't remember them doing deals with Norscans, and we have no proof about the identity of the people who attacked the convoy.

And personally I like Marienbourg as a faction and find them cool, so I would vote against any such attempt.

BeepSmile said:
I worded that poorly. The phrase itself don't have old roots, but it arises from the very long history - and present - of the criminalisation of queerness.

My point that I was making when I said it was: not all crime is bad.

And that's fair that you don't want Ranald on the treaty. I do. I think it'd be cool and amusing.

I think he's punk as all heck and this treaty can be see as a form of community defence against chaos.
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That's interesting, I didn't know that. Thanks for the info :)

Indeed, not all crimes are bad, but plenty are. And Ranald presides also over them.

Well, to each their own tastes ;)
 
Boney said:
Who gets bumped, Sigmar or Verena?
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You already know Mathilde's answer to that :V

More seriously, I imagine Verena is here as Goddess of Learning, which is important, but seeing as a Priest of Halétha is actually a major participant to the Waystone Project this treaty is springing from, I think it would be acceptable to replace Verena with Halétha.
 
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K von Carstein said:
An independent Marienbourg doesn't make the world safer, but it doesn't make it less so either. The Empire is still doing pretty good even without Marienbourg. Concerning corruption, they don't seem more vulnerable than anyone else. I don't remember them doing deals with Norscans, and we have no proof about the identity of the people who attacked the convoy.

And personally I like Marienbourg as a faction and find them cool, so I would vote against any such attempt.
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It does in at least five ways that I can count:
  1. Keeping the First Fleet out of the Sea of Claws where it would otherwise fight Norscans and Druchi
  2. Making deals with Norscans winch just leads to more contact with Chaos worshipers
  3. Sabotaging 'rival ports' before they can get off the ground which would make the destruction of the city by Chaos raiders all the more devastating
  4. Weakening the Empire economically and hence also militarily
  5. Serving as a potential flash point of a Empire-Asur war
 
Pempelune said:
You already know Mathilde's answer to that :V
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It's not a treaty between Mathilde and the other nations, but between the Empire and them. The Empire of Sigmar, who's emperor get his legitimacy from being the heir of Sigmar, and who's most popular god is Sigmar. Replacing him by some random minor goddess is unlikely to be a very popular move for some people. Like, for example, the entire Empire government and the hierarchy of its biggest religion.
 
K von Carstein said:
An independent Marienbourg doesn't make the world safer, but it doesn't make it less so either. The Empire is still doing pretty good even without Marienbourg. Concerning corruption, they don't seem more vulnerable than anyone else. I don't remember them doing deals with Norscans, and we have no proof about the identity of the people who attacked the convoy.
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An independent Marienberg that threatens to blockade the Empire because the Dwarfs are building a canal that will let them trade with the Empire safely, thus enriching both peoples actually does make the world less safe. Iirc one of the Imperial fleets would be essentially trapped in port by this.
 
I'm definitely in favour of the establishment of some sort of Waystone Council, assembled from signatories, to monitor the network and act as an advisory group to the nations involved.

Make it semi-voluntary—we can't actually force anyone to join—but if we have some sort of rotating leadership thing then that encourages people to join.
 
I'd like to suggest amending clause 4 a bit. As I read it, while it would be utterly against the spirit, it would be perfectly within the letter for a signatory power to attempt to use the network to blackmail a non-signatory. If, for example, the Empire wished to threaten cutting off Bretonnia, my reading is that by the letter, there would be nothing the other powers could do about the blatant disregard of the idea that trying this only benefits Chaos. I'd suggest something like consultation with the other powers is required before using the network in this way, or to rule out any use against any nation, signatory or not.

Also, to be clear, it now requires unanimous consent to bring anybody else on as a signatory, yes? That would mean that if Mathilde wanted to, she couldn't just recruit Bretonnia (or anybody else other than groups within existing signatories) any more. That might make recruitment effectively a 2AP action, perhaps, negotiation with the new joiner and negotiation with existing partners. Aside from wanting Bretonnia on board, I'm not opposed, but thought it worth getting confirmation of this.
 
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Alratan said:
Yeah, the issue with Marienberg, as I understand it, is that the Empire wants to renege on the treaties it's signed essentially out of pure revanchism.

