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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
In terms of preserving knowledge there really is no question, you spread it since the more instances it exists in the less likely it is to be lost, not in terms of preserving power over knowledge and the power of the cult... ;)
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Certain knowledge, if spread, creates a violent reaction that a given Verenan organization might not be able to withstand. Other knowledge is dangerous if not learned with a foundation of previous knowledge first. And a lot of ancient knowledge has been lost even though it was widespread before, thus necessitating that the knowledge keepers also have temporal power and the ability to perpetuate themselves as an organization. And all that is before one gets into the domain of law and justice and starts questioning whether knowledge, being so important and valuable, should be kept out of the hands of the unjust, who seek to use its power for crime and evil.

I understand the sympathies for one branch of Verenan thought over the other, but it is not a completely simple and clear cut question.
 
DragonParadox said:
In terms of preserving knowledge there really is no question, you spread it since the more instances it exists in the less likely it is to be lost, not in terms of preserving power over knowledge and the power of the cult... ;)
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That's the thing: the actual scripture in Tome of Salvation says "safeguard knowledge", meaning also protect it from the hands of those who would misuse it. Boney has said before that Verena's Cult would in fact preserve instead of burning even the most forbidden books out there because of this, even the ones that drive people mad or which are super heretical. And that's just magical stuff! Books on entirely mundane stuff such as medicine, war and political theory can be plenty dangerous on their own, and in the Old World in particular you would want to limit just how many people have access to them lest you get some unpleasant cultists or whatnot.

So Verenans in the abstract general do in fact have a leg to stand on regarding keeping knowledge secret and generally protected. It just happens to be that this also serves their purposes politically.

IMO the Nuln Verenans though have little justification here to be mad - if it was their own books they'd be perfectly within their rights to be mad, but they're not the ones who decide what happens to purely secular libraries.
 
Parabola said:
I'll also note that those who can cast from the Lore of Verena, while rare, are extremely good at sussing out the truth. Due to Verena's focus on truth and law, such divine spellcasters are probably better than the average Hysh user at being magical detectives. So unlike with the Cult of Karnos and Alric (who was acting as an individual at the time), we would be sending our spies to a Cult that is not only touchy about its knowledge but also capable of figuring out if someone is trying to get a look at that knowledge without their say-so.
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Well, I feel like the obvious answer to this is that we'd be tailoring the approach to the target. The Hochlander felt the odds for a direct insertion in the Cult of Karnos was good so he went for it. If we feel the odds are not as favorable for a Verenan operation other options could be pursued.

If the idea is that every option would fail, I basically just don't buy that. It doesn't fit the world as presented if the Verenan's are just no-selling everything as a army of magical Sherlock Holmes's.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
Well, I feel like the obvious answer to this is that we'd be tailoring the approach to the target. The Hochlander felt the odds for a direct insertion in the Cult of Karnos was good so he went for it. If we feel the odds are not as favorable for a Verenan operation other options could be pursued.

If the idea is that every option would fail, I basically just don't buy that. It doesn't fit the world as presented if the Verenan's are just no-selling everything as a army of magical Sherlock Holmes's.
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I'm not saying we couldn't make it work or get past the risks, I'm saying it's not worth the reward of getting information on them. What we really want is their favor, and we can probably get it in the conventional way of showing up and helping out or offering political support of one kind or another. No spying necessary.
 
Morrites get mad if you treat dead bodies improperly even if said bodies are definitely not their own. They probably even dislike it a lot if you handle bodies properly but ignore them and their expertise even though they are present and available. They would get right mad about a secular funeral house opening next door.
 
Parabola said:
I'm not saying we couldn't make it work or get past the risks, I'm saying it's not worth the reward of getting information on them. What we really want is their favor, and we can probably get it in the conventional way of showing up and helping out or offering political support of one kind or another. No spying necessary.
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If feel like this is an overly narrow view. First you need to take into account whether EIC actions could even generate their favor so as to compare like to like. Personally I felt the ideas suggested in that vein were quite a reach. So any favor generating idea is more likely to require a full AP. Secondly, getting information on the Cult would make it a lot easier to tailor an approach towards a specific segment that would be favorable. That's kind of the whole point of getting information, it lets you achieve more with less effort as opposed to blind firing.
 
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Thomasfoolery said:
Well, I feel like the obvious answer to this is that we'd be tailoring the approach to the target. The Hochlander felt the odds for a direct insertion in the Cult of Karnos was good so he went for it. If we feel the odds are not as favorable for a Verenan operation other options could be pursued.

