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And it's an abstraction in the first place. Don't poke it too hard, it's simplifed for quest purposes, and that's a good thing.

We can only use so many items at the same time. We're already running into that limit, so having the best items possible is important.
We could hang it up on our mantle piece, give it to someone like an apprentice(we're probably gonna get one inside fifteen to twenty turns), or someone else we like who we figure needs it like the captain of the Deathwatch.

Well, except we can skip right ahead to the part where we've got the goodest sword, and not spend another good sword's worth of favors on something we plan to part with in the future. It doesn't make economic sense.

It's the same as voting to get the maximum oversword, basically, except we don't even get a maximum oversword out of it.
You'd get the maximum oversword out of the second lot. But functionally there is no difference because if we drop fifteen on it, its going to be years and the scale involved basically invalidates all of the stuff we might desire to spend it on that we can see right now.
Why plan around wasteful obsolescence when we don't have to? Like why waste those favors when we don't have to? That's still 10-15 points we didn't need to spend if we had just settled for spending 5 more in the first place for something we would have gotten anyways. There will never be a time where favors aren't useful. The only possible justification for your argument is that those 5 favors are absolutely critical in the immediate, or that those 15 favors are worthless because we'll have so many. Those both seem erroneous.
The point of my argument and this is for @SuperSonicSound as well is that because we can get a really killy sword right now we'll have it for so long the situation and thus the various factors feeding our decision will change. If we get a sword over fifteen right now we're not going to get rid of it for years if at all because it is That Good just from looking at the Belt. There will be a massive depression in interest in getting any kind of improvement regardless of if it is fifteen or twenty or twenty five.

The difference there is not one, in my mind, of quantity but the fact that when we hit the twenty-twenty five region we're buying things that will have qualities that will literally blow our minds more than the Belt did and they are effectively going to pay for themselves with how amazing they are to such a degree, there will be such a large ROI that it will feel like they were worth more than that. That's my opinion on how it would work out and why I think that trying to relate the values of a fifteen sword and a twenty sword and a twenty five sword is exceptionally tricky to just impossible.

We could if we say have twenty five points five or six or seven years down the line spend it on something else, in theory. But from what we've seen making commissions is really the only thing that costs that much.

To return to my original point with the Lab and the Weapon not functionally being different, the point I was making is that I think it is incorrect to suppose that we can spend it in a trickle. Here's why: if we spend fifteen on a Really Good Lab, it will be a Really Good Lab in all respects. Every part of it will be affected and every part of it will be brought up to some astounding level of bling shiny. Who can work on that to improve it? Certainly not the efforts of a group of skilled dwarf masons like we might get with five, since their level of improvement was levied already and it has superseeded their skill. So we'd need to, in my mind, save up to buy the attention of a truly stupendous mason. See where I'm going? If Boney is categorizing things as ten being "the limit of normal craft", fifteen being "Exceptional super famous master smith craft" to twenty five being "really this is the best you can physically get period" then that points out that you need greater and greater masters to exceed the work of the previous masters.
 
Inserted tally

Edit: Figured I should post a Tally since BoneyM is probably going to wake up and call the vote soon.
Adhoc vote count started by Nix's Warden on Sep 29, 2019 at 11:38 PM, finished with 1209 posts and 217 votes.
 
Y'know, I think the "best weapon possible in this age" is actually a rather attractive idea. Because maybe this Kragg, who was part of the greatest reconquest for the dwarfs in the age, will find that his very best work isn't actually so far off from the great works of the past. And I like that idea. I just wanna make Kragg smile.

On a completely different note, I like how I can just keep typing, safe in the knowledge that there's no way I'll double post. Very handy.
 
We could hang it up on our mantle piece, give it to someone like an apprentice(we're probably gonna get one inside fifteen to twenty turns), or someone else we like who we figure needs it like the captain of the Deathwatch.


You'd get the maximum oversword out of the second lot. But functionally there is no difference because if we drop fifteen on it, its going to be years and the scale involved basically invalidates all of the stuff we might desire to spend it on that we can see right now.