The best solution here is for the Empire to give up on reconquering Marienberg and for Marienberg to receive guarantees of its independence strong enough that it doesn't feel the need to play games to strengthen its own independent deterrence.

The problem with this is that the Empire doesn't want to give up its territorial ambitions and also, as the Nordland-Laurelorn issue demonstrates, has a poor record of treaty compliance with neighbours that aren't able to force them to at all times.

In many ways the problem with Ulthuan's guarantee is that it's too ambiguous and not strong enough. If they could credibly absolutely guarantee Marienberg's independence then Marienberg can drop their embargo and get on with making money secure in the knowledge that the Empire can't attack them. The issue is that they're currently too insecure and the Empire too untrustworthy.
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... No. The problem with Marienburg is that they control the most important waterway of the Empire, and they can and do use that position to impose tariffs on trade in and out of the Empire. It's perfectly reasonable for the Empire to want this to cease, and the most expedient way is to simply reconquer the place. This is not about Marienburn having a "strategic deterrent" to use when things get tense, it's about Marienburg profitting daily off the Empire's foreign trade.
There was a similar situation IRL, with New Orleans sitting at the mouth of the Mississipi. There's a reason controlling New Orleans was so important to American foreign diplomacy, and that was it.
 
Looks good. Article 2 keeps Ulthuan from going goblin mode over changes to the the network, which was the biggest worry. Article 4 keeps everyone else from getting ideas , and articles 6 and 7 have everyone agree to keep in contact and sound the alarm when there's a problem. That's everything we need imo.

Getting a permanent waystone council that focuses on cooperation is interesting, but I really doubt the Dwarves and Ulthuan would be interested. I think this is about as much as we could realistically get, and that we're only getting this much because this prince was willing to compromise and offer a practical deal.
 
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Parabola said:
Honestly I'm inclined to just vote Yes. All this talk of sneaking in Ranald feels so-so.
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I think adding a clause that there should be continuing exchange on the matter is a good idea. At that point, add one more (and there's quite a few options) to add an X for Ranald is fairly simple, and also pretty clever. And given that Ranalds help has contributed significantly to the project (leaving everything else aside, he was the one that got Aksel on board), it's fair enough.
 
This would be a pure gift to Ulthuan, but I feel like there should be something in there about notifying downstream signatories before making intentional major changes to rate of flow. Not giving them veto power, just letting them know.
 
LancyIain said:
I'd like to suggest amending clause 4 a bit. As I read it, while it would be utterly against the spirit, it would be perfectly within the letter for a signatory power to attempt to use the network to blackmail a non-signatory. If, for example, the Empire wished to threaten cutting off Bretonnia, my reading is that by the letter, there would be nothing the other powers could do about the blatant disregard of the idea that trying this only benefits Chaos. I'd suggest something like consultation with the other powers is required before using the network in this way, or to rule out any use against any nation, signatory or not.
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None of the signatories except Ulthuan are between a non-signatory and the Vortex, so there is no means of anyone cutting anyone else off.

LancyIain said:
Also, to be clear, it now requires unanimous consent to bring anybody else on as a signatory, yes? That would mean that if Mathilde wanted to, she couldn't just recruit Bretonnia (or anybody else other than groups within existing signatories) any more. That might make recruitment effectively a 2AP action, perhaps, negotiation with the new joiner and negotiation with existing partners. Aside from wanting Bretonnia on board, I'm not opposed, but thought it worth getting confirmation of this.
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You can't make a nation a co-signatory with another nation if they don't want to be. If you try, they can just pull out of the treaty. That's why everyone has a veto, because them saying 'no' and blocking it is better than them pulling out completely and undermining the whole original purpose of it.
 
Pempelune said:
Can we at least add Halétha to the list of Gods the parties are swearing under? Maybe that kind of recognition can make it easier for the Hedgewise to rebrand as Priests of Halétha.
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The issue is that only 2 provinces of Hedgewise (Ostland and Nordland) would accept rebranding as Priests of Haletha.

Hedgewise in other provinces do not claim Haletha as the source of their magic and do not profess to be worshipping her.

