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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Retrueno said:
Personally I don't like how the cult of Verena reacted, it felt very arrogant to me. As if we needed their approval to copy someone else library. Like, if we were to copy the University of Atdolf would we also need to get their approval? And what about other libraries?

That said I think we should try to get in their good graces because it's extremely likely they have tons of rare books we won't be able to get otherwise.
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Isn't the University of Altdorf's library also the Temple of Verena in Altdorf? So specifically in this case, yes?
 
Redshirt Army said:
As for the current topic: I think people are having a bit of a failure of imagination if they're seeing this as a binary "appease Cult of Verena y/n?" situation.

The Nuln Temple of Verena is influential but hardly speaks for the religion across the entire Empire. If we seek closer ties to a different temple of Verena, which will likely be much easier than trying to directly make up for the situation in Nuln, it will still blunt the worst of the accusations against us just as well - the other Temples will see that we're someone who can be negotiated with, it'll take some of the wind out of the "Ranaldian coming to steal all our books" accusations, and it'll limit what the Nuln temple can do against us without risking an internal conflict in their cult.
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I'm starting to veer towards a vague 'can we use the EIC to get a number of the larger Verena temples to think a little better of us?' position. Someone mentioned they need ink and paper and supplies and stuff, and the EIC can help with that [and do some light observation as well :p].
 
Retrueno said:
Personally I don't like how the cult of Verena reacted, it felt very arrogant to me. As if we needed their approval to copy someone else library. Like, if we were to copy the University of Atdolf would we also need to get their approval? And what about other libraries?

That said I think we should try to get in their good graces because it's extremely likely they have tons of rare books we won't be able to get otherwise.
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Unfortunately, we would in fact need the Verenans' permission to copy the University of Altdorf's stuff. According to Andres' big threadmarked post on loreful places, the Temple-Library of Verena essentially acts as the University of Altdorf's library.

That's part of the reason our eyes turned to Nuln in the first place - because we can't copy libraries under Cult authority by using one of our Great Deeds, but the University of Nuln isn't under direct cult authority and has a comparable number of books.

Personally, I think spying on the Cult of the Goddess of Knowledge and Law is a fraught topic, and also overkill for trying to figure them out. Maybe even inefficient given how we know they're very much not a monolith.

If we want to make friends with them, the Protector is right there and I'm sure there's no shortage of Verenans out there that could use assistance of one kind or another.
 
Parabola said:
Personally, I think spying on the Cult of the Goddess of Knowledge and Law is a fraught topic, and also overkill for trying to figure them out. Maybe even inefficient given how we know they're very much not a monolith.
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Ya, spying on the cult whose priests moonlights as detectives, lawyers, persecutors and chaos cult finders whenever needed or there is no witch Hunter/judge/lawyer etc around and seem to do an alright job of it… it's something to think twice about.
 
Parabola said:
Personally, I think spying on the Cult of the Goddess of Knowledge and Law is a fraught topic, and also overkill for trying to figure them out. Maybe even inefficient given how we know they're very much not a monolith.

If we want to make friends with them, the Protector is right there and I'm sure there's no shortage of Verenans out there that could use assistance of one kind or another.
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I would argue that because the cult is not a monolith our method of spying would be specialy effective, there are many more fautlines, lines of comuction and gossip to gather about.

And specialy if we want to make friends, we can say all day that we want to grab the protector and lend assistance, but we have no idea where, and spying is how we make their intern structure less opaque so we don't lose oportunities.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
Ya, spying on the cult whose priests moonlights as detectives, lawyers, persecutors and chaos cult finders whenever needed or there is no witch Hunter/judge/lawyer etc around and seem to do an alright job of it… it's something to think twice about.
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Once more we jump into the Catch-22 of "anyone important enough for the EIC to gather intelligence on will have the resources to sniff us out and that is catastrophic; anyone so small they lack the apparatus to sniff us out is too unimportant to bother with."
 
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As far as I'm concerned, the only organisation where it's too hard to insert spies because they will absolutely catch us out is probably the Grey Order.

Anything else, and I'm sure between Mathilde and the Hochlander we have reasonable odds of success.
 
Redshirt Army said:
For what it's worth, as someone who hates most "cringe comedies" with a passion, I'd suggest you give Bocchi a try sometime - the main thing making the difference for me is that the whole situation is framed as one where you're deeply sympathetic to Bocchi's struggles instead of her just being a punching bag for comedy.
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I'll second this, I didn't really notice it at the time but in retrospect it's kind of incredible how well Bocchi (the show) threaded the needle of being crazy relatable without setting off as Boney put it the 'cringe alarms', which I also very much dread in general. Instead it's almost… comforting? In a camaraderie sort of way.

