- Location
- Utrecht
We have problems with the human part of the equation.
Verena would probably be fine with KAU.
Hell, from a certain perspective, KAU aims to be for humanity what the Tower of Hoeth was for the Asur.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Verena would probably be fine with KAU.
Hell, from a certain perspective, KAU aims to be for humanity what the Tower of Hoeth was for the Asur.
i was kidding
We do not have beef with Verena. We have beef with a single branch of Verena's Cult, a Cult which is famousely uncentralized. The point stands, though, that it is extremely doubtful that the mages of the Tower of Hoeth will count as followers of Lileath for the purpose of the coin, even if the coin applies to Lileath.
If we must test Lileath on the same turn we test the Lady - and for the record I don't think that's a great idea - then we're probably better off trying to curry favour with House Orodreth somehow. They at least are actually Lileath worshippers, and it might even synergize with Elfcation since we could talk with them about their homeland and get thousands of years out of date information on Nagarythe.
We Don't. Social. The Zhuf!
Nicholas
No longer teaching battlethings on a battleship
- Location
- Ashore again
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Somewhere during a reread I noticed that, even though we had the Grudge against Ranald and the note during the Waaagh, Thorgrim himself has been offscreen since we first went with Belegar to Karaz-A-Karak after the Expedition succeeded. I wondered to myself what he was thinking during some of our "ships passing in the night" moments, and that lent itself to a Thorgrim negaquest.
@Boney Meet your Dwarfquest counterpart, Beardy!
Enjoy!
We Don't. Social. The Zhuf!
A Grudge To Bear Quest - Turn 185: 7012
Thus concludes the work the High King has performed these past months, but not every waking moment was filled with work. With whom did he spend his valuable free time not atop the Throne of Power?
[+] Social interaction initiated by someone else (locked in)
The Karaz Ankor
[ ] Mathilde Weber
That Umgi Zhufokri is apparently coming by to check up on the growing campaign for Mount Silverspear. You never did get to speak to her after everything that happened with Karak Vlag; maybe now might be a good time?
=====
-Beardling player: Oh, hey, it's Belegar's old Loremaster! Maybe we can finally talk to her?
-(Three pages of inarticulate screaming and panicking)
-Beardling player: Okay, yeesh, wow, it was just a suggestion!
-Longbeard player: Sorry, it's just that you've kinda mistakenly stumbled into one of the thread's little unofficial "rules": we don't social the Zhuf.
-Beardling player: We don't? Why not?
-Hammerer player: Bad luck.
-Beardling player: …You're joking, right?
-Slayer player: We are not.
-Beardling player: But… how?
-Longbeard player: It's a bit of a story, and unfortunately it's not one that's made it into the Threadmarks so you'll only find it if you peruse the actual thread, which… (flail at the sheer amount of pages this thread has taken up)
-Loremaster player: So, here's the thing: we've tried to social Loremaster Weber before. We've tried multiple times, in fact. But you know how Beardy rolls a dice every time we have to interact with non-Dwarves, to see how well our mood does around them?
When we've tried to interact with her, we fail. Every. Single. Time.
We've nearly wound up in a civil war with Belegar. We've left her at the mercy of a Waaagh. And even when we applied omake bonuses to socialing her after the whole Vlag thing, we crit-failed and wound up declaring a minor Grudge against her God for "stealing a Dwarven soul and reincarnating it as an Umgi". According to Beardy it's a good thing we applied our bonuses that time, too, because without them the crit-fail would have resulted in us kidnapping her and dragging her back to Karaz-A-Karak for the Ancestor Cults to test her for her Dwarven soul.
-Beardling player: …Great Grungni's Beard.
-Loremaster player: So since then we've had an unofficial role: We don't Social the Zhufokri, no matter how tempting it may be.
-Beardling player: With that background, I can fully see why everyone panicked!
=====
A Grudge To Bear Quest - Social Turn 185: 7012
You are Thorgrim Grudgebearer. High King of the Karaz Ankor. Declarer of the Age of Reckoning, wearer of the Dragon Crown, keeper of the Dammaz Kron.
