Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Jyn Ryvia]

That is true, on the other hand we are already rivals, any attempts to mend bridges would also come with costs and concessions, is the balance still as favorable when one considers those? What if we try to mend bridges and they ask for something unacceptable (getting rid of those nasty unsanctified spiders for instance and replacing them with good pious Verenans as an example)? That would leave the tensions even worse than it was. Then too one must consider that we do not have infinite AP to deal with their ruffled feathers. We are not in the position to choose 'rivals or friends' we are rivals and we have to decide if we let sleeping dogs lie and make as much hay out of it as we can with those who bear the cult no love or if we take the time and effort to attempt to turn it around, knowing that it might not work.

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We have tensions with one group of a very spread out cult. We are far from the point of no return, let alone rivals.

Like, your argument is us picking a fight because we think it's already too late to smooths things without giving up a leg. So might as well go whole hog.

We don't t know how bad it is, but I doubt it's even close to that bad yet, maybe if we let it simmer or do more stuff to piss them off.

But we are not there yet.

 

[Mopman43]

They were isolationist, but have accepted that doesn't work anymore.

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Some of them have. At the moment a majority, but it's not impossible that trying to quickly transition to Entrepôt would drive some houses to the isolationists.

Navigating Eonir politics would be a rather crucial part of the transition.

 

[Tomcost]

What are you talking about? The Hochlander heads the Office of the Auditors General. He does spy stuff too, sure, but they also do internal auditing.

In fact, they've been around since turn 25 (thanks to Pickle for the summary post, it's so much easier to find things that way):
-EIC: Found an internal investigation division, to investigate possible misconduct.

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So we've got internal investigations to make sure people don't do naughty things like consorting with enemies of the Empire and to catch enemy agents inserted in the EIC, and compared to that auditing just doesn't seem very important? Like, it's just money, I don't actually care if people embezzle.

(And on a meta note, I don't think there will be any support for another "eat your vegetables" action for a while.)

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Hmmm...

Then this action seems redundant? What is different between both? That one is more money focused then?

 

[Tobtorp]

Then this action seems redundant? What is different between both? That one is more money focused then?

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audits are specifically for the money side of the business. a internal conduct division might not catch bribes, minor corruption or funneling of money. a audit division will.

 

[BurnNote]

What about something like
[ ] EIC: Have the EIC watch for any concerning trading patterns as outlined in The Neglected Front: Economic Warfare against the Vampiric Bloodlines

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I like the idea in principle, but I'm not sure how applicable it is to vampires in particular, given that Sylvania has been getting stomped for years now, and Rosi is already applying the principles there. She wrote the book on it, of course.
And I do mean I'm not sure: It might work. I don't know if it applies to hidden Lamians, or generally vampires keeping greater secrecy, who aren't in long-held "vampire" territories. Probably have to check with Boney, or try it and find out.

But I do really think you've got a good idea. And I think it suggests an intersting Eike action: Try to adapt the work there to other areas, like malign cults (which is not just chaos). That fits Eike's existing skills, and it also is something that fits her likely future role as handler of the EIC (and maybe the Grey's trading specialist in general).

I did not; I didn't count that as expanding our espionage capability because it just enhances our ability to avoid other folks spying on us rather than improving our own ability to do spy shit.

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I'd say that being able to safely get the information out is a pretty important factor, but I acknowledge that the effects (broad familiarity with ciphers, better protection of sources/operations) are probably pretty minor on the offense.

 

[Alratan]

Some of them have. At the moment a majority, but it's not impossible that trying to quickly transition to Entrepôt would drive some houses to the isolationists.

Navigating Eonir politics would be a rather crucial part of the transition.

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Navigating it, yes, but the Queen is already doing that. Receiving Druichi and shortly Asur diplomats is part of that, as it opening up of trade to the significant degree that's being done already. Importing dwarf steel Kislevite charcoal are both significant steps to integrate their economy with the wider Old World, as it the rumoured imports of stone. Importantly, both will need to be paid for, and if the money isn't going to be made by exploting their position as a node in the wider trade networks, it will have to be done by diverting production of goods otherwise destined for internal consumption to international trade.

Exploiting a RoW causeway to become a trans-shipment hub would, in some ways, be less of an economic disruption than changing domestic patterns of production and consumption and becoming an exporter.

I suspect any compromise would result in the construction of warehouses/officers outside the city walls so that Lore Linethel itself was unchanged and goods they didn't want to compete with local production never entered the city itself.

The other important factor I see is that the wealth that opening up trade would bring would make being an isolationist increasingly unattractive. Essentially the Houses that opposed it could find themselves outcompeted.

