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used badly (chaff essentially, rather than the powerful skrimishers they could be right from the start, or powerful linebreakers given equipment and training) and thus they perform badly.
Whil I agree that Beastmen are used poorly by non-Beastmen leaders, I'll point out that mixed race Chaos armies have better options for both these things generally. Most Beastmen are Gors, who are tougher (or perhaps simply more inured to pain, given their lives?) and slightly faster than humans, but have no other advantages. Meanwhile, a Chaos Lord can employ actual cavalry for skirmishers, or Chaos Warriors to fill a need for heavy infantry. Beastmen are almost better used as independent commands. Set them loose to fight as they want, and allow them to burn and pillage the countryside, forcing your enemy to choose between destroying the bands of roving raiders that are killing their people (and thereby, their income) or allowing your main army to march unopposed.
 
Whil I agree that Beastmen are used poorly by non-Beastmen leaders, I'll point out that mixed race Chaos armies have better options for both these things generally. Most Beastmen are Gors, who are tougher (or perhaps simply more inured to pain, given their lives?) and slightly faster than humans, but have no other advantages. Meanwhile, a Chaos Lord can employ actual cavalry for skirmishers, or Chaos Warriors to fill a need for heavy infantry. Beastmen are almost better used as independent commands. Set them loose to fight as they want, and allow them to burn and pillage the countryside, forcing your enemy to choose between destroying the bands of roving raiders that are killing their people (and thereby, their income) or allowing your main army to march unopposed.
They're all woodsmen, so they make good scouts and skirmishers. And going out and acting as a screen is what scouts/skirmishers do, where the pre-battle part of that is way more important. As for beastmen losing out to cavalry or chaos warriors? Of course they do. Those guys have bloody plate armor and the best of everything. That comparison is inherently unfair, that was my point. What would the beastmen equivalent of Chaos Warriors look like? Veteran, trained fighters with high end armor and weapons and maybe mounts.
 
Still stuck on the 'if beastmen come from mutated humans and domesticated animals, how do they dominate entire continents with no humans or domestic animals on them?' question...

Do we have any reason to assume the beastmen on Not!Antarctica have any similarities at all to imperial beastmen? Besides the maps that lump all beastmen together?

Because peaceful penguin beastmen would be kind of awesome.
 
They're all woodsmen, so they make good scouts and skirmishers. And going out and acting as a screen is what scouts/skirmishers do, where the pre-battle part of that is way more important. As for beastmen losing out to cavalry or chaos warriors? Of course they do. Those guys have bloody plate armor and the best of everything. That comparison is inherently unfair, that was my point. What would the beastmen equivalent of Chaos Warriors look like? Veteran, trained fighters with high end armor and weapons and maybe mounts.
Skirmishers are supposed to not engage in combat though. Like, they're there to harass and delay an enemy, or tempt them into making mistakes, not engage in actual combat. And Beastmen from the Empire don't fight like that. They do also lack equipment, but that's a secondary problem to them lacking the mindset needed to operate like that.

Yes, but my point is that you're saying that a Chaos commander is using Beastmen poorly by not going to great length and expense to equip an auxiliary force that only appears once the army has moved significantly south rather than just using those resources on the forces they've had before that. They're frankly not. There's just no advantage to trying to make the Beastmen the core of an army rather than using what already exists and works. Especially when Chaos Warriors and Maruader Horsemen and such are going to be bringing their own equipment, so it's not like a Chaos commander is actually withholding this equipment or anything.
 
Still stuck on the 'if beastmen come from mutated humans and domesticated animals, how do they dominate entire continents with no humans or domestic animals on them?' question...

Do we have any reason to assume the beastmen on Not!Antarctica have any similarities at all to imperial beastmen? Besides the maps that lump all beastmen together?

Because peaceful penguin beastmen would be kind of awesome.
Why the assumption that they only come from domesticated animals?
 
Cows, sheep, goats, pigs, doves, chickens...

Are there any chaos-worshiping beastmen who are deer, or bears, or idk, beavers?

The ones that seem to come from wild animals (Ind, Cathay) don't seem to worship chaos, so I'm leaning towards them being different species with different origins.
 
Cows, sheep, goats, pigs, doves, chickens...

Are there any chaos-worshiping beastmen who are deer, or bears, or idk, beavers?

The ones that seem to come from wild animals (Ind, Cathay) don't seem to worship chaos, so I'm leaning towards them being different species with different origins.
The common Old World Beastmen do generally take the form of goats, bovines, and equines, but that's mainly about GW picking that design space for their models.

I don't see any reason why mutation into Beastmen would be exclusively something that occurs to domesticated animals.

