Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Glau]

I'm too busy to keep up with the thread, so I'm leaving my vote in the hands of someone I trust

[X] Glau

This how you do it? First time I vote by username.

Click to shrink...

Oh. Oh I'm super flattered.

And also voting for single-digit plans in a lonely idiosyncratic stand against two of the minor quibble bits that the rest of the plans all agree on?

So I feel kinda weird having this happen on this vote?

If you agree that pushing Eike to learn enchanting and trying to create a liminal realm off somewhere in the badlands are both bad ideas, then it's good. 👍

Otherwise, I like

[] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope

best.

He's honestly a little bit of an enigma. To the point I can't think of a good Social action we could suggest with him because we know so little about him outside of work and Boney needs more than "Just talk to the guy" for a write-in.

Click to shrink...

There's so much empty space, for how well developed a character he is.

Where did he grow up? Where is his family now? Does he have a faith, or just a tradition? Who does he have a crush on? What's the weirdest thing he's ever forged for someone? What's his favorite food? Does he like any music?

How many of the Waystone project has he already slept with?

And let's not forget how Johann just recently showed such a keen ability to sense metals that he surpassed even a Grey Lord who specialises in Metallurgy in a very specific area. He's isn't a very mystical person, but he's personable, reliable, tough, charming and very, very daring. He's willing to go to hell and back with us without much of a question. No matter where we go, I can probably think of a use for him.

Click to shrink...

I really want to bully him into being the next head of WEBMAT after we retire. He'd be great, and honestly I think he'd transition the institution from being a glorified lab for one lady magister to a collection of scholars doing different things on their own.

Get him to take the job, tell him to delegate, send him out to recruit. Not sure if in that order?

 

[Retrueno]

Sure, you can get some value. I just don't think it's worth the costs, whether they're material costs, reputational costs, or opportunity costs.

Click to shrink...

Honestly I feel thinking that there's nothing of value we can trade with Naggaroth is extremely arrogant. Like if that is your argument, if truly Naggaroth, despite promising magical secrets being on the able, cannot offer something that is worth even 1 AP from Mathilde, why do you think the Elfication will be worth for Mathilde to do? What kind of massive benefit could they offer Mathilde that is worth the opportunity cost of 3 AP of her time.

The Ulthuani Ambassador in Altdorf is from Nagarythe, it's how we got the invitation. It's not too much of a stretch to think that their ambassador knows about Nordland-Middenland, and it's not too much of a stretch to go from there to hearing about Eonir converting to Ulric, and from there to putting eyes on Laurelorn.

I don't think it's a particularly big risk factor, mind, but it's one that we don't need to deal with.

Click to shrink...

If you go by that logic then it's not too much of a stretch to think they would know about the Waystone project, especialy considering how long ago it was offered to us... but wait, they're not aware, because if they were the Asur would already be here. In fact I will argue they don't even know the Druchii is here, because if they were then the Asur would already be here (or the ambassor would have tried to do something and we would have heard of it).

I feel something that the thread likes to do everytime Mathilde is going to do something that could have a bad impact on her reputation (which I don't even think that's the case here) is that absolutly everyone will know. In this case it doesn't matter that it's a closed door meeting, everyone in the old world will somehow discover Mathilde traded something with the Druchii and they will take it so bad her repuation will be ruined for years to come (no matter what she has traded), and of course the Asur will know too, and anyone else relevant really.

I really feel that the you're putting the absolute worst possible situation to a point it's not beliable, at least for me.

Like: trade spices and interesting creatures for information about how to kill Skaven and magic information of a tradition that they have been refining from thousands of years -> Nah, not as valuable as the Moon Shrine action, besides it will absolutly ruin Mathilde

 

[fictionfan]

That really would be perfect! Assuming that whatever Hedge energies used are viable for herding. Which, given Mathilde can sense them and uniquely identify them, is more likely true than not (and finding out would be research in itself). A combination Ulgu/Hedge Enchantment would definitely be something interesting to explore once we've succeeded on a Teclisian enchantment better than our lacklustre saddle roll and the offscreen and notedly laborious capstone did.

But while it definitely falls under WEB-MAT's mission statement narratively, mechanically it can't be an institutional action as it doesn't involve a second member. So it's competing with full AP options. Still, it's a neat pie-in-the-sky thing.

Click to shrink...

We would need to find a priest of Randal that uses divine magic to give ourselves some sort of starting point.

 

[Nurgle]

Ok first we know a Randal priest, second Randal has gone out of his way to show other Randal followers to not mess with Mathilde. I think any Randal follower will know Mathilde is a follower.