It's also goddamn hilarious. One of my favourite shows of last year.

Speaking of which, Boney's catch 22 description of social anxiety is perfect and I will be borrowing it IRL in the future whenever the topic comes up. It so perfectly encapsulates the difficulties dealing with it.

I also can't now get it out of my head of Eike miscasting and the result being Bocchi's 'glitching out of reality on the floor' reaction to the idea of social media, complete with unholy how-the-hell-did-the-voice-actress-do-this screaming. Hopefully it's similarly temporary lmao
 
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Man seeing the Druchii with only 52 votes hurts my heart.

I really wanted to trade books with them since those are books we aren't going to be able to get elsewhere no matter what we do.

In fact we could even use them to curry favor with the Cult of Verena or other libraries.
 
Mopman43 said:
The thing is that some of them argue that gatekeeping is their divine mandate.
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And the fact that they cannot even agree with each other on that is extra hilarious, it would be like the Shayllans could bot agree if their mandate was to heal their patients or poison them. :V

On a more serious note the ballooning ideas of things we can do to get on the cult's good side are precisely what I was worried about when the rivalry came up

We still have plenty of places to get books that aren't them, convenient places we have deals with already even. Lets at least go through the latter before we try to appease the wounded pride of the no-canon brigade.
 
Regarding the whole 'who's gonna make the fogpath?' thing, if it is eventually decided that the Grey College will do it, I wonder if our fellow LMs Wilhelmine and Kurtis would be interested in helping.

Not doing it themselves, of course—I can't imagine they have the AP to learn our new Battle Magic and go out to enchant a path through Laurelorn—but with the Empire's economy being Wilhelmine's pet project and Grey College diplomacy being Kurtis' job, they might be able to offer some advice/insight or point us to some appropriately capable Magisters to do the enchanting.
 
mathymancer said:
-When was the last time Mathilde planned a military campaign?
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Okay I agree with most of what you posted as pros/cons... but this is kind of just wrong.

Mathilde hasn't purposefully been the one to plan campaigns sure, but she has had to take over entire armies on several completely vital occasions.

It was Mathilde who was the leader during the battle that led to 8 peaks being fully reclaimed. It was Mathilde who took over leadership and led to the destruction of Castle Drakenhof.

Dismissing the usefulness of military knowledge to Mathilde is kind of completely ridiculous to me.
 
Adhoc vote count started by mathymancer on Jul 6, 2023 at 12:35 PM, finished with 1653 posts and 177 votes.
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With 4 new votes cast in the last 24 hours it seems very unlikely that the top 6 will change. Gold College is now in the top five, having gained 2 votes while The Black Water Canal - the previous fifth spot - lost 5 votes. The top four options all gained 1 vote, and Elementalism, Sofia, Gretel and House Filuan all seem set to win, barring a wave of late voters or of people changing their current votes.
 
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Gavin Prince said:
Once more we jump into the Catch-22 of "anyone important enough for the EIC to gather intelligence on will have the resources to sniff us out and that is catastrophic; anyone so small they lack the apparatus to sniff us out is too unimportant to bother with."
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I'll reiterate my position that just knowing more about the Cult of Verena in general isn't going to really help us get a better rep with them.

I'll also note that those who can cast from the Lore of Verena, while rare, are extremely good at sussing out the truth. Due to Verena's focus on truth and law, such divine spellcasters are probably better than the average Hysh user at being magical detectives. So unlike with the Cult of Karnos and Alric (who was acting as an individual at the time), we would be sending our spies to a Cult that is not only touchy about its knowledge but also capable of figuring out if someone is trying to get a look at that knowledge without their say-so.

Petty Magics (Verena): Magic 1 required to learn and cast reliably.
Blessing of Verena: You briefly bless someone to be keenly aware of injustice and tyranny. If they were considering a crime, they stop and are overwhelmed with guilt.
Blessing of Wisdom: You briefly grant a measure of wisdom to someone else.

Relatively Simple - Magic 2 required to learn, Magic 3 to cast reliably.
Shackles of Verena: You immobilize someone with invisible shackles of magical power. They are helpless and cannot do anything but try to break the shackles.
The Past Revealed: You can touch one object and learn the three most important things about its past. Typically this reveals who made it, important previous owners, or famous incidents involving the item. This spell may only be cast on an item once.