The ones that seem to come from wild animals (Ind, Cathay) don't seem to worship chaos, so I'm leaning towards them being different species with different origins.
That assumes that Tigermen and Monkey Warriors came from mutated Tigers and Monkeys. They might simply be another humanoid race with no particular connection to Chaos.
 
The Southern Chaos Wastes Beastmen, what little is known about them, mainly seem to replace the man part with demon. The Northern Chaos Wastes Beastmen are just valued members of their tribes who have been visibly blessed by the gods.
 
I don't see any reason why mutation into Beastmen would be exclusively something that occurs to domesticated animals.

Because of the theming of corruption and anti-civilization associated with the imperial beastmen works better if they are civilization inverted rather than something that was never connected. As domesticated animals are bringing the wild under control, having just domestic animals go 'wild' and dangerous is explicitly the undoing of that process.

Although I do wonder what a squirrel beastmen would look like.

That assumes that Tigermen and Monkey Warriors came from mutated Tigers and Monkeys. They might simply be another humanoid race with no particular connection to Chaos.

Isn't that what I said?
 
Wild animals kind of need to have at least a level of resistance to Beastmanification. There are just a lot of animals which don't really have any way of taking effective cover from Morrslieb and even most of those which do won't have those shelters be as sturdy as most human made ones. If the "even a moment's glimpse at Morrsleib through a poorly latched window and you're dead or mutated" thing held for every animal on the planet you'd expect the biosphere to look a lot different, as would the demographics of beastmen. Of course, resistance doesn't need to imply immunity.
 
Apropos of nothing, but I just want to note for next turn's socials (Turn 43, to be clear) that it looks like Mandred's Dooming is coming up.

I was rereading and noticed his birth was 19 turns ago and wanted to point this out lest you, I, or (Ranald forfend) Boney forget about it.
 
I've been poking at my previous speculative turnplans some more, and I think I've cooked up something spicy:

Turn 43
1: Morbs
2: Foundation Prototype?
3: Invite Damsels (Father)
4: Waystone Nexus - Forest of Shadows (Father)
5: Orodreth Negotiations (Father)

KAU: ???
EIC: Insert agents in Nordland
SERENITY: AV Book 1/2
EIKE: Negotiations, Bretonnia (Carcassone), Tradecraft with Hochlander

Rationale: Between likely not needing a followup apparition action and splitting the AV Book across two Serenity turns, it's possible to dig out enough free actions that we can do the Morbs and start on AV on a Father turn. We do lose the potential safety net of Gambler on Morbs, but I think it's worth it?

I'm choosing to be pessimistic in turn planning about there being a followup foundation action, but if there isn't we can just start creating the waystone here.

We probably do want to keep the book fully written by Mathilde - I was more open to involving Max back when I thought Thorek was already a contributor, but the power of the flex of slapping the book down with only Mathilde's name on it compels me.

I do want to do the Orodreth negotiations. Even in the "fail state" where the Father side of the coin doesn't apply, they're still a house open to integration that hasn't yet found a personal niche in contact with the Empire, and helping them will stabilize the political situation in Laurelorn in our favor - plus we'll gain a data point about whether Lileath is a daughter, which when combined with data about whether the Lady is a daughter generally will help map out the web of relations of the gods.

Turn 44
OW: Assemble Waystone ?
1: Druchii Negotiations
2: Johann: Punch Sylvania (Protector)
3: Max, Johann, Egrimm: Map Tilea, Estalia
WEB: Egrimm: Lothern Negotiations
4: Elfcation 1/3 (Protector)
5: Elfcation 2/3 (Protector)

Rationale: This is the moment where Redshirt truly began cooking and became Heisenberg.

We're going to be using the Protector anyway, so why not do the Dammerlichtriter legend-building on the same turn as the Elfcation? Egrimm is a Lord Magister, which I think makes him a better candidate for coming along on the trip to do some negotiations in Lothern, since the few Dip points he loses compared to Johann he makes up for by having a slightly higher status and ability to negotiate on behalf of the project. Plus Egrimm is likely to take being invited to Elfland to do important project negotiations better than he is being dragged to Sylvania to help Mathilde build her legend.

And if we're using a Johann action and an Egrimm action, it just makes sense to set things up so the remaining WEB-MAT action is also useful. I think mapping Tilea and Estalia fits the bill - it's useful, because it means we'll have a full map of the Old World's connections to Ulthuan (minus Albion) ready in time for negotiations with Ulthuan. It makes sense in-universe too - the ship we charter to Ulthuan can sail out of Estalia, so we can do a Tilea-Estalia route, mapping as we go, and ending at the port, with Johann and Max then doing follow-up to flesh out the map details while we're gone.

