- Location
- Oklahoma
As befits a god of sneakery, Ranald's symbol is unobtrusive and ambiguous. It's easy to work in in a deniable way, because a crosshatch can mean many things other than 'Ranald'.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
As befits a god of sneakery, Ranald's symbol is unobtrusive and ambiguous. It's easy to work in in a deniable way, because a crosshatch can mean many things other than 'Ranald'.
When added at the suggestion of a known worshipper of Ranald, it's much less unobtrusive or ambiguous though.
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I love this, and spent some time trying to make it work (and also in reverse order so it wouldn't be obvious), but I couldn't manage it without sounding awkward.
Forge of Destiny. And it is pretty fun, though saying 46 updates on hammering out details might make it sound more... focused than it really was. Most of that was the general bickering surrounding it (and the broader first contact), plus there was treaty related intrigue. Still, it was fairly Divided Loyalties-esque, in the best sense. The rest of the quest is also good, but the flavor has changed over time.
- Location
- Finland
1. Only if the current signees had problems with them.
2. Probably not, because i doubt anyone wants to let go of a veto, including us.
The problem with requiring unanimity is that it makes it very hard to expand. We probably want the accord to be above and beyond regular politics in some ways, so making it harder to block people joining could be a good idea.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I'm gonna start drafting my vote, so that the thread can chew on it and give feedback:
[] No
-[] Specify why:
--[] Add two more clauses, inserted before the currently final Clause 8:
--[] A Clause pushing for some commitment between signatories to maintain participation in a forum where waystone information can be shared. The commitment doesn't have to be as in-depth as the current Waystone Project, but it should basically act as a backstop to make it easier to create a "Waystone Project 2.0" if the need arises once again some centuries down the line, and reduce the chances of the project falling apart if Mathilde gets killed in the near future. Having a diplomatic line open should reduce the chances of hostilities between parties, too.
--[] <Some other clause. Maybe the thing about adding signatories, maybe some other, better idea the thread will come up with in the interim.>
--[] Have the clauses be denoted with Classical numbering, such that the final Clause 10 is denoted with an "X".
[] No
-[] Specify why:
--[] Add two more clauses, inserted before the currently final Clause 8:
--[] A Clause pushing for some commitment between signatories to maintain participation in a forum where waystone information can be shared. The commitment doesn't have to be as in-depth as the current Waystone Project, but it should basically act as a backstop to make it easier to create a "Waystone Project 2.0" if the need arises once again some centuries down the line, and reduce the chances of the project falling apart if Mathilde gets killed in the near future. Having a diplomatic line open should reduce the chances of hostilities between parties, too.
--[] <Some other clause. Maybe the thing about adding signatories, maybe some other, better idea the thread will come up with in the interim.>
--[] Have the clauses be denoted with Classical numbering, such that the final Clause 10 is denoted with an "X".
Eh, let's not try to play too clever or too greedy with the Accords. Whether in terms of material, or in terms of giving out religious mention or prestige.
First, remember that these Accords are for the nations. The signatories are the nations, not the individual cults. That means that the nations are on the hook for providing for it, or abiding by this Accord. (Even if the way the nations might go about fulfilling some of the responsibilities might be "Pay the Colleges of Magic to do the thing." It might not be. For instance, their contribution might come in the form of "Oh okay, we need to send an army to X to save the world? Well, Y province is closest to that area, so have Y's Elector Count lead an army to it.")
That also means appeasing/including/using the main, and applicable-to-this-situation, gods of those nations. If the Empire's listed Gods were Haletha and Ranald -- or even just "Sigmar, Verena, Haletha, and Ranald" ((and the other nations involved might each want to get more gods too)) -- how would the Imperial citizens feel about it? They wouldn't feel motivated by it at all. They'd go "Who is this god, barely heard of him? And the Trickster? That sounds shady to me!"
When you make an Accord for a nation, it's best to use their main god. People feel more comfortable about an agreement because of that. People feel like an agreement is more weighty because of that. The weight of a god has, well, weight.
The reason Verena is getting invoked is because... well, because it's a matter of diplomacy and law and agreements. And so the Goddess of Truth and Justice seems appropriate.