 

[Gavin Prince]

That's likely to make setting up a meeting in the first place tricky, but I think Ranald's direct endorsement would be enough to lay that fear to rest.

Click to shrink...

Also something the Gambler could help with nudging. I think [X] "Receive Training: Hedgecraft (from Middenland Hedgewise)" has enough points of random failure that it would practically beg the coin's use for that turn.

 

[BeepSmile]

"Direct her to spend time on her faith" Is exactly what I don't want to do. I think this is basically the ur-example of something that should come from personal initiative or not at all.

Click to shrink...

Well I've made my argument as to the potential downside of 'Awe of Mathilde' trait some posts above. [And there's a whole bunch of how we each view 'religion'/'faith' IRL, and what those are in the fictional world of WHF, and that just sounds like a boring conversation to explore]

So....

Ok then.
When it comes to it, may the best plan variant be the one that is voted for by the thread.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Also something the Gambler could help with nudging. I think "Receive Training: Hedgecraft (from Middenland Hedgewise") has enough points of random failure that it would practically beg the coin's use for that turn.

Click to shrink...

The more I think about this, the more I'm warming up to trying at some point. If there was one magical tradition that we might expect to be at least somewhat compatible with Ulgu spellcasting, it'd surely be the magical tradition that Teclis recruited the original Grey College wizards from. All of those recruits had to be able to do both.

Now, it's possible that the Colleges have diverged enough in 200 years from their origins that they're no longer compatible at all, or that Mathilde is sufficiently entrenched in her own understanding of magic that she can't make this paradigm work, but I think that success is surprisingly plausible here. Or that at the very least, we'd learn about another viewpoint on magic, specifically from a group that don't have books we can get

 

[Retrueno]

Whatever they buy, they'll use to their maximum advantage, just as we would. It can be that they'll keep it quiet, but I don't think that's assured. If they have the opportunity to exchange it for something juicier or important, why wouldn't they? I view this trade opportunity similarly to our opportunities to cut deals with Clan Eshin. The fundamental problem is that they're not allies, and not trustworthy except to act in their own interest.

Click to shrink...

Sorry I forgot to adress this point.

First their pressence in the Old World is almost nill except for raiding so they're really not in a position to exchange it with anyone in the old world, much less the Asur.

Second, I expect us to do the same. If we get lessons in how to cast with True Dhar I expect us to share how they do it and how to counter it without any problems, in fact I expect us to share them with the Shadow Warriors so they get better at killing more Druchii.

Third, the comment was about something like, if Mathilde learned "The First Great Secret of Wind Magic" from the Sorceress then you can bet Mathilde would share with the Colleges in a heart beat. The reverse is not true, if the Sorceress learned something like that she wouldn't share it in Naggaroth, instead she would use it to advance her own interests and achieve greater positions instead of sharing it for the well of all Naggaroth. Also take note the Sorceress is here without Morathi permission if she so much realizes this trade has happened she will get killed.

And other important things like for example information that would allow us to gain Waaaghbane? It wouldn't be just the Colleges we would be sharing it with, but the whole Old World, just like we did when we got the trait.

 

[Mopman43]

All of those recruits had to be able to do both.

Click to shrink...

Not necessarily.

Hedge magic doesn't have Arcane Marks. I don't think there's anything stopping a Hedge practitioner from using their magic for many years and then being brought to the Colleges, where, in theory, they acquire an Ulgu Arcane Mark that locks them out from using Hedge Magic.

 

[Gavin Prince]

The more I think about this, the more I'm warming up to trying at some point. If there was one magical tradition that we might expect to be at least somewhat compatible with Ulgu spellcasting, it'd surely be the magical tradition that Teclis recruited the original Grey College wizards from. All of those recruits had to be able to do both.

Click to shrink...

It does sound like fun. Polishing off Orbs/AV/Nagarythe/(maybe apparitions) in the next three turns, we're left with just the Waystones (and maybe Seviroscope if the first action this turn isn't just "nope") as a multi-turn project. Prime time to start thinking about the next obsession to foist onto the thread.

 

[LadyLynn]

Also something the Gambler could help with nudging. I think [X] "Receive Training: Hedgecraft (from Middenland Hedgewise)" has enough points of random failure that it would practically beg the coin's use for that turn.

Click to shrink...

I haven't been paying attention to the thread lately so I might've missed some discussion, but putting aside whether or not this is a plausible course of action, surely Father would be the appropriate Coin use for something like this?

 

[Parabola]

We would need to find a priest of Randal that uses divine magic to give ourselves some sort of starting point.

Click to shrink...