The point of my argument and this is for @SuperSonicSound as well is that because we can get a really killy sword right now we'll have it for so long the situation and thus the various factors feeding our decision will change. If we get a sword over fifteen right now we're not going to get rid of it for years if at all because it is That Good just from looking at the Belt. There will be a massive depression in interest in getting any kind of improvement regardless of if it is fifteen or twenty or twenty five.

The difference there is not one, in my mind, of quantity but the fact that when we hit the twenty-twenty five region we're buying things that will have qualities that will literally blow our minds more than the Belt did and they are effectively going to pay for themselves with how amazing they are to such a degree, there will be such a large ROI that it will feel like they were worth more than that. That's my opinion on how it would work out and why I think that trying to relate the values of a fifteen sword and a twenty sword and a twenty five sword is exceptionally tricky to just impossible.

We could if we say have twenty five points five or six or seven years down the line spend it on something else, in theory. But from what we've seen making commissions is really the only thing that costs that much.

To return to my original point with the Lab and the Weapon not functionally being different, the point I was making is that I think it is incorrect to suppose that we can spend it in a trickle. Here's why: if we spend fifteen on a Really Good Lab, it will be a Really Good Lab in all respects. Every part of it will be affected and every part of it will be brought up to some astounding level of bling shiny. Who can work on that to improve it? Certainly not the efforts of a group of skilled dwarf masons like we might get with five, since their level of improvement was levied already and it has superseeded their skill. So we'd need to, in my mind, save up to buy the attention of a truly stupendous mason. See where I'm going? If Boney is categorizing things as ten being "the limit of normal craft", fifteen being "Exceptional super famous master smith craft" to twenty five being "really this is the best you can physically get period" then that points out that you need greater and greater masters to exceed the work of the previous masters.
I don't think a lab would work on the same scale of favors as a weapon would, though. And if it does, I really don't think we actually need a lab that is one step below something made by a god.
 
I don't think a lab would work on the same scale of favors as a weapon would, though. And if it does, I really don't think we actually need a lab that is one step below something made by a god.
Now, thats true, but I should also point out we don't really need a weapon thats one step below something made by a god, but that doesn't mean we won't vote for one anyway.
 
@BungieONI

To my mind your ideas are a good reason to hold off on spending any favour on the lab for now to get the awesome runic weapon which will help us accrue dwarven favour much more rapidly. Quite a few of our research topics dont need an amazing lab. The research papers and liber mortis for instance.

Assuming favour is important for building the lab i suspect it might well not.
 
The point of my argument and this is for @SuperSonicSound as well is that because we can get a really killy sword right now we'll have it for so long the situation and thus the various factors feeding our decision will change. If we get a sword over fifteen right now we're not going to get rid of it for years if at all because it is That Good just from looking at the Belt. There will be a massive depression in interest in getting any kind of improvement regardless of if it is fifteen or twenty or twenty five.

The difference there is not one, in my mind, of quantity but the fact that when we hit the twenty-twenty five region we're buying things that will have qualities that will literally blow our minds more than the Belt did and they are effectively going to pay for themselves with how amazing they are to such a degree, there will be such a large ROI that it will feel like they were worth more than that. That's my opinion on how it would work out and why I think that trying to relate the values of a fifteen sword and a twenty sword and a twenty five sword is exceptionally tricky to just impossible.

We could if we say have twenty five points five or six or seven years down the line spend it on something else, in theory. But from what we've seen making commissions is really the only thing that costs that much.

To return to my original point with the Lab and the Weapon not functionally being different, the point I was making is that I think it is incorrect to suppose that we can spend it in a trickle. Here's why: if we spend fifteen on a Really Good Lab, it will be a Really Good Lab in all respects. Every part of it will be affected and every part of it will be brought up to some astounding level of bling shiny. Who can work on that to improve it? Certainly not the efforts of a group of skilled dwarf masons like we might get with five, since their level of improvement was levied already and it has superseeded their skill. So we'd need to, in my mind, save up to buy the attention of a truly stupendous mason. See where I'm going? If Boney is categorizing things as ten being "the limit of normal craft", fifteen being "Exceptional super famous master smith craft" to twenty five being "really this is the best you can physically get period" then that points out that you need greater and greater masters to exceed the work of the previous masters.
But that's not how the Lab works. It's not a singular commission. Boney has explicitly said we can commission rooms from the Dwarfs and by Colleges on a room by room basis. Therefore, it's logical to assume we pay favors for each room rather than the tower holistically, or that if there are holistic tower improvements, we want to get them after we got every single room we thought we needed.

