Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Abhorsen]

I'm of the opinion that even if Damsels contribute precisely zero (0) to the project, having Bretonnia's buy-in as a polity is still valuable in the coming turns.

Having a semi-united Old World is a rare occurrence, even on a singular topic like Waystones, and the mere appearance of such is going to severely constrain Ulthuan's options when it comes to shutting things down, since they'll have very limited abilities to leverage us against each other.

But, of course, I don't expect zero contributions. If we already have the foundation and prototype ready when we talk with the Damsels? Great, we can bargain with Bretonnia with a strong hand. If we hit a stumbling block? Also fine, having extra insights to overcome that stumbling block before we talk to Ulthuan is worth getting a worse deal with Bretonnia.

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No, I straight up disagree with this. Working Waystones is something everyone wants, number one. The idea that they wouldn't buy in is crazy. Ulthuan simply isn't going to be able to shut down our export capabilities here (nor would they want to? Unless we grab the magic and use it in Brettonia like Kislev, they'll be happy about new waystones. It literally sends Ulthuan more power).

Number 2: it's that their contributions are worth a lot less than their payment, not that their contributions aren't going to happen. Now that stuff has happened, they don't have near as much to contribute on. I believe Boney commented on us extracting payment (i.e. them giving us stuff for waystones).

 

[SpaceSloth]

I doubt these particular Druchii traders have that info and wouldn't trust it even if they did, so they just aren't offering what we want - but what they can provide is the appearance of being willing to reach out to the Druchii if Ulthuan doesn't play nicely.

In that context, the specific deal we make with the Druchii barely matters. We can probably find something that doesn't offend our sensibilities somewhere - give them info they can get elsewhere in exchange for a heads-up on Druchii raids that help destroy their rivals or whatever.

What matters is the implication - that we made any deal with the Druchii at all is something that Ulthuan will need to keep in mind when they show up, since if they overplay their hand and try to lean on the stick instead of the carrot... well. We have options, yeah?

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It also gains us reputation as someone who is open to making deals with Druchii which might close some doors for us, it will likely make any attempts to create long term relationship between Nagarythes and Grey Order much more difficult.

 

[WorldSlayer]

It also gains us reputation as someone who is open to making deals with Druchii which might close some doors for us, it will likely make any attempts to create long term relationship between Nagarythes and Grey Order much more difficult.

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If we want to avoid the backlash of dealing with Druchii I wonder if we could launder the negotiations through Laurelorn. They already deal with them anyway so it seems viable.

Since Laurelorn is a major contributor to the project and want the codes themselves it would make a lot of sense to have them be a major part in getting the codes anyway.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

No, I straight up disagree with this. Working Waystones is something everyone wants, number one. The idea that they wouldn't buy in is crazy. Ulthuan simply isn't going to be able to shut down our export capabilities here (nor would they want to? Unless we grab the magic and use it in Brettonia like Kislev, they'll be happy about new waystones. It literally sends Ulthuan more power).

Number 2: it's that their contributions are worth a lot less than their payment, not that their contributions aren't going to happen. Now that stuff has happened, they don't have near as much to contribute on. I believe Boney commented on us extracting payment (i.e. them giving us stuff for waystones).

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This specifically:

The Iron Orc thing was one price. The other price was having something functional to show. If you're at the point where you're talking about dotting Bretonnia with brand-new Waystones you're not at the point where you need to do favours to bring them to the table, you're at the point where you decide what concessions you're going to wring out of them in exchange for permanently improving their entire country in literally every way.

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Personally, I massively prefer just keeping Brettonia out of the circle until they ask to come in and we can wring out concessions. Like, in universe Mathilde's noted how Brettonia aren't exactly stalwart allies:

A purely mechanical solution could be duplicated by anyone, and one that relies on only Wind magic could be reverse-engineered by, say, the Damsels of Bretonnia. While they were allies of the Empire during the Great War Against Chaos, they've also been at war with the Empire twice since then. Needing Eonir or Dwarven assistance to erect new Waystones will make them stick to the terms of whatever deal ends up being struck between the two powers.