Moderately Complicated - Magic 3 required to learn, Magic 5 to cast reliably.
As Verena Is My Witness: Simply by starting a sentence with "As Verena is my witness," the truth of your words becomes evident to all listeners. As long as you are speaking nothing but truth, you are briefly more persuasive and more people will listen to you.
Eavesdrop: You can listen to what is happening in any area you can see, no matter the distance, hearing things as though you were standing right there.
Owl's Wisdom: Your prayers flood your mind with wisdom, enhancing your critical thinking skills.
Preserve the Balance: Any crime committed against you during this spell's duration, or one minute prior to casting, is immediately returned upon the criminal. If someone stole your purse, the thief's purse itself falls to the ground. If you were punched by a thug, the thug suffers the same punch. Any crime you commit will be returned upon you in turn.
Reprobate's Sentence: You ritualistically accuse someone of crime, and if they are guilty, they will suffer dire consequences until they confess. They will start throwing up continuously from guilt. The spell lasts for several days or until the target confesses.
Retribution: One person within range that you know to be guilty of a crime suffers debilitating pains, acting more slowly in combat. Effect lasts several minutes.
Sword of Justice: Your prayers empower a sword, rendering it magical and more precise. You also are more effective at fighting someone you know to be guilty of a crime.
The Blind Maiden: You may more easily known when you are lying, and may easily pierce any illusions or disguises, as well as spotting hidden people or objects. When using this spell, you may see through a worn blindfold as if it were not there.
Trial by Fire: You subject someone to the ultimate test of guilt or innocence. You accuse them of great injustice, and they are engulfed in divine flames. If the target is innocent of the charge, the flames inflict no damage and dissipate harmlessly. If the target is guilty, they suffer great damage. This miracle is not used lightly and Verenans who use it foolishly are severely 'corrected' by cult superiors.
Words of Truth: You may ask a person a single question, that they must answer truthfully. A character so compelled will answer what they believe is truth, whether it actually is or not. A target can only be asked the same question with this spell once. Rewordings and variants count, questions must be substantially different.

(With the standard disclaimer that this is RPG stuff and that Boney could remove some spells or add in some custom ones as he wishes so it's really more of a guideline.)

DragonParadox said:
And the fact that they cannot even agree with each other on that is extra hilarious, it would be like the Shayllans could bot agree if their mandate was to heal their patients or poison them. :V
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*Looks over at Tome of Salvation, section on Major Fanatical Sects*

Plague Wardens
Plague Wardens believe the central duty of a Shallyan is to protect as many people as possible from the plagues and pestilences pervading the Old World. Rather than treating the victims, they aim to stop the plagues from spreading and creating victims in the first place. Their goal is noble; it is their methods that make them fanatics.

The only way to stop a plague is to destroy the source of the infection. That may mean killing someone with the plague, and then burning the body and boiling the ashes. It might also mean razing a whole section of a town, burning it down while trapping the doomed inhabitants inside. Plague Wardens recognise these acts are unpleasant, but feel they are justified by the greater good.

As Plague Wardens kill people, it goes without saying they are considered dangerous, and worse, by most members of Shallya's cult. Shallyan priestesses who join the cult almost always have difficulty casting spells, due to repeatedly breaking the central stricture of the faith. Plague Wardens see this as a test imposed by their Goddess, to ensure their faith is strong.

While Plague Wardens are violent zealots, they do believe they are acting to save people's lives. Thus, they do not kill on mere suspicion of infection, and all groups of Plague Wardens include at least one person with diagnostic abilities. These abilities are not always very good, but Plague Wardens only kill when they are fairly sure plague is present. They are also among the most implacable adversaries of the Fly Lord, and if they uncover evidence of a group of his cultists, they ignore all their other plans to concentrate on eliminating the greater threat.

Ironically, it is quite likely that the Plague Wardens actually have saved thousands more lives than they have ended. While their membership is very secret, their existence is well known to the educated, and they are a favourite example when priests of Verena discuss ethical dilemmas.

The Suffering Hearts
Shallyan doctrine is suspicious of personal pleasure in a world filled with so much suffering. The Suffering Hearts take this suspicion to an extreme. They are followers of Karin the Pure, a priestess who lived in Nuln a little over two centuries ago, and believed Priestesses of Shallya had to purify themselves of the taint of pleasure and luxury before they could properly minister to the suffering. Attempting to do so while impure was, she claimed, blasphemous.

While Karin was, eventually, cast out by the cult for denouncing the entire hierarchy as blasphemers against Shallya, her followers remain in mainstream temples, and keep their places by moderating their strictures against others. This also gives them more time to inflict suffering on themselves. Minimal food, little sleep, and inadequate protection from the elements are the basic elements of the life of a Suffering Heart. Most believe deliberately inflicting injuries on oneself is an affront to Shallya, so instead they take on hard and dangerous tasks, such as carrying heavy stones up to the top of the temple buildings, and then back down again.

