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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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SaltyWaffles said:
Surely a Hysh enchantment could be made for the task? It seems like the most fitting of the Winds for allowing a language to be translated in real time to communicate clearly.
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I think Boney answered that at some point, though I can't find the post. For a spell to be able to provide accurate translation, it has to possess its own mind, which would be both hard (potentially impossible) and unethical.

Also, maybe it's just me, but a thinking spell sounds like it could get subverted by demons.
Though I guess you could ask a spirit to translate, if it knew the languages?
 
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Shard said:
You know, the We's problems with becoming civilized enough that The Talking Beast doesn't work?

Do you think a Hysh-based spell (as the We are now 'Civilized') could resolve the issue?
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No. A spell to merely transcribe spoken words into text would be incredible onerous. This is what Mathilde had to say about it like ten in-game years ago:

Boney said:
You had explored the possibility of magical dictation, but had run into roadblocks early and often. There were two ways for it to work - one where the enchantment would access the mind of the user, and one that relied only on sound. The former was several disasters waiting to happen, as so far the intended users of the tower were yourself and Maximilian, which meant that at best half and more likely both of you would have a foreign magic operating on your brain, and creating Dhar inside one's brain was as terrible idea as it sounded, and even if your belt would protect you from it, it would still prevent it from working. The latter was trickier than it sounded, and you would either need to create or enslave a sentient mind for the purpose - rather drastic, morally dubious, and that's what you had Maximilian for - or you build a complete understanding of Reikspiel or Praestantia into the spell itself, which would be an utterly titanic undertaking.
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IIRC this is also one reason why it'd be near-impossible to have a spell or enchantment that can 'decode' cyphers or such: some cyphers are literally impossible to solve without actually knowing their key. A spell is not a machine. So it's not a matter of merely switching Winds, it's a matter of how Ghur/The Talking Beast lets animals communicate with humans. It doesn't 'translate'.

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Ironically, it is explicitly very doable to turn spoken Khazalid into written Khazalid:

Boney said:
Infuriatingly, Dwarven runes could perform this easily - but only for Khazalid. Something to do with both the Klinkarun alphabet of Khazalid and the art of Runesmithing both descending from the Ancestor Gods, apparently. An interesting line of enquiry at a time when you're drowning in them, but no good for you unless you write a paper for Dwarven eyes only.
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So who knows, maybe it'd be possible for Runesmiths to do the opposite: to have a rune-talisman that can turn written Khazalid into spoken Khazalid? But maybe not, maybe that works on the basis of "turning ephemeral sounds (normal) into solid written meaning (dwarfy)". That'd be more doable than the other way around.
 
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NamelessBeast said:
I think Boney answered that at some point, though I can't find the post. For a spell to be able to provide accurate translation, it has to possess its own mind, which would be both hard (potentially impossible) and unethical.

Also, maybe it's just me, but a thinking spell sounds like it could get subverted by demons.
Though I guess you could ask a spirit to translate, if it knew the languages?
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That doesn't make sense. The Talking Beast provides an accurate translation, and it's an established spell. I can't see why a verbal translation spell would be different.

I'm not talking about magical dictation, I'm talking about verbal translation from one language into another. The Talking Beast but for non-beast languages, using High Magic or Hysh.
 
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Adrian XXIV said:
So "Saint of Ranald" is Demigod of Clan Mors and "Mors-allied part of Clan Eshin?
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More like "she stole Skaven females and raised them normally at some point and created a new Mors to replace the one she also destroyed that happens to have a lot of Eshin defectors, all of whom chose Ranald as their god because he's the best acceptable fit for the Skaven". They regard her as semi-divine, and she might be at this point, considering she's built a new society with a new god. That got Sigmar some measure of divinity.

The Night Prowler, the Deceiver, the Gambler...but also the Protector, and thus infinitely better than the Horned Rat betrayer-thing, yes-yes.

I left out a concept I had about both old and new Mors and how they are fundamentally different from other Skaven, as expressed in the fact that Mors marches in a disciplined way. Other Skaven armies don't. Couldn't work it into the snippet.
 
What about Human auxiliaries of "new Mors"?

Are these guys Ranaldians, Yellow Fang Cultists... weird combination of both?
 
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Adrian XXIV said:
What about Human auxiliaries of "new Mors"?

Are these guys Ranaldians, Yellow Fang Cultists... weird combination of both?
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When you've been planning something for a century or more you accumulate some amount of favors and money that you haven't managed to spend directly. They're mostly favors called in and mercs hired.

And given how close the Tileans are to Skavenblight if you convince them you could actually pull off a coup for less troublesome rats they'd do it for a ham sandwhich.
 
Parabola said:
Ironically, it is explicitly very doable to turn spoken Khazalid into written Khazalid:
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I wonder if this has to do with the old one language roots? It would be kind of funny if the elf magic-tongue could be transcribed despite the multiple variants meanings because it was linked to the underlying reality and it's manipulation.

