Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[BurnNote]

Honestly, I kind of want both versions of the Seviroscope. Not sure there would be the will in the thread to sacrifice the AP for that, though.

So if it's only one, or only for a good long while, I'd prefer the visual, because it is a bigger extension of the possibilities. And it doesn't require training.

I wonder if we could commision the auditory version? Could dwarfs (or maybe human engineers) do it, given the visual version to work off and to calibrate? Maybe with a hired wizard as support? Probably not because that seems like gaming the AP system. And working out the details of which materials and how would still be a good amount of effort. Might plausibly be a half-action that way, but this already was a Webmat action, so there's not really improvement to be had.

Imagine the heckling from Regimand, though. And Panoramia. And wizards in general, really. Endless ammunition to poke fun at her with!

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Someone: You are without a doubt the worst Grey Wizard I've ever heard of.
Mathilde: But you have heard of me
Someone: Yes, that's why you're the worst!

Good enough for me.

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Well, we just have to take the black essense, mash the two apparitions together, and have it serve as the breath weapon.

The cultural fear effect would certainly feed itself.

"Kislevites charged our left flank!"
"…what Kislevites?! The Legion is two provinces away, no Kislevites were listed among their forces!"

And then people are telling stories around fires that Winged Lancers can appear out of fog to turn your flank.

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That would require binding at least a dozen more apparitions, which is problematic.

 

[T_of_A]

Visual Windsight Seviroscope is by far the best.

Reasons:

1. The whole "auditory seviroscope could be useful to non-magicals" thing is absurd. This item is going to need enchanters from each College, there is zero chance of it being mass-produced.
2. When your tools are being used to study incredibly esoteric phenomena, they should be as user-friendly as possible to decrease the risk of user error.
3. Understanding the winds is already hard enough without needing to learn to use a whole new tool.
4. The update describes the visual Seviroscope as being good for observations, so if we want a precise examination we should just go with that instead of convincing ourselves that the auditory version will be good enough for imaging.
5. A detailed visual examination of something in lab conditions sounds very useful to Dwarves, but also to Collegiate wizards whose Windsight isn't quite at our level.

 

[Ambit]

You could have a generic template of 'Mounted Witch Hunter' where each one looks like nobody in particular, but you couldn't have Mathilde among them without spending another action on creating an alternate skin.

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Honestly tempting. I might go for this.

 

[Alratan]

The Mathilde Rider would be absolutely amazing in a battlefield scenario. We can have it go around attracting attention while Mathilde is sneaking around invisible or looking like someone else to get in position for a crucial blow.

It's a really powerful option that opens up a lot of things.

And the more we train the Rider, the better it gets. If we can train a spider shaped one to act as a mount rather than just charge and kill things, we can probably train a Mathilde shaped ones to do various useful things.

Yeah, i think that this is the biggest issue with the Kage Bunshin option. Apparitionbinding is battle magic tier dificulty so there is always a chance to miscast, and a miscast might result in the army we fight alongside thinking that Mathilde has gone rogue or mad, turning them against us. It's not the worst or most likely thing to happen, but it would be worse than a regular miscast of its magnitude.

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To be honest, that's a thing a regular miscast can do anyway, temporarily make the wizard attack their friends.

It's also something that we may be able to influence if we build in secondary controls using our Warrior of Fog trait to control what it can perceive.

Also, if we build a summoning spell for it that uses the Staff of Mistery, like the Knights in the Mist spell I proposed, the risk of a Miscast should be much reduced.

The cultural fear effect would certainly feed itself.

"Kislevites charged our left flank!"
"…what Kislevites?! The Legion is two provinces away, no Kislevites were listed among their forces!"

And then people are telling stories around fires that Winged Lancers can appear out of fog to turn your flank.

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I prefer building on the cultural fear effect of having Mathilde Weber on a shadow steed suddenly turn up out of nowhere and kill you.

 

[picklepikkl]

I think recodification would have to be in order.

Given that Apparitions are bound to a wizard's soul using the wizard as a template for their appearance seems very plausible.

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The default form can be Mathilde's but I assume that other wizards could impress their own mental image into the spell themselves. Therefore it could be both decoy and Dämmerlichtreiter tulpa.

