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I think this entire idea is ridiculous.
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[Previous Dwarf Rep: +1]
[Govibarazak: +2]
[Two sublime demonstrations of the power of artillery: +2]
[Grudges Avenged: +8]
[Adbarazi: Your Oath Fulfilled: +2]
[Total: +15]
>
What part of those favors came from Protecting? None of them. That didn't stop us all from sinking the Favor points into a Talisman of Protection. Trying to divvy up our Favor into 'we should only spend this much on this because of how we earned the favor in the first place' is going to cripple our favor spending.
And it's an abstraction in the first place. Don't poke it too hard, it's simplifed for quest purposes, and that's a good thing.
The worth of one weapon has no bearing on the other. They'll do different things and must thus be treated and used most effectively in different ways for one and for two they are likely to come after the span of years given how threats have been escalating.

Lets say for example we got a sword of 3x Rune of Cleaving for ten to fifteen points. Then some time waaaay down the line we have twenty dwarf favor for various fun things we got up to and realize we need a better sword. Then we spend that favor and Kragg decides to Kragg all over it with multi rune shenanigans and suddenly we have something that is clearly superior in a qualitative fashion in much the same way the Belt is for protective purposes.

This is my view on it. And it basically comes down to the point of if we're gaining favor and can expect to gain more, there's functionally no difference. Especially since past a certain point we'll have to stop with the lab because its physically impossible for the dwarves to upgrade it further.
We can only use so many items at the same time. We're already running into that limit, so having the best items possible is important.
 
For easier and more powerful Ulgu casting, we want elf.

For Wind-neutral magical scientific instruments, we want dwarf.

We're currently voting for the Tower as a place to do science to magic, yes?
And we can decide on a room by room basis. Which implies we can add on after the fact. Therefore rendering the much debated 'Tower or Rune Weapon' a false dichotomy.

Not a single voter not many voters in this thread honestly want two Rune Weapons, but Rune Weapons can not be improved after they've been forged. The Tower of Shenanigans, absolutely can be improved by simple virtue of adding more rooms. And I mean, we're the penthouse, nothing is really stopping us from building straight up.
The worth of one weapon has no bearing on the other. They'll do different things and must thus be treated and used most effectively in different ways for one and for two they are likely to come after the span of years given how threats have been escalating.

Lets say for example we got a sword of 3x Rune of Cleaving for ten to fifteen points. Then some time waaaay down the line we have twenty dwarf favor for various fun things we got up to and realize we need a better sword. Then we spend that favor and Kragg decides to Kragg all over it with multi rune shenanigans and suddenly we have something that is clearly superior in a qualitative fashion in much the same way the Belt is for protective purposes.

This is my view on it. And it basically comes down to the point of if we're gaining favor and can expect to gain more, there's functionally no difference. Especially since past a certain point we'll have to stop with the lab because its physically impossible for the dwarves to upgrade it further.
Why plan around wasteful obsolescence when we don't have to? Like why waste those favors when we don't have to? That's still 10-15 points we didn't need to spend if we had just settled for spending 5 more in the first place for something we would have gotten anyways. There will never be a time where favors aren't useful. The only possible justification for your argument is that those 5 favors are absolutely critical in the immediate, or that those 15 favors are worthless because we'll have so many. Those both seem erroneous.
 
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Incidentally, given how we'd use it/would like to use it, I'd say specify it's upgrades as a "tool of destruction".

Anyone else got good ideas for grouping things together?
Shadow over the Waaagh

Sabotaged the Doom Divers +2,
assassinating the Warboss +2,
tripping the troll trap +4,
Assassinating the Warboss +2,
sabotaging Idol of Gork +3.
Countering the Shamans +4,
dispelling the Waaagh-field that empowered the Orcs +4.

Total:21
 
I like the general idea of favors-as-narrative, it's very thematic, but I'm definitely going for at least fifteen anyways (I'd prefer more, but nobody else desires the Maximum OverSword, and fifteen puts it at parity with our belt). Karag Lhune is twelve-ish, but we can just throw in some others on top of that; nothing says we have to spend according to one theme or another, it's just a nice twist of narrative.
I want the Maximum OverSword. I want a 25 favor sword (or any weapon, not hung up on the type), and would settle for a mere 20 after long grumbling. Manlings today just don't have any appreciation of quality anymore.
 
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I think this entire idea is ridiculous.
>
[Previous Dwarf Rep: +1]
[Govibarazak: +2]
[Two sublime demonstrations of the power of artillery: +2]
[Grudges Avenged: +8]
[Adbarazi: Your Oath Fulfilled: +2]
[Total: +15]
>
What part of those favors came from Protecting? None of them. That didn't stop us all from sinking the Favor points into a Talisman of Protection. Trying to divvy up our Favor into 'we should only spend this much on this because of how we earned the favor in the first place' is going to cripple our favor spending.
Uhh, not to get involved in the overall argument, but wasn't "govibarazak" and the connected fulfilled oath literally all about protecting abelheim? And the rest was us taking charge and pushing on in revenge for his death, which considering the belt is all about protection via striking back... That doesn't seem like the best argument here.
 
The worth of one weapon has no bearing on the other. They'll do different things and must thus be treated and used most effectively in different ways for one and for two they are likely to come after the span of years given how threats have been escalating.