And today, you are hiding in your throne room like a beardling.
The reason why meanders through the courtyard outside. An Umgi with ornate grey robes and a Witch Hunter's hat, with her own set of titles. Dämerlichtreiter in the Umgi language, Azrildrekked in yours. The woman who turned your world, and the world of the Karaz Ankor, upside-down.
You've only ever seen her once. And even then you didn't interact with her, distracted as you were with Ironhammer's youthful impishness. Though to be fair, you couldn't exactly have known at the time that this woman and her efforts would save you and your race from gradual extinction.
And your interactions with her…haven't been the best. You did kinda abandon her to die, after all, even though that was still back when you were without hope. You also kinda accused her God of stealing a Dwarven soul, too, and with your blood entered as much into the Dammaz Kron. And you were actually trying to be nice to her, then!
The Ancestor Cults really didn't take your comment, "she must have the soul of a Dawi!", in the spirit you had intended. And by the time you realized your mistake, it was far too late. The High King, after all, cannot disavow his own words like some hot-tempered youth.
Ancestors below, sometimes you really do wish you'd kept your mouth shut.
And now you have a chance, again, to try and just… talk to her.
The question is, do you?
Do you?: 100 Critical Success, 75-99 Dramatic Success, 51-74 Success, 26-50 Failure, 2-25 Dramatic Failure, 1 Critical Failure.
Rolling: 25.
You do not.
A Thane bustles over to see to the Zhufokrul, and to your great relief he reports to you afterward that it was no more than curiosity that brought her here. For being an Umgi, she's surprisingly adept at the characteristics of a Loremaster, even after technically leaving the position. Maybe she'll make a report of some kind to Ironhammer, maybe she won't. Either way, her Gyrocopter departs with her in it, and yet another opportunity passes you by.
You, the High King of the Karaz Ankor, who has hidden in your throne room at the fear of meeting the Zhufokrul whose actions have saved the Dawi.
You furrow your brow and clench your first, your famous stubbornness coming to the fore. Next time, you swear, you will go out of your way to meet this strange creature. You will do your best to speak with her. You will not disgrace yourself, your Clan, your Ancestors, or your very Race.
It's only when the eyes in the statue of Valaya nearby almost seem to twinkle, that you realize you have spoken those words aloud.
Well, krut.
At your next opportunity, the option to social the Zhufokri will be automatically selected for you. As you have sworn an Oath to speak with her, you cannot get out of it except by shaving your head as an Oathbreaker. Needless to say, no matter how glorious your death may be, you doubt Grimnir will look kindly on a Dwarven King going Slayer because they had to speak with an Umgi.
=====
-Beardy: As an aside, I would like to note that several of the Ancestor Gods (and, of course, the Umgi God Ranald) are amused and/or exasperated with you to varying degrees.
-(Twenty pages of inarticulate screaming and panicking)
@Boney Meet your Dwarfquest counterpart, Beardy!
Enjoy!
We Don't. Social. The Zhuf!
A Grudge To Bear Quest - Turn 185: 7012
Thus concludes the work the High King has performed these past months, but not every waking moment was filled with work. With whom did he spend his valuable free time not atop the Throne of Power?
[+] Social interaction initiated by someone else (locked in)
The Karaz Ankor
[ ] Mathilde Weber
That Umgi Zhufokri is apparently coming by to check up on the growing campaign for Mount Silverspear. You never did get to speak to her after everything that happened with Karak Vlag; maybe now might be a good time?
=====
-Beardling player: Oh, hey, it's Belegar's old Loremaster! Maybe we can finally talk to her?
-(Three pages of inarticulate screaming and panicking)
-Beardling player: Okay, yeesh, wow, it was just a suggestion!
-Longbeard player: Sorry, it's just that you've kinda mistakenly stumbled into one of the thread's little unofficial "rules": we don't social the Zhuf.
-Beardling player: We don't? Why not?
-Hammerer player: Bad luck.
-Beardling player: …You're joking, right?
-Slayer player: We are not.
-Beardling player: But… how?