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I don't think these are safe assumptions; what we see of other Apparition-based (or plausibly Apparition-based) magic all use the same appearance, we don't see different "breeds" of Golden Hounds. That's because the control method to tie it to the caster's soul is also what gives it its new appearance, so to give it a different appearance you need to redo the Ulgu coating, you can't just follow Mathilde's method.

Like. The option isn't "the caster on a Shadowsteed." The option is Mathilde on a Shadowsteed. I really think that means that if someone else uses the method we invent, they get Mathilde on a Shadowsteed, not "generic Grey Wizard on a Shadowsteed" or "themself on a Shadowsteed." And I kind of hate that idea.

And would the Dämmerlichtreiter aesthetic be like 'Very obviously Mathilde's build/face' or would it be something much more indistinct? I think if Grey Wizards went around summoning Mathildes in the future, it would get weird. In a disturbing way.

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It'd definitely be her.

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You could have a generic template of 'Mounted Witch Hunter' where each one looks like nobody in particular, but you couldn't have Mathilde among them without spending another action on creating an alternate skin.

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OK, that seems like the death of the "oh, it can just be whoever cast the spell" theory. It would look like Mathilde, and reskinning it would require redoing the method, so we couldn't codify a Dammerlichtreiter version without it summoning copies of Mathilde.

Currently I am going for Spider (because while it doesn't have the devastating power of a charge, it does have an ambush factor, which is great for when we are pressed in close-quarters and need to deploy it) or Winged Lancer.

 

[Nickan]

Spoiler: Dr. Doom on apparent clones

"Why do they look like me? Doesn't it create the possibility that I am one? That Doom may, at any moment, be a mere machine? That I am not myself? Of course it does. That is how I wish it. I once let Arcade strike a match on me, just to mantain that confusion. Think, boy. If I am ever defeated, or dishonored-- If I ever act in ways unworthy of myself... If I ever die... The word goes out: "It must have been a Doombot." And the reverse is true. My robots often fool my foes-- I may be a robot now, speaking these words. How would you know? How would I? What is Doom? The flesh and blood that I can swap in and out of at my convenience? The mind I have copied to a thousand machines? No. Doom cannot fit in such small containers. I am not my body. Not my mind. I am... I am the old trunk, filled with ancient mysteries. I am the explosion in the college laboratory. I am the mask that burns with the fires of vengeance. I am the legend that unites this nation. I am the story of Doom"

Turning Mathilde Weber into a legend enhances our fear factor, enhances surprise as people consistently underestimate or overestimate, casts doubt on whether the PC actually did something or was somewhere. Is Mathilde embroiled in a battle at Ostland? Is she looking over your shoulder? You have seen her 'killed' thrice now, yet the avenging spirit (recall, the average commoner does not know about apparitions) always returns. It's a fun narrative and I am here for it.

 

[Mopman43]

I do love that we had basically no idea how Mathilde and Egrimm could make a Seviroscope but they're both experienced enough in esoteric magic stuff that they basically had two workable ideas within 20 minutes.

 

[Broccoliccoli]

Omg I must found the perfect intersection of Could plausibly show up anywhere and Makes opponents shit their pants.

[ ] Teclis

 

[BeepSmile]

The Default Drunkard is one of the most feared opponents on Mallus.

Though that's a bit too demonic

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Not only that, an image of The Default Drunkard becomes The Default Drunkard.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

Okay, @Boney, might be pushing it a little, but is 'the personal binder on a shadowsteed' viable as a skin? Or is that too variable to really work?

 

[DragonParadox]

I don't think these are safe assumptions; what we see of other Apparition-based (or plausibly Apparition-based) magic all use the same appearance, we don't see different "breeds" of Golden Hounds. That's because the control method to tie it to the caster's soul is also what gives it its new appearance, so to give it a different appearance you need to redo the Ulgu coating, you can't just follow Mathilde's method.

Like. The option isn't "the caster on a Shadowsteed." The option is Mathilde on a Shadowsteed. I really think that means that if someone else uses the method we invent, they get Mathilde on a Shadowsteed, not "generic Grey Wizard on a Shadowsteed" or "themself on a Shadowsteed." And I kind of hate that idea.



OK, that seems like the death of the "oh, it can just be whoever cast the spell" theory. It would look like Mathilde, and reskinning it would require redoing the method, so we couldn't codify a Dammerlichtreiter version without it summoning copies of Mathilde.