IIRC Boney has said before that you can't wield divine magic if you have Arcane Marks, or wield the Winds if you have the equivalent for divine casters. Any chance of wielding Ranald's magic vanished a long time ago.

But Hedgecraft doesn't appear to be the same. I imagine we'll find out at some point.

 

[Gavin Prince]

I haven't been paying attention to the thread lately so I might've missed some discussion, but putting aside whether or not this is a plausible course of action, surely Father would be the appropriate Coin use for something like this?

Click to shrink...

Father helps with Ranald's daughters. We can't learn Hedgecraft from the Halethan Hedgewise because—as much as they like us—we don't worship Haletha and Hedgecraft falls very much under "cult secrets".

We'd need to work with the Ranaldites who we do share a faith with, and the Father coin doesn't help with them.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Not necessarily.

Hedge magic doesn't have Arcane Marks. I don't think there's anything stopping a Hedge practitioner from using their magic for many years and then being brought to the Colleges, where, in theory, they acquire an Ulgu Arcane Mark that locks them out from using Hedge Magic.

Click to shrink...

That's true. It might not be backwards compatible. It'd be very impressive for Kurtis to make it to Lord Magister without any Arcane Marks, but it's possible.

Hedge magic, from what we've seen in the quest, seems more... externally handled? We know that you need magical potential to be a Hedgewise, so the soul does come into play, but it seems to rely a lot on external reagants etc.

I'd be down to spend an AP to investigate the possibility at some point, after our current ongoing projects are wrapped up (AV, apparitions, possibly the Seviroscope)

 

[Mopman43]

First their pressence in the Old World is almost nill except for raiding so they're really not in a position to exchange it with anyone in the old world, much less the Asur.

Click to shrink...

Being fair, we've seen some Druchii diplomacy in the Old World already- the Druchii that we captured in K8P that was apparently in talks with Moulder.

And, well, Laurelorn has been open for diplomacy for about a decade and Druchii already showed up.

I expect that there are Druchii that will take every advantage they can get, including diplomatic where possible.

It'd be very impressive for Kurtis to make it to Lord Magister without any Arcane Marks, but it's possible.

Click to shrink...

I really can't imagine them making him a Lord Magister without having the assurance that he can't just detox from Ulgu and move to another College.

 

[Tobtorp]

Father helps with Ranald's daughters. We can't learn hedgecraft from the Halethan Hedgewise because—as much as they like us—we don't worship Haletha and Hedgecraft falls very much under "cult secrets".

We'd need to work with the Ranaldites who we do share a faith with, and the Father coin doesn't help with them.

Click to shrink...

Mostly because we can just show them the coin and they will like us quite a bit. Or let ranald make our introduction again.

 

[dinomannitro6]

I'd be down to spend an AP to investigate at some point, after our current ongoing projects are wrapped up (AV, apparitions, possibly the Seviroscope)

Click to shrink...

If it is compatible with colligate magic, its literally the kind of thing we set up WEBMAT to do, working with divine or "divine" magic users

 

[ReImagined]

Honestly I feel thinking that there's nothing of value we can trade with Naggaroth is extremely arrogant. Like if that is your argument, if truly Naggaroth, despite promising magical secrets being on the able, cannot offer something that is worth even 1 AP from Mathilde, why do you think the Elfication will be worth for Mathilde to do? What kind of massive benefit could they offer Mathilde that is worth the opportunity cost of 3 AP of her time.

Click to shrink...

I said that there is value, it's just not worth paying the assorted costs for it, which is different from saying there's nothing of value.

Regarding magical lore, we can't legally use Dark Magic, and that's what they're best at. The stuff that's not Dark Magic, we can probably get from the Eonir or Ulthuan at some point.

Elfcation is not something I am particularly enthusiastic about, but from the amount of chatter it's gotten I expect it to happen soon-ish. I believe people want elfcation because they want adventure, to exercise Mathilde's skills and see Arhain in action.

I feel something that the thread likes to do everytime Mathilde is going to do something that could have a bad impact on her reputation (which I don't even think that's the case here) is that absolutly everyone will know. In this case it doesn't matter that it's a closed door meeting, everyone in the old world will somehow discover Mathilde traded something with the Druchii and they will take it so bad her repuation will be ruined for years to come (no matter what she has traded), and of course the Asur will know too, and anyone else relevant really.

I really feel that the you're putting the absolute worst possible situation to a point it's not beliable, at least for me.

Like: trade spices and interesting creatures for information about how to kill Skaven and magic information of a tradition that they have been refining from thousands of years -> Nah, not as valuable as the Moon Shrine action, besides it will absolutly ruin Mathilde

Click to shrink...