-Longbeard player: It's a bit of a story, and unfortunately it's not one that's made it into the Threadmarks so you'll only find it if you peruse the actual thread, which… (flail at the sheer amount of pages this thread has taken up)
-Loremaster player: So, here's the thing: we've tried to social Loremaster Weber before. We've tried multiple times, in fact. But you know how Beardy rolls a dice every time we have to interact with non-Dwarves, to see how well our mood does around them?
When we've tried to interact with her, we fail. Every. Single. Time.
We've nearly wound up in a civil war with Belegar. We've left her at the mercy of a Waaagh. And even when we applied omake bonuses to socialing her after the whole Vlag thing, we crit-failed and wound up declaring a minor Grudge against her God for "stealing a Dwarven soul and reincarnating it as an Umgi". According to Beardy it's a good thing we applied our bonuses that time, too, because without them the crit-fail would have resulted in us kidnapping her and dragging her back to Karaz-A-Karak for the Ancestor Cults to test her for her Dwarven soul.
-Beardling player: …Great Grungni's Beard.
-Loremaster player: So since then we've had an unofficial role: We don't Social the Zhufokri, no matter how tempting it may be.
-Beardling player: With that background, I can fully see why everyone panicked!
=====
A Grudge To Bear Quest - Social Turn 185: 7012
You are Thorgrim Grudgebearer. High King of the Karaz Ankor. Declarer of the Age of Reckoning, wearer of the Dragon Crown, keeper of the Dammaz Kron.
And today, you are hiding in your throne room like a beardling.
The reason why meanders through the courtyard outside. An Umgi with ornate grey robes and a Witch Hunter's hat, with her own set of titles. Dämerlichtreiter in the Umgi language, Azrildrekked in yours. The woman who turned your world, and the world of the Karaz Ankor, upside-down.
You've only ever seen her once. And even then you didn't interact with her, distracted as you were with Ironhammer's youthful impishness. Though to be fair, you couldn't exactly have known at the time that this woman and her efforts would save you and your race from gradual extinction.
And your interactions with her…haven't been the best. You did kinda abandon her to die, after all, even though that was still back when you were without hope. You also kinda accused her God of stealing a Dwarven soul, too, and with your blood entered as much into the Dammaz Kron. And you were actually trying to be nice to her, then!
The Ancestor Cults really didn't take your comment, "she must have the soul of a Dawi!", in the spirit you had intended. And by the time you realized your mistake, it was far too late. The High King, after all, cannot disavow his own words like some hot-tempered youth.
Ancestors below, sometimes you really do wish you'd kept your mouth shut.
And now you have a chance, again, to try and just… talk to her.
The question is, do you?
Do you?: 100 Critical Success, 75-99 Dramatic Success, 51-74 Success, 26-50 Failure, 2-25 Dramatic Failure, 1 Critical Failure.
Rolling: 25.
You do not.
A Thane bustles over to see to the Zhufokrul, and to your great relief he reports to you afterward that it was no more than curiosity that brought her here. For being an Umgi, she's surprisingly adept at the characteristics of a Loremaster, even after technically leaving the position. Maybe she'll make a report of some kind to Ironhammer, maybe she won't. Either way, her Gyrocopter departs with her in it, and yet another opportunity passes you by.
You, the High King of the Karaz Ankor, who has hidden in your throne room at the fear of meeting the Zhufokrul whose actions have saved the Dawi.
You furrow your brow and clench your first, your famous stubbornness coming to the fore. Next time, you swear, you will go out of your way to meet this strange creature. You will do your best to speak with her. You will not disgrace yourself, your Clan, your Ancestors, or your very Race.
It's only when the eyes in the statue of Valaya nearby almost seem to twinkle, that you realize you have spoken those words aloud.
Well, krut.
At your next opportunity, the option to social the Zhufokri will be automatically selected for you. As you have sworn an Oath to speak with her, you cannot get out of it except by shaving your head as an Oathbreaker. Needless to say, no matter how glorious your death may be, you doubt Grimnir will look kindly on a Dwarven King going Slayer because they had to speak with an Umgi.
=====
-Beardy: As an aside, I would like to note that several of the Ancestor Gods (and, of course, the Umgi God Ranald) are amused and/or exasperated with you to varying degrees.
