Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Nobody is arguing that the industrial revolution didn't suck for a quite a lot of people. But consider this? Why did people go into the cities if those sucked so bad? Because life in the country side could suck pretty bad too. It doesn't matter if you have people willing to give you some help if they've got something to spare, if nobody has anything to spare. For example, because some lord need more cash and instituted a new tax. The economic history of peasants in england before around 1346 could be described as more and more of them getting pushed into inheritable debt-slavery/serfdom. The next ten years would massively improve the economic position of the lower classes, but it did that by way mass death, so people actually had to pay a good wage.

Incidentally, that shift in power away from the landed classes is one of the factors that enabled, if not the industrial revolution itself, then its predecessor the industrious revolution.

The honest answer is, we don't know. There's only ever been one, and so we can't really compare different cases to see what really mattered (unlike with agriculture, cities or writing, which were independently invented in a bunch of places so we can at least make some comparisons). We can point at a bunch of factors, but it's super hard to weigh them, especially because they all interact, and a set together might be critical but useless if even one part is missing.

But I'll point at a few things for your consideration. Number one is that the people there don't know that a concept like the industrial revolution exists, much less what it means. They might be near a tipping point where things get exciting really fast, if they just put in a little more money on incremental improvements and stuff. But if they don't know that, in most cases a small improvement wouldn't be worth that much.

There's a difference between hierarchy and a power structure. A power structure is solidified. Grug is boss because he's strong and charismatic, and remains that way only so long as nobody is more so (with some advantage for the incumbent). It's pretty meritocratic that way. And if he's just strong, people can easily just go to the next group. You're probably related to them too.

Agriculture lets you accumulate power over years, hand it to your heirs, and use that power to get more power. You don't need to be strong or charismatic anymore to get a bunch of people to fight for you (though of course it helps). You just need to give them food. And then those people you pay can take the food of other people, so you're making a profit and everyone does what you say. And unlike previously, the people you take the food from can't just leave, because then they'd starve. They have to stay and make more food for you to take (and also eat).

Incidentally, the in-between case of pastoralism has much more fluid power structures, but it still has them because animals do still accumulate, and that can be passed on. But just being able to leave and go somewhere else does put a limit on how tyrannical you can be to them (which applies both internally and for the longest time to external powers too).
Which goes to show why freedom of movement is one of the most important rights to guard against tyranny. Because it can only get so bad if you can just leave (note that not being able to leave can both be because your not allowed or because you can't afford it).


People left to cities due to a lack of opportunity. The industrial revolution created an environment where emerging states were incentivized to free up labor by fundamentally reorganizing the country side. The Cotton Empire by Sven Beckertt goes into detail about it the process and about how desperately bad early factory labor was and why hybrid work was used as part of a strategy to subsidize a failing farm that was increasingly being dislocated by state policy. Essentially the argument is that industrial capitalism was only possible by creating a source of labor one that did not exist prior to state intervention.

Indeed the need to keep people in factories was so great that sometimes leaving employment or just leaving the factory at all was a criminal offense. It wasn't until organized labor was able to put pressure on the very mechanisms of government through a combination of implied or actual violence and electoral participation that conditions improved.
 
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King Belegar Roles First Elven Karak-Loremaster In Millennia, Asked To Leave Karaz Ankor
Hey now, having an Elf as Loremaster is very traditional. The ancestors did it that way.

...the Ancestors did it that way…

Tinfoil hat time!
Thought process:
1) The Golden Age of the Karaz Ankor coincided with their alliance with Ulthuan.
2) The alliance with Ulthuan was forged by Snorri Whitebeard. The first high king and the direct child of the ancestor gods, assuming he doesn't count as one himself.
3) The catastrophic collapse that heralded the Time of Woes happened after the War of Vengeance was ended. After the grudge levelled Phoenix King Caledor II was settled but the Karaz Ankor did not normalise relations with Ulthuan or the new independent Elf nations.
4) The Silver Age began and was directly caused by the alliance between the Karaz Ankor and the human followers of Sigmar.
5) Karak Vlag and Karag Dum were lost during a time when the holds of the Karaz Ankor were becoming increasingly isolated, both from each other and from their allies.
6) Dawi universally believe that to go against the example of the ancestors is to court disaster.
7) The example of the ancestors, who were indeed successful, is that cooperation with others is the key to prosperity.