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And overall, we don't need Brettonia's buy in to convince Ulthuan, because 'unity' isn't the problem. The problem is convincing the elves that maybe the primitive humans can be begrudgingly trusted with the command codes to finangle this shit, and increasing the number of humans involved in the group asking for them isn't gonna help all that much. It's just not something I wanna go into until we have a strong enough bargaining position they won't spring anything on Mathilde.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

I think letting Bretonnia buy in as "equals" who are contributing to the project, rather than pointing out that they missed the boat, would be politically better, even if it means we end up with less overall. Even if they can't provide magical expertise, there's still the political situation to be aware of, and that situation is "every 50-80 years or so Bretonnia tries to invade the Empire".

We also need their understanding of the Asrai, because two of the Empire's emergency magical flood channels flow through their forest, and I'd rather have a damsel helping us deal with them than anyone else on the project.

I suppose it depends on your objectives. If you objective is to build a waystone, then we're almost done with that, and further recruitment seems pointless. But the waystone is just the tip of the iceberg—it's about bringing magical experts together in the face of a mutual threat, and build the foundations of international diplomacy and interdisciplinary scholarship between them. Nordland can't move on the Eonir because Kislev has a vested interest in them. Laurelorn can negotiate with the Druchii as equals, because the Empire and the Karaz Ankor are treating them as equals.

If we bring Bretonnia into that circle, not as clients purchasing a service, but as partners contributing to that service, that just strengthens the chains of diplomacy between all nations, and gives everyone more leverage against outsiders and less leverage against each other.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

I think letting Bretonnia buy in as "equals" who are contributing to the project, rather than pointing out that they missed the boat, would be politically better, even if it means we end up with less overall. Even if they can't provide magical expertise, there's still the political situation to be aware of, and that situation is "every 50-80 years or so Bretonnia tries to invade the Empire".

We also need their understanding of the Asrai, because two of the Empire's emergency magical flood channels flow through their forest, and I'd rather have a damsel helping us deal with them than anyone else on the project.

I suppose it depends on your objectives. If you objective is to build a waystone, then we're almost done with that, and further recruitment seems pointless. But the waystone is just the tip of the iceberg—it's about bringing magical experts together in the face of a mutual threat, and build the foundations of international diplomacy and interdisciplinary scholarship between them. Nordland can't move on the Eonir because Kislev has a vested interest in them. Laurelorn can negotiate with the Druchii as equals, because the Empire and the Karaz Ankor are treating them as equals.

If we bring Bretonnia into that circle, not as clients purchasing a service, but as partners contributing to that service, that just strengthens the chains of diplomacy between all nations, and gives everyone more leverage against outsiders and less leverage against each other.

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I mean, look, when it comes to diplomacy, you don't actually need to be nice for there to be no hard feelings. You can just play hardball sometimes! And those 'sometimes' include when we got snubbed for not bowing and scraping to them. You know how we manage the political situation when/if we get the Waystones up and running? We get a permanent peace agreement from them as a concession and hold that shit to their throat next time they start rattling sabers, because clearly goodwill hasn't worked out for the Empire the last couple of wars. We don't need to strain to maintain agreements as equals to actually just be equals, it's sometimes just as useful to have them be paying for a service, because then that can also improve relations between nations as we singlehandedly improve their entire country.

 

[ReImagined]

I think letting Bretonnia buy in as "equals" who are contributing to the project, rather than pointing out that they missed the boat, would be politically better, even if it means we end up with less overall. Even if they can't provide magical expertise, there's still the political situation to be aware of, and that situation is "every 50-80 years or so Bretonnia tries to invade the Empire".

We also need their understanding of the Asrai, because two of the Empire's emergency magical flood channels flow through their forest, and I'd rather have a damsel helping us deal with them than anyone else on the project.

I suppose it depends on your objectives. If you objective is to build a waystone, then we're almost done with that, and further recruitment seems pointless. But the waystone is just the tip of the iceberg—it's about bringing magical experts together in the face of a mutual threat, and build the foundations of international diplomacy and interdisciplinary scholarship between them. Nordland can't move on the Eonir because Kislev has a vested interest in them. Laurelorn can negotiate with the Druchii as equals, because the Empire and the Karaz Ankor are treating them as equals.

If we bring Bretonnia into that circle, not as clients purchasing a service, but as partners contributing to that service, that just strengthens the chains of diplomacy between all nations, and gives everyone more leverage against outsiders and less leverage against each other.