Though, a part of me is curious about what it would be like if the main gods invoked here were Sigmar and Ulric. Two big gods of the Empire's peoples. And also two of the gods that clash a lot. (And one of them has their cult currently undergoing some upheavals.)
It would have been amusing to see how the two cults would feel about an agreement that had both their gods' name on it. Ulricans having to share space with Sigmarites, and vice versa.
First, remember that these Accords are for the nations. The signatories are the nations, not the individual cults. That means that the nations are on the hook for providing for it, or abiding by this Accord. (Even if the way the nations might go about fulfilling some of the responsibilities might be "Pay the Colleges of Magic to do the thing." It might not be. For instance, their contribution might come in the form of "Oh okay, we need to send an army to X to save the world? Well, Y province is closest to that area, so have Y's Elector Count lead an army to it.")
That also means appeasing/including/using the main, and applicable-to-this-situation, gods of those nations. If the Empire's listed Gods were Haletha and Ranald -- or even just "Sigmar, Verena, Haletha, and Ranald" ((and the other nations involved might each want to get more gods too)) -- how would the Imperial citizens feel about it? They wouldn't feel motivated by it at all. They'd go "Who is this god, barely heard of him? And the Trickster? That sounds shady to me!"
When you make an Accord for a nation, it's best to use their main god. People feel more comfortable about an agreement because of that. People feel like an agreement is more weighty because of that. The weight of a god has, well, weight.
The reason Verena is getting invoked is because... well, because it's a matter of diplomacy and law and agreements. And so the Goddess of Truth and Justice seems appropriate.
Though, a part of me is curious about what it would be like if the main gods invoked here were Sigmar and Ulric. Two big gods of the Empire's peoples. And also two of the gods that clash a lot. (And one of them has their cult currently undergoing some upheavals.)
It would have been amusing to see how the two cults would feel about an agreement that had both their gods' name on it. Ulricans having to share space with Sigmarites, and vice versa.
[ ] No
-[ ] A push for a more formal and legitimate treatise should be worked on now considering the following things. First, a legitimate body, comprised of the current signatories that would serve as a permanent organization to watch over the network, and ensure that it functions to the best that it can. Second, a provision should be written with regards to others who might be interested in joining the network, and how the current body would handle it e.g. would there be a vote? a task? etc.. Third, a provision should also be made, in support of the first one to make sure that the project will continue going on despite the death of the original signatories, after all, the network is and will always be an important part of the world and such should be treated with a more long-lasting approach than one which is ad-hoc.
Will revisit this vote once the vote is officially open, just putting it out there in case this can be made viable. Thanks!
-[ ] A push for a more formal and legitimate treatise should be worked on now considering the following things. First, a legitimate body, comprised of the current signatories that would serve as a permanent organization to watch over the network, and ensure that it functions to the best that it can. Second, a provision should be written with regards to others who might be interested in joining the network, and how the current body would handle it e.g. would there be a vote? a task? etc.. Third, a provision should also be made, in support of the first one to make sure that the project will continue going on despite the death of the original signatories, after all, the network is and will always be an important part of the world and such should be treated with a more long-lasting approach than one which is ad-hoc.
Will revisit this vote once the vote is officially open, just putting it out there in case this can be made viable. Thanks!
- Location
- Oklahoma
We'd probably be adding it after the fact on the prettied up official version, not just going 'hey let's put an X here' 'why' 'oh no reason I just think it'd look better'.
- Location
- Finland
Do you want Ulthuan adding Marienburg into the accords without our input?
Because that's how you get Marienburg in the accords without our input.
Maybe something like this:
[] No
-[] Specify why:
--[] Add two more clauses, inserted before the currently final Clause 8:
--[] A Clause pushing for some commitment between signatories to maintain participation in a forum where waystone information can be shared. The commitment doesn't have to be as in-depth as the current Waystone Project, but it should basically act as a backstop to make it easier to create a "Waystone Project 2.0" if the need arises once again some centuries down the line, and reduce the chances of the project falling apart if Mathilde gets killed in the near future. Having a diplomatic line open should reduce the chances of hostilities between parties, too.
