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The thing I'm interested in is how much of a push/pull factor will be placed on the elven artisans to move to the empire.

Like, will there be enough of a pull (money, personal standard of life etc) to move their families to an empire city over staying.

I don't think the first order of artisans will, they will get the best of both worlds, money from the empire and living in the elf city.

But those that don't get in on the action in time might be tempted.
Why would they move to the Empire? The artisans are by definition either in the City or in highly mobile workshops, and the City is about to expand for the first time in.... ever.

And noone but Marienburg or Elector Count could possibly afford the wages on retainer for a highly skilled Elven artisan. We sunk 3K into a lab made in half a year. Noone is going to pay that outside of prestige cases when they could just buy stuff.
 
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Why would they move to the Empire? The artisans are by definition either in the City or in highly mobile workshops, and the City is about to expand for the first time in.... ever.

And noone but Marienburg or Elector Count could possibly afford the wages on retainer for a highly skilled Elven artisan.
That's why I said 'the first order' won't,

I'm talking about those that come later and don't get any of that pie.

Those ones might get tempted by Marienburg and the EC's
 
There are buildings called 'factories' where standardized goods are mass produced on assembly lines, but machines aren't reliable or precise enough to be a part of the process so every step of it has to be by hand. That means it doesn't actually have many advantages over artisanry except for a few specific niches, like outfitting state troops.

Don't forget pin making! :p
 
Those ones might get tempted by Marienburg
I think Eonir is a bit allergic to Marienburg since it is something of a Ulthan pupet and Eonir won't want to get entagled with them. It might even end up a law or something like that once Queen get around to it since one of the first things they objected about trade is Ulthan goods undermining Eonir economy and Ulthan gold causing brain drain would be second biggest thread in their minds.

Some EC might get court artificers or something like that but I think that is far off.
 
Yeah, it's probably not a coincidence that one of the first really meaningful leaps of industrialization was in mechanized looms. Weaving cloth used to be painstakingly slow work, and it was mainly done by individuals for their own uses. Suddenly turning it into work a factory could do at hundreds of times the output of an equal number of individuals freed up an enormous pool of previously tapped labour.
 
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That's an interesting way of saying "a lot of people lost their jobs and were made unemployed".
Another way of saying it is "a lot of women were freed from needing to spend all their time spinning or weaving and could instead do other things" and "a set of clothing, which historically has cost somewhere between a month and multiple months of a laborer's wages, fell dramatically in price and raised quality of life for the poorer classes."

Things have lots of effects.
 
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That's an interesting way of saying "a lot of people lost their jobs and were made unemployed".
Industrial revolution after very short time (relative periods between them) creating much more new job than unemployment. That's not help for anybody who fell in gap between this moments, but it actually that happens.

Unemployment without free resources is fuel for social problems and free resources without unemployment is fuel for total conservatism in everything (meanwhile dawi), but having both of them are best option for any large projects that rulers souls want. (Most of this projects are wars, sadly)
 
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That's an interesting way of saying "a lot of people lost their jobs and were made unemployed".
The transition would suck if those in power don't spend a lot of resources smoothing it out, which means it will suck, yes.

But on the other hand, having to spend every hour of your life you're not doing something else spinning and weaving kind of sucks. The horizontal loom and the spinning wheel were kind of a mid point between that and the full mechanized version, but even then you had a shitton of effort there.
Any labor saving device is going to impact the lives of the people doing the labor, and the poor are also the ones who'll most feel the negative consequences by the nature of things.

And yet, having lots of clothing, and lots of food, and so one is pretty nice in the long run.

As a sidenote, the big problem with industrialization wasn't people becoming jobless. For one, demand for and usage of cloth got higher as the price came down, as is often the case (induced demand isn't always a bad thing). The issue was that only some people could actually take advantage of it, those who could afford the new and expensive devices, who then had a position of power over those who couldn't.
 
The problem with the Industrial Revolution was the inequality and poverty, the terrible safety standards at factories, etc, not 'the concept of mechanization'.
 
The problem with the Industrial Revolution was the inequality and poverty, the terrible safety standards at factories, etc, not 'the concept of mechanization'.
And it's not like the situation prior didn't suck either. The industrial revolution didn't invent unequal power structures*, it just invented new ones. Those were better in some ways, and worse in others. Worse in quite a lot of ways in the short term, though it was also a time when anyone could become obscenly rich. But having to hand off most of what you make because someone else owns the means of production describes the feudal economy just as well as the industrial.

*that was the agricultural revolution
 
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It's hard to fathom in the modern age where consumer goods are completely disposable, but prior to industrialization, the raw man-hours that went into spinning the thread to weave the cloth to sew the shirt meant that a single shirt cost the equivalent of thousands of dollars, which is why most people only owned one or two outfits and being able to repair those clothes was a mandatory vital skill.