Conclusion: Any Dawi who argues against the growing contact with Laurelorn, or for xenophobia and isolation in general, is going against the ancestors!
 
Industrial revolution after very short time (relative periods between them) creating much more new job than unemployment. That's not help for anybody who fell in gap between this moments, but it actually that happens.

Yeah, but the greatest difference was the dismantling of agrarian communities and support networks with people moving towards the cities to work in the factories.

The interesting thing is that if you look at the actual process of moving people off farms and into factories, it was way more coercive than you would otherwise guess.

A lot of our stereotypes about 'lazy peasants' come from this era, when the people would rather work 30 hours a week mostly outside rather than 75 hours a week in a loud dingy room. So the landlords, who also owned the factories, started knocking apart the rural safety nets to force people into factory work.

The quotes you can find from nobles in the generation just before Adam Smith are hair-raising.
 
People left to cities due to a lack of opportunity. The industrial revolution created an environment where emerging states were incentivized to free up labor by fundamental reorganizing the country side. The Cotton Empire by Sven Beckertt goes into detail about it the process and about how desperately bad early factory labor was and why hybrid work was used as part of a strategy to subsidize a failing farm that was increasingly being dislocated by state policy. Essentially the argument is that industrial capitalism was only possible by creating a source of labor one that did not exist prior to state intervention.
"A lack of opportunity" to eat is pretty damn bad. And the reorganization of rural labor had already been going on before the industrial revolution. Enclosure had been an ongoing process that people were very unhappy (or happy for those making money of it) with. That wasn't something started by the industrial revolution, if anything it was part of what enabled it.
 
Ancient Rome had factories operating on river power.
Nothing new here.
But yes, Warhammer Fantasy can, when it cares to, make lot of sense.

Do you know where one can find books and sources about stuff like this? I've always found the ideas on how ancient civilizations, might have approached industrialization and similar stuff.
 
"A lack of opportunity" to eat is pretty damn bad. And the reorganization of rural labor had already been going on before the industrial revolution. Enclosure had been an ongoing process that people were very unhappy (or happy for those making money of it) with. That wasn't something started by the industrial revolution, if anything it was part of what enabled it.

Indeed, and that lack of opportunity to eat was in fact government policy. That is what fundamentally reshaping the countryside through direct government intervention for the explicitly purpose of creating a larger labor pool is going to cause. This was not just a continuation of a trend stepped into blindly but a deliberate and oft reaffirmed inflection point emerging early modern states engaged in.

The Industrial Revolution and its consequences may have created the world of plenty we live in today, but the road was not smooth nor nice, and was not the result of the choices of the poor and disposed who would much rather have stayed on even marginal land if it was available which I think you will agree with. But again: Deliberate state intervention engineered that outcome.
 
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Do you know where one can find books and sources about stuff like this? I've always found the ideas on how ancient civilizations, might have approached industrialization and similar stuff.
I wish i had a good source to offer.
Googling "ancient roman factories" gets you plenty of sources, some of which actually useful, but not really anything easily diggestible.
 
Hey now, having an Elf as Loremaster is very traditional. The ancestors did it that way.