Currently I am going for Spider (because while it doesn't have the devastating power of a charge, it does have an ambush factor, which is great for when we are pressed in close-quarters and need to deploy it) or Winged Lancer.

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Much as I hate to speak against the We even by pseudo daemon proxy I think spiders are very bad:

• They are scary as hell to just about any friendly army a Grey Wizard might be part of while not being that much more scary to the people we are likely to fight
• They are vastly less able to manipulate their environments than any sort of knight, which is to say the people with opposable thumbs
• They are blatantly obvious and cannot be used for misdirection or escape, indeed on a busy street they might cause a riot

 

[Gavin Prince]

"And here to demonstrate her latest spell invention after her very classified trip abroad, is Lady Magister Mathilde Weber!"

Demonstrations of Battle Magic were rare, of new Battle Magic even rarer, and the circumstances surrounding this newest spell and its creator had ensured a fully packed auditorium.

Speculation over Lady Magister Weber's three-month sabbatical trip had been common fodder for the Apprentice gossip mill for several months, and had risen to a fever pitch after the rumours that she had brought back with her a newly codified and unique application of Ulgu turned out to be true. Those few Battle Wizards read in on her methodology had been sworn to secrecy, the insights into its workings apparently quite foreign to the traditional frames of reference used for the College's existing Battle Magic.

Where, then, had she been? Whence came the spell they were here to witness? Naggarond, whispered some. An invitation taken up from the Dark Elven ambassadors in Laurelorn to fight common foes. Shadow Warriors, guessed one crowd, though none could put forth a convincing suggestion for how she might have secured a spot among them. Eshin, murmured a handful who had been read into secrets that they really should know better than to spread around.

Stepping up to the stage, the surprisingly short woman strikes an odd pose. The crowd falls quiet, eagerly leaning in to glean from their Windsight enough to justify the wagers they'd made. After a brief introduction, the Lady Magister begins to pull a vortex of swirling Ulgu from the enriched air of the auditorium into her shadow. She crosses the fingers of both hands as she shouts

"Kage Bunshin no Jutsu!"

As the smoke clears, a ghostly duplicate of the Lady Magister is revealed, the glare of its pitch-black eyes only slightly more intimidating than the original. Silence in the auditorium, until one voice rings out from the cheap seats:

"For Sigmar's sake, it was Nippon. She's a bloody Weeaboo!"

 

[consequences]

Since we aren't being attacked by time traveling Grey College students, we clearly need to up our game. Naming it after us and giving them a visual identification to help track us down seems like a right and proper escalation to me.

 

[Chronic]

I just noticed how similiar a sudden knight summoning looks to the Bretonnian Green Knight arriving on the battlefield.

Could we design the Apparition to look like the Green Knight if we wanted to mess with our chivalrous neighbors?

 

[DakkaMania]

[ ] [SEVIROSCOPE] Auditory
[ ] [SEVIROSCOPE] Visual

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Auditory would be kinda amazing as it is basically a magical geiger counter.

As noted, villages would get warning ahead of time.

Witch Hunters have a way to reliably detect magic afoot (...which is rather neutral in effect given how burn happy they are versus additional plots uncovered/Wizards recruited)

Even for armies this might be useful to know if they are about to march into a dhar saturated area...

...could this detect warpstone at a useful range?

The same Warpstone Skaven use as currency and in all their tech?

 

[K von Carstein]

[ ] [RIDER] Mounted Wraiths

I don't care that it's spooky, that's just too cool.

 

[Alratan]

I don't think these are safe assumptions; what we see of other Apparition-based (or plausibly Apparition-based) magic all use the same appearance, we don't see different "breeds" of Golden Hounds. That's because the control method to tie it to the caster's soul is also what gives it its new appearance, so to give it a different appearance you need to redo the Ulgu coating, you can't just follow Mathilde's method.

Like. The option isn't "the caster on a Shadowsteed." The option is Mathilde on a Shadowsteed. I really think that means that if someone else uses the method we invent, they get Mathilde on a Shadowsteed, not "generic Grey Wizard on a Shadowsteed" or "themself on a Shadowsteed." And I kind of hate that idea.

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I don't think the basic binding could do it. I do think a manifestation spell could be designed that uses an illusion to customise the appearance of the Apparition, possibly to something that can be chosen at casting time.