SaltyWaffles said:
I'm not talking about magical dictation, I'm talking about verbal translation from one language into another. The Talking Beast but for non-beast languages, using High Magic or Hysh.
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I think the issue is where the matching between the two languages happens. If the caster speaks both languages, then no issue but also no point to the spell. If the caster only speaks one, then where the second one comes from and how the meanings are mapped from one to the other will demand a mind that holds both and can do the activity.

Beasts probably escape this by being sub-lingual, and since impulses/instincts exist already in the casters' mind it's just tying the beast's signals to the 'language' already present, then translating to the second, already present, language.
 
Parabola said:
No. A spell to merely transcribe spoken words into text would be incredible onerous. This is what Mathilde had to say about it like ten in-game years ago:
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Making text with the spoken magics is hard - but making speech is a basic cantrip that Wolf uses whenever he feels like it.

Runework is writing so it can make writing, spellcasting is speech and can make speech.
 
I'll note that for the big use case it's not really translation that we're looking for, the We already "knows" reikspiel, what we're looking for is a way to turn silent thoughts into spoken words. Or alternately, some sort of telepathy would also do it.
 
Alliterate said:
Exploding the Black Pillar… has this Saint Mathilde taught her Eshin sorcerers the Second Secret of Dhar?
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I mean I don't really know how many she has or anything though her inroads through the Eshin were probably a certain assassin-friend once upon a time, at least to start.

And I don't know if she would have shared it widely.

But that one, particular Eshin? Maybe some of the others that exploded generators? Absolutely, that was the intent. They're essentially suicide bombers, mind. Older rats who want to make a final, great contribution, rats who believe in the new order but also see themselves with no place within it. To Mathilde, they are analogous with Slayers, and she understands the urges that drive Slayers, even if she does not entirely approve.

So they walk right up to big pieces of Warpstone and blow them up, and Ranald loves a good gambit even if he's not fond of suicidal devotion from his followers.
 
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Glau said:
I wonder if this has to do with the old one language roots? It would be kind of funny if the elf magic-tongue could be transcribed despite the multiple variants meanings because it was linked to the underlying reality and it's manipulation.



I think the issue is where the matching between the two languages happens. If the caster speaks both languages, then no issue but also no point to the spell. If the caster only speaks one, then where the second one comes from and how the meanings are mapped from one to the other will demand a mind that holds both and can do the activity.

Beasts probably escape this by being sub-lingual, and since impulses/instincts exist already in the casters' mind it's just tying the beast's signals to the 'language' already present, then translating to the second, already present, language.
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You could pursue that avenue, then, to create a spell that verbalizes the speech of a language you already know through the use of sub-lingual mechanisms. The spell would not be translating so much as creating the sounds you're directing it to make using organs you actually do possess rather than ones you don't.

The We have been "speaking" Reikspiel using the enchanted bracelets for a while now; they are used to any given actions/gestures/vocalizations that come naturally to them translating in specific ways to specific words in Reikspiel. The spell would thus use the mind of the We, who already know Reikspiel (given that they read/write it and read/write in response to verbal Reikspiel just fine), so the spell would merely be creating the sounds according to the We.

Ulgu might actually fit as the most suitable Wind, in that case, since it manipulates sounds very naturally. And since it would not need to impart the knowledge of the language, it would probably be a lot simpler than a translation spell.
 
kingreaper said:
Making text with the spoken magics is hard - but making speech is a basic cantrip that Wolf uses whenever he feels like it.

Runework is writing so it can make writing, spellcasting is speech and can make speech.
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Glau said:
But wolf is restricted to a single, spellcasting, language with that cantrip. He can't talk in reikspeil, for example.
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Wolf is also a sentient being with a direct connection to Mathilde's mind. He's not a spell that had to have Lingua Praestantia encoded within him, with miscasts as a consequence of failures. He was able to learn it bit by bit, organically.

I assume that's one reason why the quote I posted mentions that one possibility that Mathilde discarded is creating or enslaving a sentient mind for purposes of dictation - because sentient minds can actually understand languages and creatively fill in any gaps or correct mistakes.
 
Parabola said:
No. A spell to merely transcribe spoken words into text would be incredible onerous. This is what Mathilde had to say about it like ten in-game years ago:



IIRC this is also one reason why it'd be near-impossible to have a spell or enchantment that can 'decode' cyphers or such: some cyphers are literally impossible to solve without actually knowing their key. A spell is not a machine. So it's not a matter of merely switching Winds, it's a matter of how Ghur/The Talking Beast lets animals communicate with humans. It doesn't 'translate'.

...
Ironically, it is explicitly very doable to turn spoken Khazalid into written Khazalid:


So who knows, maybe it'd be possible for Runesmiths to do the opposite: to have a rune-talisman that can turn written Khazalid into spoken Khazalid? But maybe not, maybe that works on the basis of "turning ephemeral sounds (normal) into solid written meaning (dwarfy)". That'd be more doable than the other way around.
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Per the first part of the quote, the reason why a transcription spell that needs to reach into the user's brain is unfeasible is because it needed to be used by Max or Mathilde who have incompatible winds already in their brains. The We doesn't, so it should be an entirely valid approach in its case. This doesn't seem to be a general argument against translation spells being possible.
 
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