I'm not even going to unpack your first paragraph on why it's equivalent to throw away something the thread has picked up in culmination of a major arc to get something better to upgrading the tower piecemeal as we move from topic to topic. That might mean we deal with enchanting first rather than research, but it's not necessarily costing us anything.
 
To return to my original point with the Lab and the Weapon not functionally being different, the point I was making is that I think it is incorrect to suppose that we can spend it in a trickle. Here's why: if we spend fifteen on a Really Good Lab, it will be a Really Good Lab in all respects. Every part of it will be affected and every part of it will be brought up to some astounding level of bling shiny. Who can work on that to improve it? Certainly not the efforts of a group of skilled dwarf masons like we might get with five, since their level of improvement was levied already and it has superseeded their skill. So we'd need to, in my mind, save up to buy the attention of a truly stupendous mason. See where I'm going? If Boney is categorizing things as ten being "the limit of normal craft", fifteen being "Exceptional super famous master smith craft" to twenty five being "really this is the best you can physically get period" then that points out that you need greater and greater masters to exceed the work of the previous masters.
Hmm, that is a fair point. Now what would such a lab do?

Serious question. I have a good idea what a max favor weapon would be. I'm not sure what a lab like that would do, but I'm willing to hear. If it's really cool, I'll be a lot happier, because I won't have to grump about what happens.
 
@BungieONI

To my mind your ideas are a good reason to hold off on spending any favour on the lab for now to get the awesome runic weapon which will help us accrue dwarven favour much more rapidly.
I don't think a better weapon will actually allow us to accrue Favour faster.

I mean, yes, if a war breaks out we'll have a better chance of murdering some Favour-worthy target, but that isn't going to make the war come any quicker or ensure Mathilde is in a position to behead some warboss.
 
I thought the general public mood earlier was that any super weapon we get for favours should be an axe; because not being proficient with an axe can be fixed with 2 actions, but how much worse the sword would be cannot be fixed for love nor money?

Less general public mood and more literally four people getting very excited about the idea, mostly the same back before the hiatus. As far as I can tell general sentiment is that we like having a big sword for various reasons, we like badass weapons for various reasons and that AP hell never ends.

The counterpoint is mainly about how badass it could be, but its not registering because thats not the motivation for wanting a sword.
Y'know, I think the "best weapon possible in this age" is actually a rather attractive idea. Because maybe this Kragg, who was part of the greatest reconquest for the dwarfs in the age, will find that his very best work isn't actually so far off from the great works of the past. And I like that idea. I just wanna make Kragg smile.

On a completely different note, I like how I can just keep typing, safe in the knowledge that there's no way I'll double post. Very handy.
Kragg: "Now go forth and use this on as many Grobi and Thaggoraki as you can. Especialy the named ones"
 
I just wanna make Kragg smile.
Being a human wizard serving in a dwarf court in a witchhunter's hat wearing a runed belt, wielding the greatest extant example of modern dwarf craft, a weapon that would inevitably be named "Smilebringer", who occasionally strips down to her undies to run around in them, sword and hat, for absolutely no reason at all, definitely not, might actually give Mathilde a point of magic. Purely because of the nexus of confusion she'd become with all of that lining up would make her contribute to Ulgu by her very presence.
 
I don't think a better weapon will actually allow us to accrue Favour faster.

I mean, yes, if a war breaks out we'll have a better chance of murdering some Favour-worthy target, but that isn't going to make the war come any quicker or ensure Mathilde is in a position to behead some warboss.
We're in a war right now, for all intents and purposes.
 
I don't think a better weapon will actually allow us to accrue Favour faster.