I feel like you're missing what I'm saying. It's not 'absolutely everybody will know,' or 'we will fail if we do this,' it's 'the risks of this happening outweigh the benefits we gain.'

As for opportunity costs, there's a very large list of things on the backlog that we could be spending our AP on, but haven't. Shadow Sword, Arcane Mark control, Fog based Battle Magic, Gyrocarriage enchanting, etc, in addition to more waystone actions.

Don't have the time to address everything else, so let's agree to disagree.

 

[picklepikkl]

It does sound like fun. Polishing off Orbs/AV/Nagarythe/(maybe apparitions) in the next three turns, we're left with just the Waystones (and maybe Seviroscope if the first action this turn isn't just "nope") as a multi-turn project. Prime time to start thinking about the next obsession to foist onto the thread.

Click to shrink...

I'm going to bang the drum pretty hard to swing at Arcane Marks as our next self-improvement project after Apparitions. From the preparation for Karag Dum to now, all our major self-improvement projects have been about giving Mathile more power, in various forms: more magical items, more spells, more sword skill. I'm really interested in trying a form of self-improvement that isn't about More Power in some way, but rather about control over the power we've already got.

We keep talking shit to elves about how leaning into our Wind is the strength of the Collegiate approach. I really want to see us try to understand the transformations Ulgu has wrought upon us, and gain some control over them. It doesn't make numbers go up, and it's not breaking new ground, but it moves Mathilde's character in a direction the quest has been building up for a while.

 

[Gavin Prince]

I'm going to bang the drum pretty hard to swing at Arcane Marks as our next self-improvement project after Apparitions.

Click to shrink...

For individual self-improvement, I kinda want to take "[ ] Try to see through Pall of Darkness with magical senses" as a WEBMAT option with Johann and Eike. Probably on Turn 44 as a last-minute self-improvement action before heading off to Ulthuan.

If it works, it's a massive combat multiplier for us, letting us act against or avoid a completely helpless target with impunity. If it doesn't work, then it means Pall of Darkness blanks all magical senses as well as mundane ones, which is something very useful to know before we go into an area where immortal elves who want to kill us will likely have both.

Between Johann's magnetic senses, Eike's Intuitive senses, and our own "Best in Continent" visual windsight, that's a wide cross-section to work with. Pressing her Windsight like this may also serve to ping Eike's Awe trait into Windsage, which would be fantastic.

Either result may end up publishable, too.

 

[Glau]

I'm going to bang the drum pretty hard to swing at Arcane Marks as our next self-improvement project after Apparitions.

Click to shrink...

I like your argument. I'll line up behind this.

 

[Ankermand]

[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope

 

[Retrueno]

Regarding magical lore, we can't legally use Dark Magic, and that's what they're best at. The stuff that's not Dark Magic, we can probably get from the Eonir or Ulthuan at some point.

Click to shrink...

I seriously doubt after multiple thousands of years of separation their knowledge about Ulgu or other related magical topics is the same as the Eonir (in fact, I would doubt if if they were even similar)


Regardless, with how books work if we get Ulgu books from them for example we could get up to +5 from them, same as with any other polity (and no overlap with the Eonir)

 

[Parabola]

I'm going to bang the drum pretty hard to swing at Arcane Marks as our next self-improvement project after Apparitions. From the preparation for Karag Dum to now, all our major self-improvement projects have been about giving Mathile more power, in various forms: more magical items, more spells, more sword skill. I'm really interested in trying a form of self-improvement that isn't about More Power in some way, but rather about control over the power we've already got.

Click to shrink...

Big same. I don't want to start massive multi-part projects, I want to finish all the little things that have been building up for a while.

 

[Abhorsen]

I'm going to bang the drum pretty hard to swing at Arcane Marks as our next self-improvement project after Apparitions. From the preparation for Karag Dum to now, all our major self-improvement projects have been about giving Mathile more power, in various forms: more magical items, more spells, more sword skill. I'm really interested in trying a form of self-improvement that isn't about More Power in some way, but rather about control over the power we've already got.

We keep talking shit to elves about how leaning into our Wind is the strength of the Collegiate approach. I really want to see us try to understand the transformations Ulgu has wrought upon us, and gain some control over them. It doesn't make numbers go up, and it's not breaking new ground, but it moves Mathilde's character in a direction the quest has been building up for a while.

Click to shrink...

To extend this, what are people most afraid of? Melee combat with a swarm. What is our shadow already doing? Randomly crushing the necks of enemies. Seems like a perfect match.