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The objective of 'spread Waystones across the continent, making things better for everyone' is better served by more contribution than less. The way to get them to contribute more is by having something to show off in advance because it gives us leverage. Weakening our bargaining position so they contribute less doesn't make sense to me. The stuff we get out of a buy-in is the same as the stuff we get out of negotiating with them later, just less of it.

 

[Tasoli]

I think letting Bretonnia buy in as "equals" who are contributing to the project, rather than pointing out that they missed the boat, would be politically better, even if it means we end up with less overall. Even if they can't provide magical expertise, there's still the political situation to be aware of, and that situation is "every 50-80 years or so Bretonnia tries to invade the Empire".

We also need their understanding of the Asrai, because two of the Empire's emergency magical flood channels flow through their forest, and I'd rather have a damsel helping us deal with them than anyone else on the project.

I suppose it depends on your objectives. If you objective is to build a waystone, then we're almost done with that, and further recruitment seems pointless. But the waystone is just the tip of the iceberg—it's about bringing magical experts together in the face of a mutual threat, and build the foundations of international diplomacy and interdisciplinary scholarship between them. Nordland can't move on the Eonir because Kislev has a vested interest in them. Laurelorn can negotiate with the Druchii as equals, because the Empire and the Karaz Ankor are treating them as equals.

If we bring Bretonnia into that circle, not as clients purchasing a service, but as partners contributing to that service, that just strengthens the chains of diplomacy between all nations, and gives everyone more leverage against outsiders and less leverage against each other.

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I absolutely hate this reasoning. Are they so belligent that they must be placeted with hand outs in order to have good relations or are they too poor but pridefull that we must make them feel "equals" by giving them hand outs.

Both is absolutely wrong from what we know, but if we think they are poor and belligrent, it is more reason to keep them out rather than waste our limited resources.

But if they are rich and friendly they can pay for the product.

At any rate waystone project is not universal solution to diplomacy and I am absolutely against treating this projects as a tool of diplomacy at the expense of our research.

 

[Bilbo Baggins]

[x] [RIDER] Mathilde on a Shadowsteed

 

[Glau]

The problem is convincing the elves that maybe the primitive humans can be begrudgingly trusted with the command codes to finangle this shit, and increasing the number of humans involved in the group asking for them isn't gonna help all that much

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I mean, the alternative to more humans is more rebels and dwarves, so more humans might actually be a net positive.

 

[Abhorsen]

I think letting Bretonnia buy in as "equals" who are contributing to the project, rather than pointing out that they missed the boat, would be politically better, even if it means we end up with less overall. Even if they can't provide magical expertise, there's still the political situation to be aware of, and that situation is "every 50-80 years or so Bretonnia tries to invade the Empire".

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Not how politics works. Doing this means that we won't have done Brettonia a favor, they will have done us a favor (and locally, that's the truth that will spread). I mean, just look at the French IRL who they are based on: we let DeGaulle march into Paris: he immediately assigned full credit for Paris' liberation to France. But this isn't even a French thing, it's an international politics thing: if you are brought into an common cause before the end, and your side wins, the country tends to tell itself that it was an important cause, and more, if they contribute at all frequently assigns itself as the chief cause of success regardless of reality.

Trust me, if anything this will encourage Brettonia to declare war on us (or just support Marienburg) if we don't share the spoils equally with them (i.e. if we prioritize fixing up Kislev and the Empire before them).

Instead, come to them from a position of power, saying "We got these waystones that can be built in your territory, and we'll build them for a price", which innately carries the connotation of "we can't build them if we are at war".


Also, it discounts that inviting new people on at this point kinda screws the early entrants. We are creating a rivalrous good: new waystones. Each new waystone can only go to one place, and they take time, money, rare resources, and expertise to create even after the research is done. Simply sharing the good with everyone else equally is not just. People who put in effort/investment (of secrets) have first right to the benefits of it, not people coming in when the job is halfway done already.

The price we offer cannot be free or at cost either. We can assign our, personal profit to zero, but other members of the waystone project also have a right to say who benefits, and should be able to demand payment as well. We can just ask for a peace treaty, but how does that help the Dwarves, Eonir, or Kislev? They should also benefit from deals we make.