-(Twenty pages of inarticulate screaming and panicking)
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
If Lileath is a Daughter of Ranald (which honestly I doubt, because it doesn't really make much sense IMO), one could probably use the Father on the Shadow Warriors. I doubt the thread would go for it over Protector, but it's a possibility.
Where is that from?
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
It'd be even worse than if we tried getting info from the other houses on their homelands, in my opinion.
These would most likely be Nagarythe colonists from before the Sundering. They haven't lived with millennia of being treated as Druchii-lite.
- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Elves don't quite worship in the same way as humans do. They don't do the mono-focus, the intensity instead sorta worshiping all God's even if they do stray towards one main one. The Father might not work quite the same on elven worshipers like it would on human because of the difference racial approch to the gods. Assuming they are of course followers of Ranald's children.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Boney commented once that there wouldn't be Beastmen as separate groups among populations that don't see even the most mutated person as not-a-person.
Basically, if somebody grows a third arm in the Empire, they either escape or they're killed. If someone grows a third arm in Norsca, they're a Norscan with a third arm.
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- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
I kinda thought the second secret of Dhar only applied to share cast using the first secret?
So, if there's no one around to reject them, it really kicks the foundation out from that whole culture, right? No civilization around to hold a grudge against, no enemies of chaos to fight or even care about, no other chaos things around to be inferior to, and no generational trauma because it's always been this way.
Plus, the only beastmen we know of that didn't come from domesticated animals are the monkeys in Cathay and the tigers in Ind, neither of which are chaos worshipers.
So there's some huge questions around the southern beastmen.
So, if there's no one around to reject them, it really kicks the foundation out from that whole culture, right? No civilization around to hold a grudge against, no enemies of chaos to fight or even care about, no other chaos things around to be inferior to, and no generational trauma because it's always been this way.
Plus, the only beastmen we know of that didn't come from domesticated animals are the monkeys in Cathay and the tigers in Ind, neither of which are chaos worshipers.
So there's some huge questions around the southern beastmen.
- Location
- Washington
Notable that it is explicitly canonical that even full on chaos spawn, the people who get so mutated that they lose all sanity and any appearance of humanity, are still regarded as "part of the tribe" by norscans, are set up in lairs right by the tribe, and relatives will come by with food and mead for them on the reg.
So yeah, "Norscan with a third arm" is just "norscan with a third arm."
So yeah, "Norscan with a third arm" is just "norscan with a third arm."
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
There's no mention of it. It'd be a dramatically less useful thing if so, given that very few individuals should know the 1st Secret.
As far as described, every Dhar construct has the inherent potential to collapse if prodded.
Blackout
Fed By Comments
- Location
- Who knows?
My understanding is that it depends on the tribe, Norscans aren't a monolith.
Different tribes have different standards for what they allow to be part of society, some allow everything up to full-on Chaos Spawn while others are described as exiling the more extreme mutants into the wilderness or even outright killing them.
Nope, grand theogonist used it to blow up a zombie horde
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
It's at least possible that Mannfred created those zombies with the 1st Secret, so that might not be a counter-argument.
The Second Secret makes Dhar "more unstable". The First Secret is how to make it stable, and the Second is how to make it unstable. The Second Secret works on both regular Dhar and strengthened Dhar.
The problem is that in order to describe how it can be unravelled, you must first describe how it can be ravelled in the first place, which is an inherently dangerous secret.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Nope:
The two secrets of Dhar are insights about how it interacts with itself, which are nontrivial because what "everyone knows" is that it's unstable and dangerous and so they don't use much when they use it at all. One secret is "hey, if you make Dhar-based magic interact with itself in this specific way, it becomes capable of handling a lot more power in a stable fashion." The other secret is "hey, if you make Dhar-based magic interact with itself in this specific way, it completely flies the fuck apart into loose Dhar." Unfortunately, the second secret relies on knowing the first, so if you present the second, even absent context, anyone who knows what they're doing can rederive the first and then you have a bunch of potential existential threats on your hand, so it's knowledge you want to keep locked down whether your intentions are prosocial or you just don't want any competition for the title of Dark Lord.
