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We can't, there's no other path.

There's Marinenburg to Ulthuan?

And also Albion works as a relay though Mathilde wouldn't know that as the Grey Lords weren't entirely cooperative.

I get that people want some Bretonnia Shinnies, but ultimatly, I think getting them to buy in as soon as possible is much more valuable to the Waystone Project than waiting to get a finished product and blackmailling them to give us stuff for information that everybody else gets for free (sure they helped, but we also paid to bring them in so it balances out in my opinion.

If other participants helped the project - and they did though the contributions varied - then they obviously didn't get the information for free.

For the matter whilst Mathilde did pay to set up the initial WEB MAT facilities the cooperation of most participants was quite cheap - indeed the Colleges have proven to be the most expensive of the lot in terms of favours but that also gave Mathilde the opportunity to forge a good relationship with the Light and Jade orders so it wasn't that bad.


Edit: House Tindomiel also had us over a barrel - but that's the risk of working with elves. They can get really good at politics.
 
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I'm not sure what "mechanical" even means when looking at a solid-state device designed only to manipulate magic. Like, done without active spell work? Done in a way that people who can't sense magic could build one?

The second makes some sense in concept, but since those people would have no idea where to put them or if they are needed in an area, I'm not sure it makes enough sense to me.

mechanical in this instance, using the context given in the original quote, means does not require magical ability. it is an entirely material construction that one could entirely automate with the only actual difficulty being making the concept of large scale automation for all the required parts a thing that isn't just a pie in the sky concept for idealists.

it is also actually incredibly easy to tell if one needs to go in an area without any magical ability whatsoever. is the location somewhere north, north east, north west, south, south east, south west, east, or, west of two other waystones? then if there isn't one there, put one there.

doubling up might not make much difference, but unless the thing turns out to have a limit on the absolute number of waystones then there is very little reason to care if a waystone's field of efficacy overlaps with anothers.
 
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There's Marinenburg to Ulthuan?

And also Albion works as a relay though Mathilde wouldn't know that as the Grey Lords weren't entirely cooperative.
The only route from Marienburg to Albion goes through Couronne and possibly L'Anguille.

Every route from the Empire to Ulthuan goes through Bretonnia. The one to Los Cabos has to go through all of Bretonnia, the one to Albion just goes through the top bit, but all of it goes through Bretonnia.

Hypothetically we might be able to start up the Bugmans Brewery-Karak Norn-Athel Loren route, but then that almost certainly goes to Los Cabos by way of Quenelles and Carcassonne.

Like I said, the only way to send the magic to Ulthuan without going through Bretonnia would be to create a new leyline path in the Border Princes or the Vaults to get to Tilea and subsequently Los Cabos.
 
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I'm not sure what "mechanical" even means when looking at a solid-state device designed only to manipulate magic. Like, done without active spell work? Done in a way that people who can't sense magic could build one?

The second makes some sense in concept, but since those people would have no idea where to put them or if they are needed in an area, I'm not sure it makes enough sense to me.
A purely mechanical Waystone would be possible to create by anyone regardless of their magical traditions, or even without one. And as we saw just this turn, it may be possible to construct a device that could sense magic without the device itself requiring magic to create. (Though for the Empire, they'd source the needed materials from the Gold College's magically-augmented chemistry regardless.) Plus, you need geographical knowledge to figure out optimal distribution of Waystones, not windsight.

A mechanical Waystone design would not be the best geopolitical move, for anyone involved in the Project, but theoretically it would maximize the distribution of Waystones since anyone could build one, given the right resources. No restrictions based on the secrets of magical traditions.

Edit: Given that Waystones can be abused quite a lot, this might just a bad idea entirely.
 
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Like I said, the only way to send the magic to Ulthuan without going through Bretonnia would be to create a new leyline path in the Border Princes or the Vaults to get to Tilea and subsequently Los Cabos.
Which is going to be impossible, because we'll have to:
1. Reverse the direction of a bunch of the Empire's leylines (we don't know how to do that)
2. Get the leyline keyphrases or find some other way of making leylines (because part of the route the magic needs to take doesn't have any rivers we could use for river leylines)
3. Get through Black Fire Pass, which means getting through a mountain pass, something we know is difficult and something the original network seems to achieve by putting nexuses right next to the mountains (and there's no working nexus near Black Fire Pass and we don't know how to create one)
4. And if we figure all of that out we'll have a connection to Tilea, which probably has to pass through Bretonnia anyway, because the only other apparent route to Los Cabos is through the Zombie Swamps and Skavenblight. (this is your friendly reminder that we should map Tilea)

So yeah, The Empire's magic is going to go through Bretonnia.
 
And if we figure all of that out we'll have a connection to Tilea, which probably has to pass through Bretonnia anyway, because the only other apparent route to Los Cabos is through the Zombie Swamps and Skavenblight. (this is your friendly reminder that we should map Tilea)
It's at least possible that the magic from Tilea goes over the Tilean Sea to Estalia directly.

We'd obviously need to map it to find out.
 