Also, @Nickan has convinced me of the value of having multiple Mathildes running around.

It is also a great next step. After naming a spell after herself, Mathilde has gone so far as to make her new spell an actual copy of herself.

It would also be a great way for Grey Wizards to use Malfean stealth to intervene in battles. They were never there. The legendary Lady Magister Weber just teleported in, kiled some bad guys, cast some spells, and teleported out again without a word.

We've said that Mathilde plays the James Bond distraction role for the Grey College. This is just doing this even more directly.

 

[DragonParadox]

Auditory would be kinda amazing as it is basically a magical geiger counter.

As noted, villages would get warning ahead of time.

Witch Hunters have a way to reliably detect magic afoot (...which is rather neutral in effect given how burn happy they are versus additional plots uncovered/Wizards recruited)

Even for armies this might be useful to know if they are about to march into a dhar saturated area...

...could this detect warpstone at a useful range?

The same Warpstone Skaven use as currency and in all their tech?

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We are talking about 8 different enchanters and dwarf quality manufacturing, no witch hunter is going to have the resources to buy thing thing.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Omg I must found the perfect intersection of Could plausibly show up anywhere and Makes opponents shit their pants.

[ ] Teclis

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No, no, no. Teclis is a mage, people would be expecting him to cast spells.

We need someone who is more... martial.

[ ] Magnus the Pious

 

[Boney]

Visual Windsight Seviroscope is by far the best.

Reasons:

1. The whole "auditory seviroscope could be useful to non-magicals" thing is absurd. This item is going to need enchanters from each College, there is zero chance of it being mass-produced.

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We are talking about 8 different enchanters and dwarf quality manufacturing, no witch hunter is going to have the resources to buy thing thing.

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Perhaps not even enchantments. If the valve is properly balanced and oiled, it could be infused with a Wind so that it is attracted or repelled by what it needs to be detecting.

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Once a design is nailed down, it could be made by entirely non-magical artisans using materials the Gold Order can supply in bulk.

Okay, @Boney, might be pushing it a little, but is 'the personal binder on a shadowsteed' viable as a skin? Or is that too variable to really work?

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Way too variable. Closest you could do is make it look like a stereotypical Grey Wizard on a Shadowsteed with a face that looks like nobody in particular.

...could this detect warpstone at a useful range?

The same Warpstone Skaven use as currency and in all their tech?

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It could be possible in the absence of significant levels of background magic.

 

[Andres]

It would be pretty bad if some grey wizard misscasted and there was suddenly Mathilde going on a rampage against everything.

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Yeah, i think that this is the biggest issue with the Kage Bunshin option. Apparitionbinding is battle magic tier dificulty so there is always a chance to miscast, and a miscast might result in the army we fight alongside thinking that Mathilde has gone rogue or mad, turning them against us. It's not the worst or most likely thing to happen, but it would be worse than a regular miscast of its magnitude.

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That's impossible. In Divided Loyalties, summoning the golden hounds has no miscast chance whatsoever. Instead, the risk of the golden hounds is frontloaded into actually acquiring them.

 

[henkalv]

Empire Knight, winged lancer and visual for me.

The idea of a copy of the caster is appealing though, it leans into the misdirection aspect of ulgu, and making cavalry chase after a fake wizard is appealing if wizards fear of cavalry is the reason red riders look like they do. Pleasing symmetry. Don't think that is in any of the current options though.

 

[DragonParadox]

That's impossible. In Divided Loyalties, summoning the golden hounds has no miscast chance whatsoever. Instead, the risk of the golden hounds is frontloaded into actually acquiring them.

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I think they have a lower miscast chance not nil. Might be FC level odds of miscast to make up for the front loading,

 

[Andres]

I love how Johann punched out a Red Rider. That's not just knocking out a dude, that's knocking out a whole ass horse too! Horses are notoriously difficult to punch out with human limbs!

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

Way too variable. Closest you could do is make it look like a stereotypical Grey Wizard on a Shadowsteed with a face that looks like nobody in particular.

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Alas, too beautiful a dream to be real. Oh well, maybe for the best anyway. While 'generic grey wizard' can be useful in its own right, the image of a Rider breaking its bindings and rampaging through innocents while still looking like a grey wizard is beyond bad, generic or not.