 

[Feim]

I think letting Bretonnia buy in as "equals" who are contributing to the project, rather than pointing out that they missed the boat, would be politically better, even if it means we end up with less overall. Even if they can't provide magical expertise, there's still the political situation to be aware of, and that situation is "every 50-80 years or so Bretonnia tries to invade the Empire".

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why do people not realise that in this kind of environment selling the service to them at all is being rather generous diplomatically speaking.

and a trade agreement, bit of an odd one but still a trade agreement, is a very useful way to bind two nations together. especially since the current waystone designs look like they need things that the brettonians can't produce. and as such requires our help to install, and/or repair.


now while logically speaking more winds being drained out of a location, no matter where that location is, is a net good for everyone. on matters of the foreign policy of an empire when concerning a non-allied and sometimes very hostile state, and as such how our actions will be percieved, the usual response to them wanting in on the benefits of a massive infrastructure project that will increase the prosperity of the participant nations massively that they did not help* with is to just say, more politely, 'no.' and 'get fucked. we are not empowering a foreign and, often enough to be relevant, hostile nation' essentially. there's more nuance, but it boils down to that.

letting them buy their way in though both causes them to be more invested, literally, which is good because the way the human mind works with costs and gifts and the like. and, also gets us things which makes it much easier to sell to the higher ups.

*this is an important detail if they had actually participated, or in this case, are brought in just before they would not have been considered part of the projects success then their claiming access to the benefits of the project would be a matter of course.

which is bad**, because that means there is nothing actually binding brettonia to the empires well-being, them having to buy them off us creates the perception that if they go to war with us, that's it, they lose out completely. which would lessen the desire to go to war with the empire. and unlike the other participants, brettonia has both reason and desire to go to war with the empire fairly often.


**if we turn out to actually need brettonia then of course, we bring them in. the loss to potential relations and leverage from them being more able to work around us as an early participant is well worth getting waystones up and running.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

I suppose it depends on your objectives. If you objective is to build a waystone, then we're almost done with that, and further recruitment seems pointless. But the waystone is just the tip of the iceberg—it's about bringing magical experts together in the face of a mutual threat, and build the foundations of international diplomacy and interdisciplinary scholarship between them. Nordland can't move on the Eonir because Kislev has a vested interest in them. Laurelorn can negotiate with the Druchii as equals, because the Empire and the Karaz Ankor are treating them as equals.

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Eh... I'm going to be way less ambitious and pick just having the Waystones.

This is already the Old World's Manhattan project except even better because it literally makes it harder for Chaos to do its thing. We can just take the win for what's probably the most impactful research project in the past three to four thousand year and also grab the extra diplomatic wins for Kislev and the Eonir.


Bretonnia can just pay its way.

 

[Parabola]

Remember also that getting the Damsels' support on the project could take the form of something besides them physically joining and having another cat to herd.

We might be able to ask for a map of the nexus in Bretonnia so as to not need to map it ourselves, or access to some of their magical texts. That alone would be worth it without really giving them extra priority.

Edit: Maybe we could even ask for help in getting a contact with Athel Loren.

 

[Derpmind]

It's also good, you privately observe, that you have two solutions that can't be replicated by any other power on the continent. A purely mechanical solution could be duplicated by anyone, and one that relies on only Wind magic could be reverse-engineered by, say, the Damsels of Bretonnia.

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Hmm... Could a purely mechanical Waystone be possible? I'm not saying we should aim to design one, but: The Runes are simple enough that anyone can carve them, even if they'd be less effective than a Runesmith doing so. The Capstone can be made of an unenchanted Titan-metal alloy, and it's possible to make Titan-metal without magic. The Leyline Keyphrases seem to require magic to use, but other Leyline designs might not. (And while it's bad for the river, you can just dump Dhar in along with the rest of the winds and it'll work.) The only question is if the Foundation component could be made mechanically, and we'll find out more about that later this turn.

Mechanical Tributaries... just make mini-mech-Waystones, I guess. Nexuses I have no idea how they even work, and neither does Mathilde.

 

[Mopman43]

If we do get the Damsels in the project, we should probably keep quiet about the 'send the magic in the Waystones to a deity' thing?

It's not feasible in the Empire because of factional disputes but the Damsels would of course choose the Lady if presented with the choice.

I'm not sure what exactly would happen if they copied Kislev on that, but it wouldn't just be their own magic they're sending her way, it'd be all the magic collected in the Empire as well.