 

[consequences]

I would actually be more inclined to use the EIC for infiltration as a personal action with Mathilde acting as the tip of the spear with all her obscene advantages. But that idea is probably never going to come out on top of the AP Wars.

As it stands, as long as I see cool economic shit, I'll probably vote for that first barring reactive emergency usage like the skull river ambush and Alberich.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Realistically, because we 'ignored their authority' I. nuln, the type of action the Verenans would want as a peace token is a loud nod to their authority. Not an over escalation like 'get rid of the spiders and hire our people.'

They would want a very fancy shine in the library with a bullshit plake saying it's a gift to the Verenans of Nuln, or giving a good management role too on of their people, or taking a knights of the scroll from Nuln as head of security etc etc.

Maybe not any of those, but that level of peace offering. A public 'ya sorry, I do respect you, my bad'

Even if we aren't actually sorry, they would want us to look sorry.

 

[mathymancer]

What about something like
[ ] EIC: Have the EIC watch for any concerning trading patterns as outlined in The Neglected Front: Economic Warfare against the Vampiric Bloodlines

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We kind of did that when it was more relevant:

-[*] EIC: Lend the services of the Hochlander, and the EIC's intelligence and contacts, to Roswita to help track down the Talabeclanders buying peat from the vampires.

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Turns out the Templars had that mostly covered, though the Hochlander did walk away from it with some Witch Hunter contacts:

The Hochlander's contribution to the project was minimal, though if his reports are accurate you can't find fault with his attempt, it was simply a matter of the Witch Hunters having both more manpower and a larger information network in the form of the Church of Sigmar. But he did manage to keep up with the investigation and give every appearance of helpful cooperation, as well as aiding the Witch Hunters with transportation upon EIC wagons and boats, and has come away from the project with a significant list of contacts within the Templars of Sigmar. Which is the sort of thing that might come in very handy in the future, even if you're not their biggest fan.

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Since then Sylvania got mostly pacificed and a lot of traders got put on pyres, so I think we can leave this in Rosie's capable hands.

I think we might have a chance of doing something similar with House Akkerman (something like "find out who in the Empire dealt with House Akkerman and investigate anything that seems suspicious, passing along any incriminating information to the authorities") and maybe the Templar connections the Hochlander made will come in handy there, but we should probably take the Skull River Ambush social first to see what the current state of the investigation is, and the thread doesn't seem interested in doing that.

 

[DragonParadox]

We have tensions with one group of a very spread out cult. We are far from the point of no return, let alone rivals.

Like, your argument is us picking a fight because we think it's already too late to smooths things without giving up a leg. So might as well go whole hog.

We do t know how big it is, but I doubt it's even close to that bad yet, maybe if we let it simmer or do more stuff to piss them off.

But we are not there yet.

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But I am not arguing that we declare war, I am arguing that we do aboslutely nothing with regards to the cult itself and when speaking to its rivals go 'So how about those Verenans thinking they get to decide where other people's books go? Assholes right?'

 

[Belkar]

We shouldnt overreact just because someone somewhere got a little upset with what were doing. Trying to please everyone will get us nowhere. Im not advovating making enemies left right and center, but if we try to appease everyone who gets annoyed with us well do much of that and nothing much constructive.
Well just have to accept that by simply being active at the level of decisionmaking were at well make enemies and or annoy people. The question we have to ask ourselves should always be is this course of action worth making enemies over and if yes, see it through. If not, we should negotiate a settlement before doing it or abstain from the beginning.
By supporting the K8P expedition we probably annoyed some dwarves whod rather those dwarves stay and bolster their hold instead of gallivanting off and dying or get stuck in an endless battle to hold on to some mountains far away from them. At the time we werent important enough to really get targeted for that.
By supporting Middenland and the eonir, we annoy/make enemies of Nordland. By supporting the dwarves and their Canal, we annoy/make enemies of Marienburg(ers).
Its just that were active at a high enough level of competing interests that simply by being successful we step on the toes of someone whod rather his competition not be so. Thats not easily appeased and in my opinion we shouldnt try most of those times. To use a more modern parlance "Haters gonna hate"

 

[Agent X20]

"The Weavers Guilds of the Karaz Ankor have released a united statement condemning the use of spider-silk, saying it is the domain of Elves and Goblins," she says flatly.

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Would raw We silk be a useful trade good for diplomacy?

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

But I am not arguing that we declare war, I am arguing that we do aboslutely nothing with regards to the cult itself and when speaking to its rivals go 'So how about those Verenans thinking they get to decide where other people's books go? Assholes right?'

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… how is that not starting a political fight?

That is the definition of starting a political fight.

That's bumping into a cript in the prison cafeteria and getting there food on them, and instead of doing something to show your sorry you go up the the bloods in the yard and go 'so peps, fuck those guys, right?'