And when the shirt on your back is equivalent in value to your car, finer fabrics like silk are like unto an Italian sports car imported from overseas, which is why the Silk Road exist(s/ed) and why giant spiders living under K8P are more valuable than most entire guilds.

Speaking of which, when's the last time there was any progress on those sheets?
 
And it's not like the situation prior didn't suck either. The industrial revolution didn't invent unequal power structures*, it just invented new ones. Those were better in some ways, and worse in others. Worse in quite a lot of ways in the short term, though it was also a time when anyone could become obscenly rich.

*that was the agricultural revolution

Yeah, but the greatest difference was the dismantling of agrarian communities and support networks with people moving towards the cities to work in the factories.

The workers in the factories did't have the same support networks that farmers and peasants used to have before. When they could count on the help of their extended family and village to obtain stuff like food, clothes or tools.

Or for other stuff like people babysitting their kids or looking after their house when they are away to work.

This destruction of the ancient Clan/Tribal Family made poverty much much worse of how it was in previous ages. Because before, communities would organize to survive togheter.

Now instead, each nuclear family was alone. And if you tried to organize, the factory owners would crack down on you. Because their wealth depended on exploiting the workers and keeping them weak and divided so they could't make demands.

Just think of the Pinkerton in the USA, they are the perfect exemples of the thugs and mercenaries sent by wealthy industrialists against the communities to stop them from organizing during the Industrial Revolution.

So basicaly, the Industrial Revolution sucked for poor people because you had the same problems as before (rich lords/industrialists owning all lands/factories and exploiting you) and lost the few things (tribal family/village community/clan) that once allowed you to survive more easly.
 
There was someone wearing fake silk during the opening of the canal, which according to Mathilde meant Francesco feels he's at least sort of close to cracking the silk because he wouldn't be trying to drum up interest in silk otherwise. That was in social turn 42, so 2 turns/1 year ago.

I thought it was less outright fake and more various not ready prototypes that needed some external silk stitching to keep it together?
 
The industrial revolution didn't invent unequal power structures*
I would bet you that chief grug exerted his influence(muscles) on hunter ug or something even before that. Its not like chimpanzee packs or gorilla families don't have hierarchies, and neither is particularily close to even stumbling on agriculture (i think at least).
 
There are buildings called 'factories' where standardized goods are mass produced on assembly lines, but machines aren't reliable or precise enough to be a part of the process so every step of it has to be by hand. That means it doesn't actually have many advantages over artisanry except for a few specific niches, like outfitting state troops.

Oh, cool! Curious that the technological base exists, the logistics exist, but it's not fully developed. Is this more due to this being a transitional period while machinery becomes more precise, or due to another factor like a lack of demand for a larger volume of products in any given area?

Also the process of industrialization can suck, yeah. Hopefully if it happens in the Empire it's rulers will remember that leaving people to misery causes Very Bad Things. Power of "despair and anger and stuff makes people fall to chaos", the union's strongest weapon.
 
This destruction of the ancient Clan/Tribal Family made poverty much much worse of how it was in previous ages. Because before, communities would organize to survive togheter.

Now instead, each nuclear family was alone. And if you tried to organize, the factory owners would crack down on you. Because their wealth depended on exploiting the workers and keeping them weak and divided so they could't make demands.

Just think of the Pinkerton in the USA, they are the perfect exemples of the thugs and mercenaries sent by wealthy industrialists against the communities to stop them from organizing during the Industrial Revolution.

So basicaly, the Industrial Revolution sucked for poor people because you had the same problems as before (rich lords/industrialists owning all lands/factories and exploiting you) and lost the few things (tribal family/village community/clan) that once allowed you to survive more easly.

'Much worse' is a bit of an overestimation, like sure the base for low level poverty was worse in places, people found it harder to organize and resist exploitation, until they came up with new forms, but there were fewer instances of out and out famines that killed whole communities, doesn't really matter how tight-knit you are if there is just not enough food. The agrarian revolution made it so that famines were for the most part a thing of the past. Exceptions like the Great Irish Famine were shocking in the age they took place because people were starting to get used to a world where famine did not happen and indeed it would never have happened at all had it not been for some truly criminal political decisions which were recognized as such by many at the time.
 
Oh, cool! Curious that the technological base exists, the logistics exist, but it's not fully developed. Is this more due to this being a transitional period while machinery becomes more precise, or due to another factor like a lack of demand for a larger volume of products in any given area?
Its probably because most of the brilliant people that have the wherewithal to think up the necessary components to make reliable machine and iterate over it are instead drawn into making the biggest fucking boom possible for the next gribbly that decides to make their way through their home and/or workshop, ruining the work already in process there.