--[] A clause explicitly prohibiting damage to the network in a time of war both between the signatories and in general
--[] Have the clauses be denoted with Classical numbering, such that the final Clause 10 is denoted with an "X".
So, picking up @Redshirt Army's suggestion for changes, here's a first suggestion:
[ ] No
-[ ] Use roman numerals and add two more clauses, so that the final clause enumerating the gods starts with X
-[ ] First additional clause: add a provision that the signatories continue to meet and discuss the relevant details. How often and how intensly is kept purposely vague.
-[ ] Second addition: The process for adding new signatories
The second could have some other options
- [ ] general mission statement that the waystone are for the good of all
- [ ] acknowledging that various traditions have contributed towards this, as a way to nod towards the Hedgewise
- [ ] How sieges where nexi are part of a defensive structure should be handled
EDIT: Huh, just too slow.
[ ] No
-[ ] Use roman numerals and add two more clauses, so that the final clause enumerating the gods starts with X
-[ ] First additional clause: add a provision that the signatories continue to meet and discuss the relevant details. How often and how intensly is kept purposely vague.
-[ ] Second addition: The process for adding new signatories
The second could have some other options
- [ ] general mission statement that the waystone are for the good of all
- [ ] acknowledging that various traditions have contributed towards this, as a way to nod towards the Hedgewise
- [ ] How sieges where nexi are part of a defensive structure should be handled
EDIT: Huh, just too slow.
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
Keep the signing line under the gods names, have Mathilde sign first, and have her start her signature with an X as a stylistic thing?
- Location
- Moscow
I fail to see a problem with that.
Having Marienburg legally promise not to mess with their Nexus and not interfere (or better yet, support) our project has no downside.
Ranald has in fact aided in the present functioning of the Project more than the entire nation of Kislev. He directly helped the tributary rite and through the Father got us the Hedgewise. By contrast no offense to Zlata, but she was of no discernible use so far. Baba N who was much more useful was noted in this very update to be acting of her own accord.
- Location
- Moscow
Switch to Roman numericals and have 10 clauses total so the last one is numbered X?
We can get the scribe to replace the numbers on the agreement with roman numerals.
Specifically making the choice to turn 8 into IIX
No other place will the X appear other than the segment for gods.
No other changes necessary.
You're welcome Ranald
IIX
Specifically making the choice to turn 8 into IIX
No other place will the X appear other than the segment for gods.
No other changes necessary.
You're welcome Ranald
IIX
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, credit where credit is due. He might be a God of sneakiness, and His help might've been entirely because of Mathilde's prayers, but He did help the project directly.
Although I wouldn't underestimate Kislev, after all Boris was the one who got us Niedzwenka (to return a favor, but still, she's his contact), and he's in it because Kislev Really Needs This.
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
Hoe much of an artistic flair could be added on each page? What about each section or paragraph written in a 'box' and each box is connected by smoothy flowing lines. Like... squat hourglass type shape.
- Location
- Finland
Mainly the issue is that someone previously in thread worried about Ulthuan getting Marienburg into accords and using them as further pretext to stop Empire from trying to conquer Marienburg.
Every nation is going to have reasons for wanting to keep a veto, just in case.
Isn't the first clause already covered by this --
And isn't the second clause already covered by this
?
There doesn't need to be clauses for this, because it's either a matter of "We are either already doing this as part of one of the clauses" or "This becomes a matter of diplomacy between nations, stuff that is driven and done by the nations and diplomats."
Both the addition -- or the removal, in case some nation really shits the bed (or, well... dies, in a grim scenario) -- of a signatory is something that is the domain of the sovereigns or the diplomats.
Also, trying to make the Accords take into account something that might happen centuries down the line? That's a bad idea.
This isn't a nation's constitution or set of laws we are drafting here -- and even constitutions change over time -- this is, again, a diplomatic agreement between nations.
You can't expect this to be set in stone for centuries.
And also, if the Accords or the nations want to add or change stuff to the Accords over the centuries, then they'll do that if or when or as it comes up. It doesn't need to be in the Accords to begin with. It shouldn't be in the Accords to begin with. These are sovereign nations, not parts-of-nations or sub-nations. Don't try to do an end-run around sovereignty or the diplomats.