 

[Gavin Prince]

Would raw We silk be a useful trade good for diplomacy?

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Per Boney:

Silks are in the earlier category of foreign materials, there'd be some demand for it at first simply because it's new, but absolutely no guarantee they'll still want any once the novelty wears off.

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So it's more something we could hand out as gifts to butter up specific individuals, rather than an ongoing stable market. We could bring in a single caravan and leverage novelty into a one-off cash windfall. But if that's something we want, the ithilmar trade option is going to be more efficient.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

We shouldnt overreact just because someone somewhere got a little upset with what were doing. Trying to please everyone will get us nowhere. Im not advovating making enemies left right and center, but if we try to appease everyone who gets annoyed with us well do much of that and nothing much constructive.
Well just have to accept that by simply being active at the level of decisionmaking were at well make enemies and or annoy people. The question we have to ask ourselves should always be is this course of action worth making enemies over and if yes, see it through. If not, we should negotiate a settlement before doing it or abstain from the beginning.
By supporting the K8P expedition we probably annoyed some dwarves whod rather those dwarves stay and bolster their hold instead of gallivanting off and dying or get stuck in an endless battle to hold on to some mountains far away from them. At the time we werent important enough to really get targeted for that.
By supporting Middenland and the eonir, we annoy/make enemies of Nordland. By supporting the dwarves and their Canal, we annoy/make enemies of Marienburg(ers).
Its just that were active at a high enough level of competing interests that simply by being successful we step on the toes of someone whod rather his competition not be so. Thats not easily appeased and in my opinion we shouldnt try most of those times. To use a more modern parlance "Haters gonna hate"

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I'm not really talking about jumping to please everyone, I'm talking about making sure we don't get into shit with the one group that would be 'the worst' people to have beef with when it comes to the goals of the library.

And to not cossy up to their rivals after stepping I. Their toes.

Like, I do think it needs to be clear, as far as the culture, and period, and beliefs of the empire is concerned: we're the ones that pull a dick more. For good reasons, yes.

But they actually did have authority (cultural, political and religious) in this area that we ignored.

To outside observers, we are not necessarily coming off as the good guys (to nerds, obviously anyone that cares about canons more doesn't care.)

Not really inappropriate appeasement when we did do a cultural faux pas.

 

[Agent X20]

So it's more something we could hand out as gifts to butter up specific individuals, rather than an ongoing stable market. We could bring in a single caravan and leverage novelty into a one-off cash windfall. But if that's something we want, the ithilmar trade option is going to be more efficient.

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I was thinking that the Elves could trade processed silk back to the Empire to offset the worries over a trade deficit and improve relations between the two

 

[Redshirt Army]

Thank you for this information.

I will never watch that show.

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For what it's worth, as someone who hates most "cringe comedies" with a passion, I'd suggest you give Bocchi a try sometime - the main thing making the difference for me is that the whole situation is framed as one where you're deeply sympathetic to Bocchi's struggles instead of her just being a punching bag for comedy.

As for the current topic: I think people are having a bit of a failure of imagination if they're seeing this as a binary "appease Cult of Verena y/n?" situation.

The Nuln Temple of Verena is influential but hardly speaks for the religion across the entire Empire. If we seek closer ties to a different temple of Verena, which will likely be much easier than trying to directly make up for the situation in Nuln, it will still blunt the worst of the accusations against us just as well - the other Temples will see that we're someone who can be negotiated with, it'll take some of the wind out of the "Ranaldian coming to steal all our books" accusations, and it'll limit what the Nuln temple can do against us without risking an internal conflict in their cult.

 

[DragonParadox]

I'm not really talking about jumping to please everyone, I'm talking about making sure we don't get into shit with the one group that would be 'the worst' people to have beef with when it comes to the goals of the library.

And to not cossy up to their rivals after stepping I. Their toes.

Like, I do think it needs to be clear, as far as the culture, and period, and beliefs of the empire is concerned: we're the ones that pull a dick more. For good reasons, yes.

But they actually did have authority (cultural, political and religious) in this area that we ignored.

To outside observers, we are not necessarily coming off as the good guys (to nerds, obviously anyone that cares about canons more doesn't care.)

Not really inappropriate appeasement when we did do a cultural faux pas.

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They most certainly did not have the authority, authority is a function of power, if they had that they could have stopped us or at the very least hindered us. What they did have is the expectation that we would deal with them, said expectation was based on faulty cultural premises:

1. Firstly that we had any need of them. Between the funds of a dwarf Karak and the immortal spider hive we certainly did not.
2. Secondly that we in any way fell under their religious authority We do not, I do not think there even is a temple of Verena in K8P and in many ways people
3. Thirdly that the Elector Count who actually lives in the empire and who which one and two actually do apply would care. He does, but not as much as he does for new canons.