If the idea is that every option would fail, I basically just don't buy that. It doesn't fit the world as presented if the Verenan's are just no-selling everything as a army of magical Sherlock Holmes's.
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there is also, you know, the fact that: 'a grey magister is collecting basic and largely unimportant information about me and my general goings on' should, at all times, be considered to be the case if you are of any import whatsoever.

them proving it, changes sweet F A. so long as we are only collecting information merchants would get anyway and don't dedicate time to get their actual secrets, it really isn't likely matter.
 
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If you squint and look at those practices there really isnt much difference between a cult and a protection racket. Aside a little divine intervention.
You want to do business in my domain? You better pay your dues!
 
Rafin said:
Certain knowledge, if spread, creates a violent reaction that a given Verenan organization might not be able to withstand. Other knowledge is dangerous if not learned with a foundation of previous knowledge first. And a lot of ancient knowledge has been lost even though it was widespread before, thus necessitating that the knowledge keepers also have temporal power and the ability to perpetuate themselves as an organization. And all that is before one gets into the domain of law and justice and starts questioning whether knowledge, being so important and valuable, should be kept out of the hands of the unjust, who seek to use its power for crime and evil.

I understand the sympathies for one branch of Verenan thought over the other, but it is not a completely simple and clear cut question.
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Yeah I'm sure the fact that one of the sides is inherently more advantageous for the organization plays no part of it, in other news knights to only collect taxes as part of a deep moral obligation to protect the common man, any enriching of their own pokers is incidental and those gold platters and marble frescoes are a defensive necessity :V

There is such a thing as being too charitable of a perspective and 'this powerful institution is supossedly only hoarding the source of its power for our own good' is pretty much the definition.

Parabola said:
That's the thing: the actual scripture in Tome of Salvation says "safeguard knowledge", meaning also protect it from the hands of those who would misuse it. Boney has said before that Verena's Cult would in fact preserve instead of burning even the most forbidden books out there because of this, even the ones that drive people mad or which are super heretical. And that's just magical stuff! Books on entirely mundane stuff such as medicine, war and political theory can be plenty dangerous on their own, and in the Old World in particular you would want to limit just how many people have access to them lest you get some unpleasant cultists or whatnot.

So Verenans in the abstract general do in fact have a leg to stand on regarding keeping knowledge secret and generally protected. It just happens to be that this also serves their purposes politically.

IMO the Nuln Verenans though have little justification here to be mad - if it was their own books they'd be perfectly within their rights to be mad, but they're not the ones who decide what happens to purely secular libraries.
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One can make that argument for books on magic, it is a lot harder to swallow mundane subjects. I mean think about it 'political science'. How would those be dangerous other than 'the peasants might get ideas above their station'?
 
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Belkar said:
If you squint and look at those practices there really isnt much difference between a cult and a protection racket. Aside a little divine intervention.
You want to do business in my domain? You better pay your dues!
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Yes…

That's how it works. You make the right donations and sacrifices and the god responsible for that sphere of existence looks favourably on your endeavours, and if you don't they screw you over. That's why classical polytheism which Warhammer is very roughly modelled on looks like.

Worse, because the Cults have their own state sanctioned private armies and feel that it's legitimate to send them to murder you if you disrespect them for heresy
 
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Rafin said:
Morrites get mad if you treat dead bodies improperly even if said bodies are definitely not their own. They probably even dislike it a lot if you handle bodies properly but ignore them and their expertise even though they are present and available. They would get right mad about a secular funeral house opening next door.
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Which would be self-serving. If the bodies do not rise and the dead find their way where they aught (incidentally I do not think a secular funeral; house could do that, but assuming they could) the only reason to be up in arms about it is because they are stealing the Morrites' business. But really you do not have to go to Mor, Sigmar is a war god and has a function in imperial society, Ulric is also a war god and serves a similar one, their cults are at each others' guts because they are in competition. It is self-serving and hypocritical when they do it and it is self-serving and hypocritical when the Verenans object to our library.
 