And in terms of flexes... here, Mathilde drops a working Waystone, Morbs, and the AV Book, and then fucks off to the south, and then from there to Elfland, before anyone can corner her about it. It's practically the fabled OmegaFlex. :V

KAU: ???
EIC: Orodreth followup?
SERENITY: AV Book 2 / 2
EIKE: Sailing, Task in Lothern

Turn 45
1: Elfcation 3/3 (Protector)
2: Waystones: Something in Kislev
3: Waystones: Something in the Karaz Ankor
4: Waystones: Something in Bretonnia
5: Ulthuan Negotiations (Gambler/Deceiver?)

KAU: ???
EIC: ???
SERENITY: ???
EIKE: ???

Rationale: This is about the best possible setup for Ulthuan negotiations we can manage. We'll have a working waystone. We'll have an understanding of the connections to Ulthuan. We'll have buy-in from almost every meaningful polity in the Old World, which we can highlight with immediate work prior to the negotiation. We'll have the potential negotiations with the Druchii as a backstop. We'll have whatever Egrimm and Mathilde manage to accomplish while in Ulthuan personally. And we'll have a refreshed Coin to use on it, either the Gambler or the Deceiver. I legitimately think that we can get the codes out of Ulthuan with this kind of a diplomatic setup.

Thoughts?
 
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Don't we have the lizardman papers being fresh next turn assuming we don't flub this turn's research roll? Wouldn't we work on that first with Serenity to get that freshness bonus?
 
1. How dare you inflict all this awesomness on us when none of it is happening anytime soon.

2. One of the major reasons this turn wasn't a father turn to begin with is that people want to wait until we have a working waystone before we recruit Brettonia. I honestly think that will be your biggest hurdle.

3. Those EIC actions don't really have any synergy. It's been brought up before but if you're doing everything else anyway, a father turn would be a perfect chance for breaking into Kislev via the cult of Kalita; And if we want to buy stuff at Lothern we should probably do the sell Ilthimar action.
 
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Aside from the fact that we're not using the Deceiver on the Druchii negotiations (and I can't really see where to fit that in either*), I see nothing I object to in the plan. I'd happily vote for something with this framework, unless something wild pops up.

*Unless we push elfcation back a turn, so we do T43 Father, T44 Deceiver, T45 Protector? That might actually cause a riot though.

That said, what will Egrimm actually be negotiating for in Lothern? You have a separate action for the Ulthuan negotiations in T45, so I'm a little confused on what his job is.
 
makes sense in-universe too - the ship we charter to Ulthuan can sail out of Estalia, so we can do a Tilea-Estalia route, mapping as we go, and ending at the port, with Johann and Max then doing follow-up to flesh out the map details while we're gone.

I do like the idea of not giving money to Marienburg...

In your final turn, we might want to consider prioritizing some of the neutral imperial provinces who could bring an army on behalf of Laurelorn, so they've got stones with the Elves' maker's mark stamped on them when thinking about who to support as the ulrican thing escalates.
 
2. One of the major reasons this turn wasn't a father turn is that people want to wait until we have a working waystone before we recruit Brettonia. I think that will be your biggest hurdle.

This might address itself. If there isn't a foundation followup action, then we can just do the Waystone prototype on the Father turn and explicitly note that we want to do it first - Boney's historically been accommodating when it comes to the order actions happen in a turn.

3. Those EIC actions don't really have any synergy. It's been brought up before but if you're doing everything else anyway, a father turn would be a perfect chance for breaking into Kislev via the cult of Kalita and if we want to buy stuff at Lothern we should probably do the sell Ilthimar action.

I'd be willing to switch those up, they're fairly minor parts of the plan as things go. If we did the Ithilmar action on Turn 45, do you think we'd get the funds in time for the trip? I'm concerned we might not.
 
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I am looking forward to a druichi negotiation so we can get books, knowledge of druichi attacks and books. But I would like to do the Ilthimar actions soon. While going to Ulthua with a lot of money so we can bust the markets is my dream I think we are going to need a lot of money. Eventually we are going to have to retake waystones that is going to involve armies. Luckily Mathilde knows a dragon and elf who can kill armies.
 
If we did the Ithilmar action on Turn 45, do you think we'd get the funds in time for the trip? I'm concerned we might not.
Considering it's always been described as a single-use windfall I honestly think we would, yeah.

Plus this quote saying all the actual profit will immediately go to Mathilde alone:
The EIC will take back the amount it invested plus any expenses or opportunity costs of having done so and the rest of the windfall will go to Mathilde.
 
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