My belief, completely absent direct evidence from Boney and based purely on vibes, is that the top echelons of Druchii leadership know the Secrets but keep a tight grip on them and anyone below that top echelon who starts visibly figuring them out either gets recruited or killed. No guess about the degree to which the Asur, Asrai, or Eonir magical elite have knowledge of them.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
It would make sense if the first secret were 'true dhar' and the stuff nagash lifted from druchii sorcery way back, filtered through Vlad.
The implication of the second secret applying to all Dhar constructs though is that it won't apply to lose Dhar, and so it can't be used to prevent mutation/madness from exposure to the ground-state stuff, or to cleanse areas.
The implication of the second secret applying to all Dhar constructs though is that it won't apply to lose Dhar, and so it can't be used to prevent mutation/madness from exposure to the ground-state stuff, or to cleanse areas.
You mean the first part? I have to admit, I'm not quite sure where I picked it up. I think Boney has said things like that, and it's in the books, but I can't give you quotes.
This is why I want to get Druchii info about how they cast True Dhar. That way we can gauge how they cast and determine if sharing the Second Secret with the Asur could be in our interests.
Although I am going to say I doubt that with Druchii having a Dhar casting magical tradition thousands of years old they haven't figured a way around the Second Secret.
In fact it may even be common knowledge for Sorceress, in the same way Forest Spirits are a mundane topic in Laurelorn.
I mean, that's not really an implication, it's just how it is, we know it for certain.
Yeah, it just blows it apart. Which is why using the second secret only helps if the dhar is moving to kill you write now. Way back when there were a bunch of questions about using it, but in most cases it would just contaminate things worse than before. You blow apart an undead army because it's killing you, but you're making your contamination worse.
- Location
- Washington
TBH if they've got a way around the second secret that's like, exactly the sort of thing they wouldn't tell us in a classic "taught you with a deliberate weakness to exploit" style. Even if they aren't going into it planning on doing that for whatever they teach us, that's just too good of an opportunity.
infinityDivided
Prince Of Doom
- Location
- USA
That's my logic, yes.
To clarify, I don't think that beastmen must be the lowest rung. Norscan beastmen are probably just Norscans. Might even be slightly elevated, because mutation=good. The southlands beastmen don't hate civilization because they've got no particular reason to, and the only civilizations around are probably their own. If there's other chaos gribblies/dudes around, the beastmen will compareabout as well as humans, and it would happen on the principle of last thing standing. And while they'll certainly fight and sometimes hate the other civilizations, that describes every civilization ever.
This whole anti-civilization thing is, I believe, a phenomenon of the Old World (though likely to be reproduced under similar circumstances). And I imagine it happens like so:
First you have a situation where beastmen may not be liked or even tolerated (depending on where the humans are from), but there's no beastmen anti-civilization. There's simply the rejects. Those who were born into it in human tribes and survived, those who mutated later on, and those grew up like that. They are parallel tribal structures. But, these are not powerful tribes. They are, after all just a small fraction, and because they're rejects, they get pushed onto the worst lands, so they simply can't grow a population to pose a threat. They probably worship chaos, but they probably also worship other gods, and their worship of chaos is like Norscan or Hung worship. There's occasions where they band together, and historians would see it as if those were modern warherds. But honestly, it's pretty much just tribal warfare, with one group of tribes being hairier. It happens because a particularly charismatic leader, or because the year was lean, or because population just grows beyond sustainability. But since the humans are more powerful and dislike them, they get inevitably get pushed back again (maybe even wiped out, but you can't eliminate mutation, and not all land is settled, so the tribes are eventually reestablished from scratch). In this phase there probably are friendly contacts occasionally, and it's possible that a united fight under a (pair of) Hero King(s) might end with them turning into a accepted group with their own territory that's (mostly) respected. Maybe that happened in Ind (it would be easier the less bad blood there is initially). In that case, things follow a different path, and the beastmen might just turn from chaos completly.