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Thomasfoolery said:
If feel like this is an overly narrow view. First you need to take into account whether EIC actions could even generate their favor so as to compare like to like. Personally I felt the ideas suggested in that vein were quite a reach. So any favor generating idea is more likely to require a full AP. Secondly, getting information on the Cult would make it a lot easier to tailor an approach towards a specific segment that would be favorable. That's kind of the whole point of getting information, it let's you achieve more with less effort as opposed to blind firing.
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You misunderstand: I don't have any illusions of us gaining the favor of Verenans with an EIC action, I just think our EIC actions are better spent focusing on the Laurelorn trade options.

But it's true that if we phrase it properly I and many others would find it more palatable. If it's allowed to be something like 'dont actually infiltrate the Cult, just get a sense of the outwardly visible political positions and how the many parts of the cult relate to one another', I'd be more than fine with that (though I'd still prefer doing the Schadensumpf action first).
 
Entirely as an exercise in wording and not in ethics, if I was tasked to "safeguard knowledge" I would consider spreading it to be antithetical to that. Now, taken in context that Verena is also the goddess of justice I think the Lorekeepers have the right of it, but I definitely see how schisms could be formed over that specific wording.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Which would be self-serving. If the bodies do not rise and the dead find their way where they aught (incidentally I do not think a secular funeral; house could do that, but assuming they could) the only reason to be up in arms about it is because they are stealing the Morrites' business. But really you do not have to go to Mor, Sugmar is a war god and has a function in imperial society, Ulric is also a war god and serves a similar one, their cults are at each others' guts because they are in competition. It is self-serving and hypocritical when they do it and it is self-serving and hypocritical when the Verenans object to our library.
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sure.

does that matter though? they are still a recognised cult. they have authority. irrelevant of whether they should or not. and that authority makes them actively a pain if we go out of our way to antagonise them. there is no benefit i can see for antagonising them, and many costs.

appeasement or avoidance. give the only benefits I can see*. appeasment does not mean necessarily mean apologising for our faux pas**. we don't know enough about the cult to say if that is necessary. but it does include making sure to actually talk to them in future when we are within their remit.


*benefits being, for appeasement: we get the help of what are considered largely the authority on books in the empire, which will likely make rep things related to our library easier by association, and you know, possible access to the library in altdorf. and for Avoidance, we don't have to deal with the books nerds as much. because we will still likely have to deal with them, unless we have decided we are done with important libraries in the empire.
**and it was one, there is no real denying that, we embarassed them by going over their heads in their culturally accepted and respected remit.
 
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Parabola said:
You misunderstand: I don't have any illusions of us gaining the favor of Verenans with an EIC action, I just think our EIC actions are better spent focusing on the Laurelorn trade options.
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Ah, gotcha. Personally I don't care at all about the institutional tension and don't think we need to do anything about it either way, so was just discussing the idea in the abstract. I also agree the fog path is a much more valuable action to pursue first.

Parabola said:
But it's true that if we phrase it properly I and many others would find it more palatable. If it's allowed to be something like 'dont actually infiltrate the Cult, just get a sense of the outwardly visible political positions and how the many parts of the cult relate to one another', I'd be more than fine with that (though I'd still prefer doing the Schadensumpf action first).
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That said, I don't think micromanaging like this if/when we do actually pursue a spying action is the way to go. Mathilde is a very accomplished expert, and we've got the Hochlander fully dialed in to the EIC capabilities as well. I think it would be better to leave it to them to gauge the risk/ reward levels of what our spies are capable of and let them pursue the appropriate course of action.
 
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Feim said:
sure.

does that matter though? they are still a recognised cult. they have authority. irrelevant of whether they should or not. and that authority makes them actively a pain if we go out of our way to antagonise them. there is no benefit i can see for antagonising them, and many costs.

appeasement or avoidance. give the only benefits I can see. appeasment does not mean necessarily mean apologising for our faux pas*. we don't know enough about the cult to say if that is necessary. but it does include making sure to actually talk to them in future when we are within their remit.


*and it was one, there is no real denying that, we embarassed them by going over their in their culturally accepted remit.
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It does insofar as one cares. ironically, about justice. If we actually wronged them then we owe them restitution. If on the other hand this is the book protection racket then this is all quid pro quo.
 
Rafin said:
Morrites get mad if you treat dead bodies improperly even if said bodies are definitely not their own. They probably even dislike it a lot if you handle bodies properly but ignore them and their expertise even though they are present and available. They would get right mad about a secular funeral house opening next door.
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Well, given that the souls of those not interred with the rites of some sort of death god get an express ticket to the merciless tumult of the aether, their getting mad makes sense. I for one would prefer a nice long dream nap for an afterlife instead of getting sliced up like a pizza for daemon snacks.