 

[Feim]

Hmm... Could a purely mechanical Waystone be possible? I'm not saying we should aim to design one, but: The Runes are simple enough that anyone can carve them, even if they'd be less effective than a Runesmith doing so. The Capstone can be made of an unenchanted Titan-metal alloy, and it's possible to make Titan-metal without magic. The Leyline Keyphrases seem to require magic to use, but other Leyline designs might not. (And while it's bad for the river, you can just dump Dhar in along with the rest of the winds and it'll work.) The only question is if the Foundation component could be made mechanically, and we'll find out more about that later this turn.

Mechanical Tributaries... just make mini-mech-Waystones, I guess. Nexuses I have no idea how they even work, and neither does Mathilde.

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most of the original elf-dwarf waystones seem to be pretty mechanical already. titan metal with the rune carved into it does all the pulling and pushing down on it's own, and dhar will form on it's own so long as two winds are forced together.

which doesn't seem like it would be difficult to design something physical to cause that when the attractive property of dhar is not present, so when the winds arn't pulled inwards by the dhar they push eachother far enough back to fall into a runoff pipe that forces them into dhar further down.

the only thing I think that isn't mechanical, and can't be mechanical, is the connection to other waystones. that seems to be an active process performed by the network overseer.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

I'm not sure what exactly would happen if they copied Kislev on that, but it wouldn't just be their own magic they're sending her way, it'd be all the magic collected in the Empire as well.

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We'd just cut them out of the Empire's network.

 

[Sparsebeard]

Wow, people are really peeved that Bretonnia didn't join for free when we asked.

I get that people want some Bretonnia Shinnies, but ultimatly, I think getting them to buy in as soon as possible is much more valuable to the Waystone Project than waiting to get a finished product and blackmailling them to give us stuff for information that everybody else gets for free (sure they helped, but we also paid to bring them in so it balances out in my opinion.

Sure, Bretonnia fought the Empire in the past, but so did the Eonir and Kislev. The Waystone Project should be above those petty concerns of rulers, an idealistic project to repair worldwide infrastructure and to adress global problems collectively. Not some petty shit that ends up delaying implementation in Bretonnia just so Mathilde can wring out some books for her library or something.

EDITED : Because I was kind of a jerk in conveying my point.

 

[Mopman43]

We'd just cut them out of the Empire's network.

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We can't, there's no other path.

We'd have to create a new set of Waystones + Leylines through the Border Princes or find a way to send it straight through the Vaults.

 

[Thomasfoolery]

Wow, people are really peeved that Bretonnia didn't join for free when we asked. I find it kind of pathetic to want to get concessions from them when we paid everybody else to join the project just because we are butthurt and petty.

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This is a pretty ridiculous characterization of people. It's not "Petty" to expect payment for products.

I get that people want some Bretonnia Shinnies, but ultimatly, I think getting them to buy in as soon as possible is much more valuable to the Waystone Project than waiting to get a finished product and blackmailling them to give us stuff for information that everybody else gets for free (sure they helped, but we also paid to bring them in so it balances out in my opinion.

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And neither is it blackmail, to expect payment.

 

[Boney]

I find it kind of pathetic to want to get concessions from them when we paid everybody else to join the project just because we are butthurt and petty.

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Is this really the way that you think this point should be communicated?

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

We can't, there's no other path.

We'd have to create a new set of Waystones + Leylines through the Border Princes or find a way to send it straight through the Vaults.

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River leyline through the Black Water Canal into Barak Varr.

It wouldn't be easy, mind, that's a long-arse river to run a single leyline through, but it's possible.

 

[Mopman43]

River leyline through the Black Water Canal into Barak Varr.

It wouldn't be easy, mind, that's a long-arse river to run a single leyline through, but it's possible.

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We'd need to reverse most of the leylines in the Empire and still need to push it up-river against the falls.

And find a way to hook it up to the Dwarf network.

I'm not saying there aren't potential options, but none of the potential options are things we're actually capable of yet, only theoretically.

 

[Glau]

I'm not sure what "mechanical" even means when looking at a solid-state device designed only to manipulate magic. Like, done without active spell work? Done in a way that people who can't sense magic could build one?

The second makes some sense in concept, but since those people would have no idea where to put them or if they are needed in an area, I'm not sure it makes enough sense to me.