Second phase is when tribes settle down for agriculture. This is a massive game changer. It means more food, and better weapons, and controlling land tightly. The beastmen now face a massive power imbalance. Because they're already on worse land, they can't really imitate such a shift. They get pushed further and further back, as growing populations require more land, and improving technology (and time) make more and more land arable (it's a shitton of work to turn a forest into a field, even if it's not fighting back). I would guess all pre-existing tribes get wiped over time, frequently enough that they can't hold onto their prior culture, including gods. That they're all domesticated animals is telling. This is where the "we're rejects" really starts, because way more of their population are actual rejects (a percentage of the human population becomes beastmen. As the human population grows compared to the beastmen, the proportional contribution grows). Chaos might also be an issue here, because I don't think it's very suitable for agriculture or complex, organized states, so those that have good enough land and try to shift can't compete in the long term. The nature of chaos worship also changes. It becomes the only worship, because the prior beastmen gods are forgotten (which may be human gods with a mustache), and many rejects would naturally turn to chaos, not keep their old gods. This is a bad thing for them, because chaos doesn't care for what it has, so they actually end up with less favor (note: This is my headcanon, I can't give you proof from canon. Though simply the lack of a reliable way to retain information would drive also in this direction. Secret knowledge does help gain favor). Note, this worship is still often of the chaos gods as individuals (though there's also a hefty dose of chaos undivided, simply because most don't know about the individual chaos gods), especially in older/more established tribes.
Now, third phase: Until now, beastmen have fully rejected human non-chaos civilization, and have fully embraced chaos. But "mainstream" chaos doesn't reject them yet. That comes with Chaos Lords originally from the non-chaos civilizations. Just because they turned to chaos, doesn't mean they'd lose their previous biases. Beastmen are uncivilized beasts. They can be dangerous, but they're stupid and will ultimately cower before true people. You know, general racist bullshit. The fact that they generally are weaker because they have less food, shit weapons, bad training and less arcane secrets are taken as the effect, not the cause. Again, typical colonialist bullshit (and the chaos lord going north as a dark mirror of the white savior trope is a fascinating thought). This is self reinforcing, because they end up treated badly (bad/lacking supplies ain't good for performance), used badly (chaff essentially, rather than the powerful skrimishers they could be right from the start, or powerful linebreakers given equipment and training) and thus they perform badly. Which is then taken as confirmation, and used to justify even worse treatment. Typical bad management bullshit. And the attitude spreads, because there's evidence right there to see. Also, it's convenient to have a designated meatshield group, because the hardcore chaos leaders are pretty into killing their own guys.
Fourth: The situation just festers. They're rejected by humans, they're lower cast to chaos but can't do anything about it because chaos is their only refuge, so they can only embrace it harder. Which of course only makes them be abused harder. You know, typical abuse bullshit. Or wageslave bullshit. And if you tell someone they're bad for being uncivilized, and dirty, and brutal and all that? Well, at some point they'll accept that, internalize it, and eventually embrace it. So beastmen start smearing themselves with shit, because they're dirty. And they're stupid, so they reject learning. And they start proudly and honestly proclaiming their hatred for all civilization, even though they have one of their own. But philosophy isn't generally the strong suit of an uneducated, poor and mistreated people. Especially if you've instilled a distrust and dislike of intellectualism. I don't know what to call that flavor of bullshit, but it's something you see IRL too. And we've arrived at the state of the modern Old World Beastmen. And since everyone, from humans to chaos to other beastmen will tell them this is how beastmen are (seperate from Norscans who are particularly hairy), even newly formed tribes have basically no chance of escape. They're caught in the cycle of generational trauma, bound by chains of accumulated sins across millennia, and in the nature of the worst types of injustice, they don't even know it could be any other way.
Sidenote: Just to be clear, Beastmen are victims of a world that dislikes them in particular. They are also the perpetrators, and they have contributed plenty of sins themselves. That's what makes cycles of abuse so horrendous. I'd be willing to bet that most of the violence and evils committed by beastmen are committed against other beastmen.
In conclusion, something like the Old World Beastmen was, if not inevitable then likely, the moment agriculture became established and the beastmen didn't have anywhere else to go.