The Nuln Verenans don't even have books though, so I don't care one whiff about their irritation. The ones with libraries we should definitely work for friendly relations though, I bet they'd love to mock the bookless ones over fine food and drink.
 
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DragonParadox said:
It does insofar as one cares. ironically, about justice. If we actually wronged them then we owe them restitution. If on the other hand this is the book protection racket then this is all quid pro quo.
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okay. as you seem to fundamentally disagree with how cults tend to work, just in general. the answer is probably the second of those one for you then, until we kill or steal from one of them.

so, avoidance then. just don't interact with them.

antagonising though, as you suggested, is very different. bad mouthing a cult of the widely accepted and fairly respected goddess of libraries is not without consequences. and i am not even talking anythign mystical. the verenans just offcially saying our library is bad will fuck up our rep that we are trying trying to build for it.


also, we seem to be arguing from fundamentally incompatible worldviews by the looks. I am only arguing practicality. I care not a whit for the moral or justness of it. only the practical. I do not care if they are running a protection racket, they could be sacrificing criminals and so long as the current facts remain true i would not care. they can make problems for us that only a slight swallowing of pride will remove. and largely arn't an issue as far as the morals and expectations of the world is concerned
 
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Feim said:
okay. as you seem to fundamentally disagree with how cults tend to work, just in general. the answer is probably the second of those one for you then, until we kill or steal from one of them.

so, avoidance then. just don't interact with them.

antagonising though, as you suggested, is very different. bad mouthing a cult of the widely accepted and fairly respected goddess of libraries is not without consequences. and i am not even talking anythign mystical. the verenans just offcially saying our library is bad will fuck up our rep that we are trying.
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I did not suggest antagonizing them though, I suggested leaving the rivalry be at least until we are out of low hanging fruit and in the meantime, behind closed doors, use that for whatever it is worth to get close to others who might not like their hegemony in the library space.
 
I mean.. does it cost us anything to just go there and apologize?

(and maybe stealthily send some prayers to Verena to see what she thinks^^)
 
Feim said:
does that matter though? they are still a recognised cult. they have authority. irrelevant of whether they should or not. and that authority makes them actively a pain if we go out of our way to antagonise them. there is no benefit i can see for antagonising them, and many costs.
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They don't. The authority rests in the Elector Count.

What they do have is a lot of influence but it remains to be seen if they can bring it to bear.
 
DragonParadox said:
I did not suggest antagonizing them though, I suggested leaving the rivalry be at least until we are out of low hanging fruit and in the meantime, behind closed doors, use that for whatever it is worth to get close to others who might not like their hegemony in the library space.
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that is antagonising. just because it starts behind closed doors does not mean it will stay there. like with most things you don't want getting out, including someone else you don't have leverage over will make it quite likely to get out.

especially with the kinds of people that have books we can't get elsewhere, those are rich people. their walls have ears, and they are followed by guards constantly. and we are not being brought into their sanctuaries where those ears are removed and those guards are kept back.

We are a gray wizard, rich land owners are averse to our very presence on principle
 
Zero Gravitas said:
They don't. The authority rests in the Elector Count.

What they do have is a lot of influence but it remains to be seen if they can bring it to bear.
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I think that's very arguable, and is something that's an active point of contention between the Cults and the aristocracy. The Cults claim, I think broad authority over matters related to their Gods' portfolio, and they have armies to back up those claims.

That's why there are places where the Cult or Verena is the legal system, superior to or just replacing anything the local nobility want.

The Empire is very multi-polar, with significant centres of theocratic power and authority. It's nothing like a modern state where the concept of a monopoly of force exists.
 
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Feim said:
that is antagonising. just because it starts behind closed doors does not mean it will stay there. like with most things you don't want getting out, including someone else you don't have leverage over will make it quite likely to get out.

especially with the kinds of people that have books we can't get elsewhere, those are rich people. their walls have ears, and they are followed by guards constantly. and we are not being brought into their sanctuaries where those ears are removed and those guards are kept back.

We are a gray wizard, rich land owners are averse to our very presence on principle
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I think you are blowing this out of proportion not least because many low level rivalries exist in the Empire. Do you really think for instance the Elementalists do not go looking for people who dislike the Colleges, that priestesses of Myrmidia do not seek out those nobles who are not that into Sigmar?
 
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