The Suffering Hearts do nothing to relieve the pain of others, because they follow Karin's belief that it would be blasphemous to do so before they have been purified. Some Suffering Hearts do see visions that they take to be signs from the Goddess that they have been purified, and these individuals start to help. The proportion of miracle-workers among them, while not high, is higher than among other priestesses. Others, however, never feel pure enough, and as a result the cult hierarchy tries to discourage these beliefs. The Goddess of Mercy, however, cannot condone harsh measures against people who are merely misguided followers.

The Suffering Hearts are not a sect, as they have no internal organisation, and their interpretations of Karin's beliefs can vary a great deal. Indeed, this sort of belief has been present in the Shallyan faith for centuries, and Karin's particular version has little sway outside the Empire.
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The main concern of Shallya is to alleviate suffering and relieve pain. While that generally tends to be taken as healing people, there is enough conceptual room in there for sects such as these to pop up due to people legit believing that purging plagued towns or depriving themselves is necessary to alleviate suffering.

So it's not really that shocking to me that Verenans are heavily divided on how to approach the subject of safeguarding all knowledge and observing the sanctity justice. Is knowledge best preserved by spreading it far and wide, or by keeping it under lock and key and faithful watchers? Is justice what's written in law or is it what you yourself believe to be just? These are questions that are more divisive than what Shallyans face, I think.
 
NavySeel said:
Okay I agree with most of what you posted as pros/cons... but this is kind of just wrong.

Mathilde hasn't purposefully been the one to plan campaigns sure, but she has had to take over entire armies on several completely vital occasions.

It was Mathilde who was the leader during the battle that led to 8 peaks being fully reclaimed. It was Mathilde who took over leadership and led to the destruction of Castle Drakenhof.

Dismissing the usefulness of military knowledge to Mathilde is kind of completely ridiculous to me.
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The latest of those things - Waaagh Birdmuncha - happened 16 turns ago, which is exactly my point. Is there any sort of action we're planning anytime soon that'll benefit from those sort of books?
 
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Parabola said:
I'll reiterate my position that just knowing more about the Cult of Verena in general isn't going to really help us get a better rep with them.

I'll also note that those who can cast from the Lore of Verena, while rare, are extremely good at sussing out the truth. Due to Verena's focus on truth and law, such divine spellcasters are probably better than the average Hysh user at being magical detectives. So unlike with the Cult of Karnos and Alric (who was acting as an individual at the time), we would be sending our spies to a Cult that is not only touchy about its knowledge but also capable of figuring out if someone is trying to get a look at that knowledge without their say-so.

Petty Magics (Verena): Magic 1 required to learn and cast reliably.
Blessing of Verena: You briefly bless someone to be keenly aware of injustice and tyranny. If they were considering a crime, they stop and are overwhelmed with guilt.
Blessing of Wisdom: You briefly grant a measure of wisdom to someone else.

Relatively Simple - Magic 2 required to learn, Magic 3 to cast reliably.
Shackles of Verena: You immobilize someone with invisible shackles of magical power. They are helpless and cannot do anything but try to break the shackles.
The Past Revealed: You can touch one object and learn the three most important things about its past. Typically this reveals who made it, important previous owners, or famous incidents involving the item. This spell may only be cast on an item once.

Moderately Complicated - Magic 3 required to learn, Magic 5 to cast reliably.
As Verena Is My Witness: Simply by starting a sentence with "As Verena is my witness," the truth of your words becomes evident to all listeners. As long as you are speaking nothing but truth, you are briefly more persuasive and more people will listen to you.
Eavesdrop: You can listen to what is happening in any area you can see, no matter the distance, hearing things as though you were standing right there.
Owl's Wisdom: Your prayers flood your mind with wisdom, enhancing your critical thinking skills.
Preserve the Balance: Any crime committed against you during this spell's duration, or one minute prior to casting, is immediately returned upon the criminal. If someone stole your purse, the thief's purse itself falls to the ground. If you were punched by a thug, the thug suffers the same punch. Any crime you commit will be returned upon you in turn.
Reprobate's Sentence: You ritualistically accuse someone of crime, and if they are guilty, they will suffer dire consequences until they confess. They will start throwing up continuously from guilt. The spell lasts for several days or until the target confesses.
Retribution: One person within range that you know to be guilty of a crime suffers debilitating pains, acting more slowly in combat. Effect lasts several minutes.
Sword of Justice: Your prayers empower a sword, rendering it magical and more precise. You also are more effective at fighting someone you know to be guilty of a crime.
The Blind Maiden: You may more easily known when you are lying, and may easily pierce any illusions or disguises, as well as spotting hidden people or objects. When using this spell, you may see through a worn blindfold as if it were not there.
Trial by Fire: You subject someone to the ultimate test of guilt or innocence. You accuse them of great injustice, and they are engulfed in divine flames. If the target is innocent of the charge, the flames inflict no damage and dissipate harmlessly. If the target is guilty, they suffer great damage. This miracle is not used lightly and Verenans who use it foolishly are severely 'corrected' by cult superiors.
Words of Truth: You may ask a person a single question, that they must answer truthfully. A character so compelled will answer what they believe is truth, whether it actually is or not. A target can only be asked the same question with this spell once. Rewordings and variants count, questions must be substantially different.