...the Ancestors did it that way…

Tinfoil hat time!
Thought process:
1) The Golden Age of the Karaz Ankor coincided with their alliance with Ulthuan.
2) The alliance with Ulthuan was forged by Snorri Whitebeard. The first high king and the direct child of the ancestor gods, assuming he doesn't count as one himself.
3) The catastrophic collapse that heralded the Time of Woes happened after the War of Vengeance was ended. After the grudge levelled Phoenix King Caledor II was settled but the Karaz Ankor did not normalise relations with Ulthuan or the new independent Elf nations.
4) The Silver Age began and was directly caused by the alliance between the Karaz Ankor and the human followers of Sigmar.
5) Karak Vlag and Karag Dum were lost during a time when the holds of the Karaz Ankor were becoming increasingly isolated, both from each other and from their allies.
6) Dawi universally believe that to go against the example of the ancestors is to court disaster.
7) The example of the ancestors, who were indeed successful, is that cooperation with others is the key to prosperity.

Conclusion: Any Dawi who argues against the growing contact with Laurelorn, or for xenophobia and isolation in general, is going against the ancestors!
"Friendship is Runecraft." - Degdhark( Daydark) Bryn( Sparkle)

(Apologies for my lackluster attempt at Khazalid.)
 
It's hard to fathom in the modern age where consumer goods are completely disposable, but prior to industrialization, the raw man-hours that went into spinning the thread to weave the cloth to sew the shirt meant that a single shirt cost the equivalent of thousands of dollars, which is why most people only owned one or two outfits and being able to repair those clothes was a mandatory vital skill.
In WFRP 4e, a set of clothing costs 6 shillings, which is equivalent to 24 work days for the average Villager.
 
Its actually more than a month as most months only have 20-22 work days unless you are one of those unfortunate suckers that work more than five days a week.... thought, i guess months actually have 40 days in warhammer? Head hurty.
Months have 32/33 days, not too far from ours. On the other hand weeks are 8 days long, so five work days a week is probably really over-optimistic.
 
Wasn't refuting, was adding info. 24 work days matches up with Natch's assessment of being equivalent to thousands of dollars.
24 days is probably too low for what it would take historically. Price comparisions are always tricky, doubly so for something most people would make themselves. But just spinning the yarn might take that long, even with the much more effective spinning wheel. The industrial revolution began with the cloth industry, because that was the single most time consuming thing. Food production was obviously also a big thing, especially if you take preparation and conservation into account, but it was a seasonal thing.
 
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Do you know where one can find books and sources about stuff like this? I've always found the ideas on how ancient civilizations, might have approached industrialization and similar stuff.

Technology and Society In the Ancient Greek and Roman Worlds by T.E. Rihil

War and Society in Early Rome: From Warlords to Generals by J. Armstrong

Ancient Rome: Infographics by N. Guillerat, J. Scheid, and M. Melocco

Pre-Industrial Societies: Anatomy of the Pre-Modern World by P. Crone

The Grain Market in the Roman Empire: A Social, Political and Economic Study by Paul Erdkamp

Metropolis and Hinterland: The City of Rome and the Italian Economy, 200 BC–AD 200 by Neville Morley

Roman Imperial Armour: The production of early imperial military armour by David Sim and J. Kaminski

Iron for the Eagles: The Iron Industry of Roman Britain by David Sim and Isabel Ridge

Check out Bert Devereux's blog, a lot of the books came from there

A Race for the Iron Throne by Steven Atewell's blog on Tumblr, search book recommendations

I'd also recommend Karl Polyani's Great Transformation but that might be a bit too overarching in its reach.

Edit:
Can't forget China.

Good source cause I can't find a cheaper version of the books so unless you wanna drop $60 for a monograph
 
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Found something neat in the Dwarf Player's Guide. Page 59:
Disgraced Dwarfs journey to the Temple of Grimnir at the nearest Dwarf hold where they undergo the Slayer Ritual (Drengidumar). [...] The would-be Slayer is then inducted into the cult of Grimnir the Slayer. No oath is taken as the oath of a disgraced Dwarf has no value.
Also page 59:
Slayer Characters cannot ever choose to wear or carry protective wargear. [...] More importantly, it would violate their Slayer Oath to Grimnir, mortally dishonouring themselves a second time over, with a shame not even the Slayer Oath can redeem.
 