Are we going to elevate the Halethan Hedgewise and declare the rest heretics and Chaos worshippers?
 
Mopman43 said:
The issue is that only 2 provinces of Hedgewise (Ostland and Nordland) would accept rebranding as Priests of Haletha.

Hedgewise in other provinces do not claim Haletha as the source of their magic and do not profess to be worshipping her.

Are we going to elevate the Halethan Hedgewise and declare the rest heretics and Chaos worshippers?
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Well - aren't they essentially already that? How would the Ostland and Nordland Hedgewise going legit harm them?
I think the issue is more that it's hard to pretend that the Ostland Hedgewise are doing Haléthan Miracles when non-Haléthan Hedgewise are doing magic that look stunningly similar.
 
Pempelune said:
You already know Mathilde's answer to that :V

More seriously, I imagine Verena is here as Goddess of Learning, which is important, but seeing as a Priest of Halétha is actually a major participant to the Waystone Project this treaty is springing from, I think it would be acceptable to replace Verena with Halétha.
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This is an official legal contract between different nations
Verena's here as the goddess of Knowledge and Law, and she's going to be very hard to argue being replaced in favor of a minor regional goddess

Especially since Aksel's not going to argue for it, since as far as he's concerned, attention being drawn to him and his ends badly
Boney said:
If he thought it would actually work, he might. But all precedent for exposed groups of magic-users in the post-Magnus world is for them to get annexed into the Colleges, not left be to continue their traditions.
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Boney said:
3. All signatories to these accords will disclose to all others the approximate location of Nexuses within their lands, as well as promptly communicate to the others should any of those nexuses be destroyed, damaged beyond their ability to repair, or captured beyond their ability to retake.
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Does this actually oblige the signatories to disclose to others the approximate locations of nexuses they are aware of that happen to be in other signatories lands? I.e. if the Dwarves know about Bugman's nexus (that is in the empire) they have to tell the Empire about it.*

The description text seems to imply it does but the actual document is ambiguous.

Perhaps an alternative phrasing could be:

3. All signatories to these accords will disclose to all others the approximate location of Nexuses within their lands or within the lands of another signatory, as well as promptly communicate to the others should any of those nexuses be destroyed, damaged beyond their ability to repair, or captured beyond their ability to retake.

*Yes the Dawi are the least likely to play these sorts of diplomatic games but it was an easy example
 
LightLan said:
Boris seems happy with what we chose :)
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Imo it being a "broader" state-level favor helped a lot. The price for his father's death being a Empire/Kislev scale favor helps Boris mentally frame the whole affair as being for the greater whole vs a personal thing.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Ranald and Haletha as Gods of the Hedgewise? And if we do that, we might want to also add the Earth Mother and the Architect guy from the Lights, so we get a full representation of the petty traditions aiding the project.
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Oh I think I like this.
 
Pempelune said:
Well - aren't they essentially already that? How would the Ostland and Nordland Hedgewise going legit harm them?
I think the issue is more that it's hard to pretend that the Ostland Hedgewise are doing Haléthan Miracles when non-Haléthan Hedgewise are doing magic that look stunningly similar.
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That's kinda what I mean, declaring the Halethan Hedgewise legit means that we need to convert or wipe out the rest, and get the Halethans involved to do it.
 
Boney said:
Who gets bumped, Sigmar or Verena?
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Like you even need to ask, lol.
Pempelune said:
You already know Mathilde's answer to that :V

More seriously, I imagine Verena is here as Goddess of Learning, which is important, but seeing as a Priest of Halétha is actually a major participant to the Waystone Project this treaty is springing from, I think it would be acceptable to replace Verena with Halétha.
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Nah, Verena is here as the goddess of law, among other things.

I legit expect her to violently and personally object to anyone violating a legally binding treaty she's written to be an observer of.
 
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Humbaba said:
Does this actually oblige the signatories to disclose to others the approximate locations of nexuses they are aware of that happen to be in other signatories lands? I.e. if the Dwarves know about Bugman's nexus (that is in the empire) they have to tell the Empire about it.*

The description text seems to imply it does but the actual document is ambiguous.
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No. If a nation wants to share that information, they will. If they don't, they won't.
 
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