I mean, yes, if a war breaks out we'll have a better chance of murdering some Favour-worthy target, but that isn't going to make the war come any quicker or ensure Mathilde is in a position to behead some warboss.
*Points to the other 6 Peaks*
*Points to Black Krag*
*Points to Thunder Mountain*
The War is already here though? And our magic gives us a good chance to headcap a warboss in melee.
 
I thought the general public mood earlier was that any super weapon we get for favours should be an axe; because not being proficient with an axe can be fixed with 2 actions, but how much worse the sword would be cannot be fixed for love nor money?
I was in favour of an axe before, but after discovering that the Dwarf Cult of the Dead carries swords... I think a sword is symbolically appropriate for Mathilde, it being the symbol of the Grey Order as well. Even if it would be less masterfully crafted than an axe.
 
I think it's more that favors can be used to buy more rooms at peak quality, by way of building up from the penthouse, but it's a tricky expansion to do it properly, while other destinations would just have us expand into other unused chambers, or build a foundation that could expand to our expectations.

And then we'd spend other favors to fill it.

The caveat of course is having a wizard's tower at the height of an eventual boomtown built into a dwarfen mountain. It is likely the most mystically potent location in our current hands.
 
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The caveat of course is having a wizard's tower at the height of an eventual boomtown built into a dwarfen mountain. It is likely the most mystically potent location in our current hands.
I can kind of get why the height would help given what Boney said regarding height allowing to to be over the flows of magic, but how does a dwarven mountain enhance its arcane potential?
 
You'd get the maximum oversword out of the second lot. But functionally there is no difference because if we drop fifteen on it, its going to be years and the scale involved basically invalidates all of the stuff we might desire to spend it on that we can see right now.
A +15 Belt took Kragg a few weeks and somebody else's tools.

And the Maximum OverSword is the +25 deluxe, for the sake of thread terminology. If we bought a +10 now and a +15 later, they'd cost the same as the Maximum OverSword, except we would only end up with a +15 sword at the end of it.
 
Hmm, that is a fair point. Now what would such a lab do?

Serious question. I have a good idea what a max favor weapon would be. I'm not sure what a lab like that would do, but I'm willing to hear. If it's really cool, I'll be a lot happier, because I won't have to grump about what happens.
As is obvious this is just what I want out of "Literally Best Lab".

The first thing is that we could miscast in it all day and not do more than ruffle her hair because its all grounded into the mountain/air/runes of No Miscast For You. The second thing is that it would take a literal gangbang of Bloodthirsters to break the door down so we can cram Belegar in there when things Go To Shit and say "No leaving" and then sit on top of him like an angry momma dragon-wizard with complete impunity. And it has enough defenses crammed up its wazoo that we don't have to be paranoid about Clan Eshin ever again. Finally, it gives us enough research boosts from literally the best research magically "sterile" tools that we can shout "I SEE IT ALL" at the top of our lungs with complete seriousness as the minions below start sweating thinking about "Oh god what is the Wizard up to noooooow!?".

This is also functionally equivalent to the scale of what I think a "Sword that is literally one step below godly" should end up being, which is four mindblowing effects all wrapped up in a tasty sweet roll of doom.

But that's not how the Lab works. It's not a singular commission. Boney has explicitly said we can commission rooms from the Dwarfs and by Colleges on a room by room basis. Therefore, it's logical to assume we pay favors for each room rather than the tower holistically, or that if there are holistic tower improvements, we want to get them after we got every single room we thought we needed.

I'm not even going to unpack your first paragraph on why it's equivalent to throw away something the thread has picked up in culmination of a major arc to get something better to upgrading the tower piecemeal as we move from topic to topic. That might mean we deal with enchanting first rather than research, but it's not necessarily costing us anything.
I figure if we end up doing individual rooms there's going to be a starting point we pick and we're going to use that for a while, but the price of making a new room that is up to snuff with everything else will be expensive enough that we just want to wait and use ten to fifteen to get multiple ones in one go as we expand for a Really Big Thing. Or if we decide to completely revamp the security system.

And I don't see much efficiency in upgrading the place where we're spending actions on research when we could be spending those actions used to upgrade the place on more research. There's basically the two disincentives to use what Boney said there in my mind.
 
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