Also... not sure if it's even necessary, as it comes to the first clause?
"and reduce the chances of the project falling apart if Mathilde gets killed in the near future. Having a diplomatic line open should reduce the chances of hostilities between parties, too."
If Mathilde getting killed would scupper the project, then it'll scupper the project regardless of this additional clause or not. If it won't, it won't.
And "having diplomatic lines open" is already something at least some of the nations involved already have; Kislev with the Empire, and the Empire with the Karaz Ankor. Ulthuan somewhat with the others too. The presence of the accord are already a diplomatic line!
Don't try to sneak the beginning of an entire United Nations or League of Nations into this. This should be an accord for the Waystone Project. It should not be a carte blanche to be as ambitious as possible about politics and the governing or diplomacy of the nations involved.
Just focus on our job and goal. Getting waystones and getting support for them. Not forcing everybody to start forming a League of Nations or something. If the Old World wants to form the Justice League, it can start doing so decades after, on its own initiative, not because of an attempt to lay the seeds for such at what was supposed to be a magical research project for draining away and protecting against magics.
Don't try to add clauses just to make it X clauses either.
Please do not overcomplicate things, or compel the nations involved to more duties -- or empty duties or clauses that serve no real point -- just for a neat personal religious coup.
This line is going to alter plans for Turn 43. To my understanding, it says that Mathilde will need to share the rituals with Ulthuan, then the keyphrase leyline will become available for the prototype. There are two rituals Ulthuan can use, Aethyric Impluvium and Liminal Germination. That will require Niedzwenka, Tochter, and Cadaeth.
So, something like this?
[ ] Plan 43
-[ ] Waystone: Build a Waystone (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Elrisse, Tochter)
-[ ] Tributary: International (Ulthuan) (Niedzwenka, Tochter, Cadaeth)
-[ ] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo (requires one of each Power Stone)
-[ ] Serenity: Write a book : Aethyric Vitae 1/2
-idk what other actions people would want, I'd like to poke the Karaz Ankor network at least
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Gave it my best shot. Not bad, but not great either. Particularly unhappy about my rewording of 5, but this is a jokey thing anyway so meh.
Article: 1. Every signatory agress that it is indisputable that the Great Vortex at the heart of Ulthuan is the sole creation, possession, and responsibility of the Asur of Ulthuan, as led by the rightful and unburned Phoenix Kings.
2. Due to the fact that the composite parts of the Waystone Network were made by many hands of many races, those that fall within the recognized lands of a signatory to these accords are the recognized possession and responsibility of that people.
3. Lest undue damage befall a Nexus, all signatories to these accords will disclose to all others the approximate location of Nexuses within their lands, as well as promptly communicate to the others should any of those nexuses be destroyed, damaged beyond their ability to repair, or captured beyond their ability to retake.
4. In no case will signatories to these accords will threaten or perform any interference with the proper operation of the Waystone Network as a means of coercion or act of sabotage upon another signatory. Such an act is detrimental to the entire world and benefits only the forces of Chaos.
5. Holding that the proliferation of techniques for expanding the Waystone Network benefit all of the world's civilized realms. However it is also recognized that the secrets of the magical traditions of the signatories are paramount to their security. Neither of these should be sacrificed to serve the other.
6. The signatories are encouraged to share spells, rituals, techniques, and any other relevant informations that are of direct use in maintaining and expanding the Waystone Network, so long as it is possible to do so without revealing a disproportionate amount of the underpinnings of their traditions.
7. All or some signatories in times of need, and with the consent of the signatories involved, may perform military interventions to restore, defend, or expand the Waystone Network throughout the Old World and its frontiers.
8. May these accords be made and signed under the sight of the Ancient Widow and Dazh, Asuryan and Hoeth, Grungni and Thungni, Sigmar and Verena, and Isha and Hekarti
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Honestly I'm inclined to just vote Yes. All this talk of sneaking in Ranald feels so-so.
See here:
See here:
There is no world in which the Empire wouldn't object to Marienburg joining to try to be recognized as a nation.
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