 

[Gavin Prince]

I was thinking that the Elves could trade processed silk back to the Empire to offset the worries over a trade deficit and improve relations between the two

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Possibly. We did pull out every book the Eonir have on how to weave silk and dumped them onto Caravallo's desk and there's been no progress from it.

I think finding markets for products the Eonir are already producing is a better avenue than trying to set up new product lines, particularly when it would come at the expense of K8P who are hoping to corner the market themselves. But silk demand in the Empire is indeed very high and neither of K8Ps stewards have impressed when it comes to the We-silk.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

They most certainly did not have the authority, authority is a function of power, if they had that they could have stopped us or at the very least hindered us. What they did have is the expectation that we would deal with them, said expectation was based on faulty cultural premises:

1. Firstly that we had any need of them. Between the funds of a dwarf Karak and the immortal spider hive we certainly did not.
2. Secondly that we in any way fell under their religious authority We do not, I do not think there even is a temple of Verena in K8P and in many ways people
3. Thirdly that the Elector Count who actually lives in the empire and who which one and two actually do apply would care. He does, but not as much as he does for new canons.

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What? People with authority can be overridden by people with more authority (EC) while still being seen as an authority, your argument…

….. I'm going to stop. I think your whole argument is fundamentally taking things to extremes that they aren't at or need to be.

We don't need to cosy up to the cult's rivalries, because we ant at a point of no return, but doing to would bring us to that point.

And any appeasement, would probably be worth it, because it's probably not that bad yet, and because this is the one group not worth having a fight with when it comes to our goals.

There is very little benefit to being rivals, unlikely to be much pain in Repairing any tensions, and a lot of benefit to a good relationship.

This whole quest has shown that good relations are the best way forward. Forgeting that just because our actions (that we know was going to go over someone's head when reading back over the arguments about it.) are what caused the tension. (If we were completely innocent I might have a different view. But we did step on toes)

Obviously I'm going to read your reply, not going to be that asshole that says they're going to stop but tries to have the last word, you get the last word. But I'm not going to keep going.

 

[Retrueno]

Personally I don't like how the cult of Verena reacted, it felt very arrogant to me. As if we needed their approval to copy someone else library. Like, if we were to copy the University of Atdolf would we also need to get their approval? And what about other libraries?

That said I think we should try to get in their good graces because it's extremely likely they have tons of rare books we won't be able to get otherwise.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Personally I don't like how the cult of Verena reacted, it felt very arrogant to me. As if we needed their approval to copy someone else library. Like, if we were to copy the University of Atdolf would we also need to get their approval? And what about other libraries?

That said I think we should try to get in their good graces because it's extremely likely they have tons of rare books we won't be able to get otherwise.

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I mean, yeah, they're gatekeeping and stuff—but it's kinda their entire religion? And we kinda ignored them in favour of a secular authority, and in doing so publicly embarrassed them?

Now if we had touched base with them beforehand, and they tried to screw with us, then yeah, sure, screw them. But we didn't even give them the chance to prove themselves one way or another. We just dropped a ton of dwarves into their city, said "books please" and then drove off before they even knew we were there.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Personally I don't like how the cult of Verena reacted, it felt very arrogant to me. As if we needed their approval to copy someone else library. Like, it we were to copy the University of Atdolf would we also need to get their approval? And ehat about other libraries?

That said I think we should try to get in their good graces because it's extremely likely they have tons of rare books we won't be able to get otherwise.

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Oh it's absolutely arrogant. But it's not untrue at the same time.

Like… using a personal example: this isn't an Irish Catholic brotherhood throwing a fit in The 2020s Ireland. We're most people will roll their eyes or even feel happy that these religious trust funds are losing even more power.

This is a Brotherhood throwing a fit in 1920-1990s Ireland.

The Cult of Verena are a very respected group, and people do think they have authority were they say they do. (Obviously not compared to an elector count, but they do have authority.)

And people, from noble to commoner, mostly don't like people challenging that authority. Challenging the cults in their fields is not something that makes you a lot of friends.

So ya, it's arrogant, but it's based on the fact the society general takes their side or at lest does something in compensation for them when they do throw fits.

 

[Tomcost]

Now it is a bit late but... how about a social action about actually using the library? Enter as ourselves or disguised, and see how the spooder frends help us to get a good read.

 

[Tasoli]

Now if we had touched base with them beforehand,

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Why would we? I understand that they would be pissed if we copied their library without their agreement (which we would have if they had any) but they are also pissed that we copied other libraries. To me, that sounds like they had a protection racket going on and pissed that we blew that.