Well that and the more megalomaniacal ones probably wander off in search of elector count to make some mega project instead of something more sensible.
 
That's an interesting way of saying "a lot of people lost their jobs and were made unemployed".
If less work needing to be done is a problem, the issue isn't the innovation that made the work easier - it's the economic system that causes people to starve when their productivity increases.

Freeing up labour should be unequivocally a good thing - it means that humanity can make more progress and people can either work less (i.e. the 40 hour work week as opposed to the 60 hour work week) or have more.

Getting angry at someone making life easier because exploiters can exploit it to make life harder is pointing your rage at exactly the wrong people.
 
Yeah, but the greatest difference was the dismantling of agrarian communities and support networks with people moving towards the cities to work in the factories.

The workers in the factories did't have the same support networks that farmers and peasants used to have before. When they could count on the help of their extended family and village to obtain stuff like food, clothes or tools.

Or for other stuff like people babysitting their kids or looking after their house when they are away to work.

This destruction of the ancient Clan/Tribal Family made poverty much much worse of how it was in previous ages. Because before, communities would organize to survive togheter.

Now instead, each nuclear family was alone. And if you tried to organize, the factory owners would crack down on you. Because their wealth depended on exploiting the workers and keeping them weak and divided so they could't make demands.

Just think of the Pinkerton in the USA, they are the perfect exemples of the thugs and mercenaries sent by wealthy industrialists against the communities to stop them from organizing during the Industrial Revolution.

So basicaly, the Industrial Revolution sucked for poor people because you had the same problems as before (rich lords/industrialists owning all lands/factories and exploiting you) and lost the few things (tribal family/village community/clan) that once allowed you to survive more easly.
Nobody is arguing that the industrial revolution didn't suck for a quite a lot of people. But consider this? Why did people go into the cities if those sucked so bad? Because life in the country side could suck pretty bad too. It doesn't matter if you have people willing to give you some help if they've got something to spare, if nobody has anything to spare. For example, because some lord need more cash and instituted a new tax. The economic history of peasants in england before around 1346 could be described as more and more of them getting pushed into inheritable debt-slavery/serfdom. The next ten years would massively improve the economic position of the lower classes, but it did that by way mass death, so people actually had to pay a good wage.

Incidentally, that shift in power away from the landed classes is one of the factors that enabled, if not the industrial revolution itself, then its predecessor the industrious revolution.
Oh, cool! Curious that the technological base exists, the logistics exist, but it's not fully developed. Is this more due to this being a transitional period while machinery becomes more precise, or due to another factor like a lack of demand for a larger volume of products in any given area?
The honest answer is, we don't know. There's only ever been one, and so we can't really compare different cases to see what really mattered (unlike with agriculture, cities or writing, which were independently invented in a bunch of places so we can at least make some comparisons). We can point at a bunch of factors, but it's super hard to weigh them, especially because they all interact, and a set together might be critical but useless if even one part is missing.

But I'll point at a few things for your consideration. Number one is that the people there don't know that a concept like the industrial revolution exists, much less what it means. They might be near a tipping point where things get exciting really fast, if they just put in a little more money on incremental improvements and stuff. But if they don't know that, in most cases a small improvement wouldn't be worth that much.
I would bet you that chief grug exerted his influence(muscles) on hunter ug or something even before that. Its not like chimpanzee packs or gorilla families don't have hierarchies, and neither is particularily close to even stumbling on agriculture (i think at least).
There's a difference between hierarchy and a power structure. A power structure is solidified. Grug is boss because he's strong and charismatic, and remains that way only so long as nobody is more so (with some advantage for the incumbent). It's pretty meritocratic that way. And if he's just strong, people can easily just go to the next group. You're probably related to them too.

Agriculture lets you accumulate power over years, hand it to your heirs, and use that power to get more power. You don't need to be strong or charismatic anymore to get a bunch of people to fight for you (though of course it helps). You just need to give them food. And then those people you pay can take the food of other people, so you're making a profit and everyone does what you say. And unlike previously, the people you take the food from can't just leave, because then they'd starve. They have to stay and make more food for you to take (and also eat).

Incidentally, the in-between case of pastoralism has much more fluid power structures, but it still has them because animals do still accumulate, and that can be passed on. But just being able to leave and go somewhere else does put a limit on how tyrannical you can be to them (which applies both internally and for the longest time to external powers too).
Which goes to show why freedom of movement is one of the most important rights to guard against tyranny. Because it can only get so bad if you can just leave (note that not being able to leave can both be because your not allowed or because you can't afford it).
 
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