Since it's relevant to turn planning:

@Boney : Does Mathilde think that there's any hypothetical action that could be reasonably be done in Lothern, either by Mathilde or by someone else in WEB-MAT, which could lay some groundwork to make future negotiations with Ulthuan go more smoothly? Not the Waystone passphrase negotiations themselves, but a build-up action.

I've been kind of hoping that there is, since it gives me an excuse to have Johann or Egrimm come along for part of the Elfcation (both because I like their interactions on previous excursions and because it gives Eike a potential emergency button if we take her along), but I should probably check with the QM before getting too invested in it, huh? :thonk:

(It makes intuitive sense to me that it should be possible? Since while Ulthuan has 10 Kingdoms, Eataine is probably the most powerful one politically, and it should be possible to get some of Lothern's leadership at least somewhat aboard? But I can see a case for why it wouldn't be possible either.)
 
Adhoc vote count started by Nurgle on Jul 28, 2023 at 1:03 PM, finished with 1711 posts and 242 votes.


Vote seems to be settling.
 
Wow, people are really peeved that Bretonnia didn't join for free when we asked.

I get that people want some Bretonnia Shinnies, but ultimatly, I think getting them to buy in as soon as possible is much more valuable to the Waystone Project than waiting to get a finished product and blackmailling them to give us stuff for information that everybody else gets for free (sure they helped, but we also paid to bring them in so it balances out in my opinion.

Sure, Bretonnia fought the Empire in the past, but so did the Eonir and Kislev. The Waystone Project should be above those petty concerns of rulers, an idealistic project to repair worldwide infrastructure and to adress global problems collectively. Not some petty shit that ends up delaying implementation in Bretonnia just so Mathilde can wring out some books for her library or something.

EDITED : Because I was kind of a jerk in conveying my point.
I'm not annoyed at them at all. I'm simply approaching this rationally: Bretonian shinies are worth more than the help they can give to a half finished project where much of the base research has already occured.



Second, we are a grey wizard. Hoping for the best is all well and good, but this naive idea that everyone will band together versus outside threats has been shown to be wrong again and again. We cannot trust in people acting good or out of common best interest, as we all know the tragic story of the common green. What did Bretonia do during the Great War vs Chaos? A war that if lost, they were going to be overrun? Nearly nothing from what I can find on the wiki. Kislev knows this best of all, which is why they offered support initially only if the project was to be based in Kislev because they knew they were going to be afterthoughts.

The only solution is not to trust in mankind suddenly caring about the common good (because history in universe and IRL has long shown that they don't). No, we use a project to force others to act in the common good in order to get access to the waystones.

An actual nonaggression pact from Bretonia for the Empire. Maybe a promise of aid in the next chaos war for Kislev, but promises are fleeting, so they might want something else more immediate. Likely support for Karak Hirn for the Dwarves, or perhaps an Errantry war to retake a Karak. And something for the Eonir (though that might be the Empire, Kislev, and Dwarves owing the Eonir some favors for the Eonir's share of Bretonia's payment).



Third, requiring payment causes buy in. Things provided to you for free aren't considered as valuable, even if they are dead useful. Does this matter a ton when it comes to waystones though? Surely everyone knows to want one? Well, as we can see from the Empire Noble that wanted to carve his waystone into a statue of himself, free stuff isn't valued, even if it is valuable. To him, it was just a free rock. If, in contrast, that rock is an expensive rock that you had to pay for (i.e. a luxury good), then it becomes valuable to the Noble, who can brag about it, and to destroy it would be just as dumb as melting down the gold silverware, but also illegal. Take a page out of the Chaos Dwarves book: export Waystones as luxury goods and everyone wants them. Is it dumb? Yes. Its also how the world works.



Finally, crucially, the idea that forcing Bretonnia to pay is a punishment completely misunderstands how trade works. When person X trades good A to person Y for good B, X values B more than X values A, and Y values A more than Y values B. So both sides benefit. It creates a win-win scenario, as both X and Y are better off than before.

For example, Bretonnia's next Errantry War targeting the retaking of a Karak costs Bretonnia little, as it's really just asking for a shift in targets. But to the dwarves, it's incredibly valuable. Providing Waystone secrets to Bretonnia costs us little (providing them with waystones themselves costs us a fair bit though), but helps Bretonnia immeasurably more.
 
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All this talk kinda brings up the importance to map all the Old World, right?

I know it might be boring, but we kinda need to do so at some point.
I think it'd be interesting in its own right, but compared to the likes of our other personal or WEB-MAT options, it's really losing out.
 
If we do get the Damsels in the project, we should probably keep quiet about the 'send the magic in the Waystones to a deity' thing?

It's not feasible in the Empire because of factional disputes but the Damsels would of course choose the Lady if presented with the choice.

I'm not sure what exactly would happen if they copied Kislev on that, but it wouldn't just be their own magic they're sending her way, it'd be all the magic collected in the Empire as well.
I was curious about this, so I looked up what we have learned about what the Ancient Widow does with the modified Kislev network.