(With the standard disclaimer that this is RPG stuff and that Boney could remove some spells or add in some custom ones as he wishes so it's really more of a guideline.)


*Looks over at Tome of Salvation, section on Major Fanatical Sects*


The main concern of Shallya is to alleviate suffering and relieve pain. While that generally tends to be taken as healing people, there is enough conceptual room in there for sects such as these to pop up due to people legit believing that purging plagued towns or depriving themselves is necessary to alleviate suffering.

So it's not really that shocking to me that Verenans are heavily divided on how to approach the subject of safeguarding all knowledge and observing the sanctity justice. Is knowledge best preserved by spreading it far and wide, or by keeping it under lock and key and faithful watchers? Is justice what's written in law or is it what you yourself believe to be just? These are questions that are more divisive than what Shallyans face, I think.
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In terms of preserving knowledge there really is no question, you spread it since the more instances it exists in the less likely it is to be lost, not in terms of preserving power over knowledge and the power of the cult... ;)
 
mathymancer said:
Those latest of those things - Waaagh Birdmuncha - happened 26 turns ago, which is exactly my point. Is there any sort of action we're planning anytime soon that'll benefit from those sort of books?
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As far as I know Mathilde in no way planned on leading the defense of an entire Karak while literally everyone else was away.

None of these times are things that have been planned for, so acting like the fact we don't plan on using it is somehow going to stop it being useful is just shortsighted to me.
 
NavySeel said:
As far as I know Mathilde in no way planned on leading the defense of an entire Karak while literally everyone else was away.

None of these times are things that have been planned for, so acting like the fact we don't plan on using it is somehow going to stop it being useful is just shortsighted to me.
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Having books on combat doesn't make Mathilde a better strategist, she needs time to actually consult those books. If Mathilde suddenly finds herself in command of an army she can't go to the library and read up on her books. And as I said in the post of my pros and cons list we're going to get all those books anyway, the question is which ones to start with, so the question isn't "is knowledge on war and combat ever going to be useful" but "is knowledge on war and combat likely to be useful sometime soon", in which case I think it's reasonable to point out that the last time Mathilde used that kind of knowledge was 8 in-game years and 2.5 real life years ago (and also that was in a setting where Mathilde wouldn't have time to use her library anyway).
 
A good while ago I bought a drawing tablet, because I wanted to get good better at drawing but the idea of not having an undo button gives me anxiety. Recently I pulled it out and actually started doing that. Even more recently (I think it was @pucflek's commission) I thought to myself "Why not draw some DL? Good cause for a reread, should be fun". So the plan is to start at the very beginning of DL, and work my way forwards, drawing (at least) one scene for each update. I thought to share the first (meager) results, so below is the final part of character creation, and then the first view of Eagle Castle.


View: https://imgur.com/a/g6ojJon

First one I have some mixed feelings. It came out better than I expected in some ways, Regimand especially, but as a whole it still doesn't look right. Mathilde is off in size, and they both look like they're wearing pajamas. But I hit the point where I just plain didn't want to work on it any more. So I didn't . I did learn a lot. Just general usage of the program, playing with texture, and being able to rearrange parts relative to each other is really nice. Using layers, it even comes with builtin perspective!

Now, the second one is just a sketch. I'm actually fairly pleased, it does not look too bad. And oh man, it is so much easier to work from a reference. My first free-hand try was terrible and depressing. Finding a reference wasn't easy though, because eagle castle has two entrances, and that's not a standard design feature. So I just picked something closeish, and duplicated the gatehouse. Eagle castle also doesn't have towers, but I noticed that a little too late, and they look cool, so they're here to stay.

I thought about leaving it at that. But I wanted to experiment with color filling, and that's easier on a building. And the result is... it really doesn't work well on the sketch. So I started drawing an outline, we're the lines are properly closed. Not done with that though, and I'm improving on the perspective while I'm at it, so that'll take a while longer.
 
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