Oh, cool! Curious that the technological base exists, the logistics exist, but it's not fully developed. Is this more due to this being a transitional period while machinery becomes more precise, or due to another factor like a lack of demand for a larger volume of products in any given area?

It was about seven centuries between the Venetian Arsenal outputting one boat per day and the first true industrialized 'factories' in the modern sense. It seems like you need a set of different things to converge before the huge amount of resources will be sunk into the very first prototype, precision and demand being some of them, but another major one is being damn sure that none of the very expensive machinery you're going to commission and interlink together and put in the hands of untrained peasants is going to hiccup and shred itself and everything else. Considering the setting it's probably going to be the next major war that does it. It's no coincidence that the process started in Britain during the Napoleonic Wars with a factory for ship components, and after the war ended the guy that made it (and had been working on one for army boots) ended up in debtors prison. There seems to be a significant gap between it being viable in times of war versus times of peace.

Which goes to show why freedom of movement is one of the most important rights to guard against tyranny. Because it can only get so bad if you can just leave (note that not being able to leave can both be because your not allowed or because you can't afford it).

I unironically believe that the skeleton meme of 'if it sucks ... hit da bricks!!' contains much unheeded wisdom.


Found something neat in the Dwarf Player's Guide. Page 59:

Also page 59:

It would have been so very easy to tweak that into something like 'although often referred to as 'the Slayer Oath' and treated as one by those who undergo it, the Slayer Ritual is not recognized or enforced as an oath by authorities, because the oath of a disgraced Dwarf has no value'. That's why you should have proofreaders and editors, I suppose.
 
Why are slayer tattoos swirly? My understanding is that Karaz Ankor art tends towards the angular. Instead, their tattoos look like the orcs' and Albionese's. Is there deep lore involved, or just GW drawing from the same historical well for all of them?
 
Found something neat in the Dwarf Player's Guide. Page 59:

Also page 59:

The first quote feels stupid even ignoring the contradiction.

Assuming the Dawi in question was not forced to become a Slayer (from my understanding, the most common case), then the very fact they joined the Slayer cult voluntarily means that their oath had value, because in breaking it the Dwarf broke himself. The Dwarf was not a liar who broke the oath because he was untrustworthy.

Slayers are actually not mistreated or social pariahs by other Dwarfs, they mistreat themselves and make themselves pariahs, sure, most Dawi would punish an oathbreaker Dawi who is not a Slayer were they to know of their wrongdoings and unwillingness to go Slayer over them, so there is an implicit pressure, but as for actual Slayers, the average Dawi just wans them achieve their goal, they do not hate them or spit where they walk because their word has no meaning, they see them as sad broken people because when their word broke, it had so much meaning they broke with it.
 
Slayers are actually not mistreated or social pariahs by other Dwarfs
Nah, they are absolutely pariahs. Dwarf Players' Guide page 59:
Dwarf attitudes towards Slayers are mixed. On one hand, the words and lives of these disgraced, contemptible outcasts are worthless. On the other, the Slayers' terrifying ferocity and suicidal bravery command the respect of the warrior-respecting Dwarfs. In addition, the presence of Slayers reminds Dwarfs of how far they can fall if they stray from the values of their culture.
This isn't new lore, I've been seeing this attitude even in SV quests from 2014.
 
It's Chapter Five of Against the Grain by James C. Scott which explains that's why slavery as system comes to be, because early states were so bad that most people would just up leave and so they had to force people to stay through the threat of violence. I think Max Weber actually argues that in Sociology of the State or I might be remembering James Torpey's book The Invention of the Passport. I would recommend both books if anyone's curious on the topic of movement and states. I would not recommend Sociology of the State because I don't really remember it too well.
 
The quote says the attitude is mixed.
Worthless, yet worthy, honorless, yet holding an oath.
And that's before we get into the existence of the Slayer King.

Slayers are not social pariahs.
Not exactly people you invite to most social gatherings, but not pariahs either i think.
 
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