"They took the leylines of the Elves and turned it into their own vortex," Niedzwenka says with a snort. "Around and around, Erengrad to Kislev City to Praag to Castle Alexandronov and back to Erengrad again, spinning it from Winds to Ice for the Widow's Witches to use against Kislev's enemies.
I seems like she does turn the Winds into some form of earthbound or divine magic that empowers the Ice Witches, though I don't think it empowers the Widow herself.

You look to Zlata. "And if the flow was maintained instead of being dammed, and energy was being taken out at least as fast as it is being added, then it could last indefinitely." Zlata returns your gaze, gives it some thought, and nods.

...

"The only other possibility would be divine," you observe. "A deity willing to dedicate Themselves to a land and take upon Them the burden of purifying a constant stream of Dhar within that land into divine energy."
In fact it seems like a burden on the Widow, that she has to spend her time and power purifying the Dhar into divine energy.

So my conclusion is that while the Damsels would probably like the idea of modifying the Network to empower them, and we shouldn't tell them about what Kislev has done if we don't have to, there are costs and they would need to convince the Lady it is a good use of her power. Kislev might have modified their part of the Network because the flow out from Kislev may go through a corrupted Nexus in the Forest of Shadows. In that case, the reasoning be that it is better for Kislev to use the energy than feed it to the enemies of man down stream.
 
Kislev might have modified their part of the Network because the flow out from Kislev may go through a corrupted Nexus in the Forest of Shadows.
We know where at least one hook-up was- Gross Selon, in Ostermark, which is still connected to the network.

I expect the Ice Witches did it and maintain it because they get something out of it, not out of charity.
 
I think it'd be interesting in its own right, but compared to the likes of our other personal or WEB-MAT options, it's really losing out.
I like maps. I had an entire post about them. But I will admit that if given the choice between "continue banging your head against Waystone construction just in case you manage a breakthrough", which is a gamble, and "map out the Waystone Network" which is a guaranteed action with smaller benefits, I'd probably go for headbanging. I'm a gacha player at heart.
 
Remember also that getting the Damsels' support on the project could take the form of something besides them physically joining and having another cat to herd.

We might be able to ask for a map of the nexus in Bretonnia so as to not need to map it ourselves, or access to some of their magical texts. That alone would be worth it without really giving them extra priority.

Edit: Maybe we could even ask for help in getting a contact with Athel Loren.

Why do we want a map of Bretonia's stones? That much that would seem to mostly be useful to the... er Bretionians. As for getting some kind of introduction to the wood elves out of them that would be part of actual negotiations not just paying them to get in out of pity and then hoping they have that wood elf diplomacy on hand. If we make this proper negotiations with them on the outside where they reasonably belong because they did not contribute we do not have to guess if they have that access.
 
We know where at least one hook-up was- Gross Selon, in Ostermark, which is still connected to the network.

I expect the Ice Witches did it and maintain it because they get something out of it, not out of charity.
I had forgotten about that, that broken connection is missing from the waystone network map that I checked.

I agree though that the Ice Witches likely did all the work to modify the Network because they benefit from it. I am just not sure that the Lady could handle all of Bretonnia and the Empire's Dhar, and even if she could, it might be enough work for her that she doesn't want to. She could just tell the Damsels to let the energy keep going to the Great Vortex because she has better things to do, however I don't want to rely on the Lady making good choices so I agree we should stay quiet about it. I am just trying to make the point that even if they knew it was an option, Bretonnia might not copy what Kislev did.
 
So since there's a lot of desire to go to Ulthuan soon shouldn't we consider if it is worth bringing them into the Waystone project?
why would we do that? they know how to make waystones already and specifically don't want us to.

the only way we will likely get anything from them is by pitting both their current dislike of the druchi and the progress we have already made* against their desire to not let us interact with the system when they come to the eonir in response to the druchi's presence. to get the command phrases required to properly hook up our current stuff to the existing network.

*and as such the proof that we will mess with it, and will make headway. and if they don't want us to accidently fuck up the entire network by our meddling (which is why they don't want us touching it iirc) then they best tell us how to do it properly.
 
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Since it's relevant to turn planning:

@Boney : Does Mathilde think that there's any hypothetical action that could be reasonably be done in Lothern, either by Mathilde or by someone else in WEB-MAT, which could lay some groundwork to make future negotiations with Ulthuan go more smoothly? Not the Waystone passphrase negotiations themselves, but a build-up action.

I've been kind of hoping that there is, since it gives me an excuse to have Johann or Egrimm come along for part of the Elfcation (both because I like their interactions on previous excursions and because it gives Eike a potential emergency button if we take her along), but I should probably check with the QM before getting too invested in it, huh? :thonk:

(It makes intuitive sense to me that it should be possible? Since while Ulthuan has 10 Kingdoms, Eataine is probably the most powerful one politically, and it should be possible to get some of Lothern's leadership at least somewhat aboard? But I can see a case for why it wouldn't be possible either.)

What makes Mathilde better equipped than the thread to tackle that question? She knows barely anything about Ulthuan.
 
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