Lets say for example we got a sword of 3x Rune of Cleaving for ten to fifteen points. Then some time waaaay down the line we have twenty dwarf favor for various fun things we got up to and realize we need a better sword. Then we spend that favor and Kragg decides to Kragg all over it with multi rune shenanigans and suddenly we have something that is clearly superior in a qualitative fashion in much the same way the Belt is for protective purposes.

This is my view on it. And it basically comes down to the point of if we're gaining favor and can expect to gain more, there's functionally no difference. Especially since past a certain point we'll have to stop with the lab because its physically impossible for the dwarves to upgrade it further.

Im not sure I understand your point exactly, what im trying to say is that by spending say 5 points now and then say 10 in the future were much worse off than if we just spent 15 right now.

Despite the favour cost being the same in both scenarios were going to end up with a much more effective weapon with the 15 point spend then wed get from having one 5 point weapon one 10 point weapon. As the favour buy in has already been honoured each time a future buy in wont use the previous buy in as the starting point for runic items.
 
I like the general idea of favors-as-narrative, it's very thematic, but I'm definitely going for at least fifteen anyways (I'd prefer more, but nobody else desires the Maximum OverSword, and fifteen puts it at parity with our belt). Karag Lhune is twelve-ish, but we can just throw in some others on top of that; nothing says we have to spend according to one theme or another, it's just a nice twist of narrative.
I mean, I've said before that 15-20 favor is my comfort zone, and I THINK SuperSonicSound has pushed for a 25 Favor Weapon before though I might be wrong, so your not alone there.
 
Just remember, a gromril sword will have to wait until somebody unearths a new vein of gromril.

And Kragg might cry if you make him waste his superlative craft and gromril on a manling weapon.
 
There's also

Shadow under the Mountain

[Battle of Karag Lhune: +12]
[Battle of Karag Nar: +5]
Total: 17

Huh, and now I have the phrase:

The King and His Shadow.

King under the Mountain. Shadow under the Mountain.

The next point after The Witch and her Hunter.
 
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I thought the general public mood earlier was that any super weapon we get for favours should be an axe; because not being proficient with an axe can be fixed with 2 actions, but how much worse the sword would be cannot be fixed for love nor money?
 
Just remember, a gromril sword will have to wait until somebody unearths a new vein of gromril.

And Kragg might cry if you make him waste his superlative craft and gromril on a manling weapon.
I suggest clearing the Thunder Ogre's off the mountain and searching the area. The place has been abandoned for millennia but it WAS the place Anvils Of Doom were crafted. We might find some there.

Also I'm totally willing to learn a Great Axe but lets not start THAT conversation up too.
 
Does anyone know how old Mathilde is at this point? I'm wondering if we need to actually start pushing for her to get married so that we can make sure that we'll have someone to leave our new wealth to.
 
I thought the general public mood earlier was that any super weapon we get for favours should be an axe; because not being proficient with an axe can be fixed with 2 actions, but how much worse the sword would be cannot be fixed for love nor money?
It being a greatsword is a goal and a reward all its own, personally; I don't much care about personal actions learning to wield an axe, so much as I just really don't want to not use a flamberge anymore.
Does anyone know how old Mathilde is at this point? I'm wondering if we need to actually start pushing for her to get married so that we can make sure that we'll have someone to leave our new wealth to.
Twenty-nine-ish, but we're a wizard, so even if we don't do anything we're not going to die of old age before the generic everchosen-ish event starts poking its head around..
 
Does anyone know how old Mathilde is at this point? I'm wondering if we need to actually start pushing for her to get married so that we can make sure that we'll have someone to leave our new wealth to.
29-ish? It's not a huge issue, frankly; there's all sorts of individuals or organizations we could leave our stuff to. Most wizards, outside of a few winds, don't marry.
 
I mean, I've said before that 15-20 favor is my comfort zone, and I THINK SuperSonicSound has pushed for a 25 Favor Weapon before though I might be wrong, so your not alone there.

I was 15-20. Ultimately with BoneyM saying Kragg and peers cant match grester than 25 i decided i didnt want to wait years for the delivery. Whilst it would definitely be better theres an opportunity cost in favours we could earn using the slightly less than maximum oversword vs the actual maximum oversword.
 
Honestly I think this is partly Boney's fault for having all of the miscasts in this quest blow up massively. Like the various Shamans or that one Bright Magister. Where's all the slightly more tame miscasts that cause mad laughter or make you shit your pants?
Its the luck of the dice. Mathilde had a miscast which just turned all the grass on one hill monochrome for instance.

But all those guys are tossing Battle Magic around and well...Battle Magic does not shit around when the dice comes up a 1.
Doesn't information given to Mathilde fall under the umbrella of guild secrets?
From what I understand dwarfs count SKILLS and RECORDS separately.
Skills are inherently and intrinsically tied to their idea of Guilds, they expect you to teach an organization and keep it within the organization or teach it to allies. As a Grey Magister, teaching either a subordinate organization or teaching the Grey Order it shouldn't be a problem. If it was they'd say so, like when we asked what it'd take to learn about souls from the priests of Gazul, you'd need to swear oaths to basically join their order as an honorary member to be taught at all.

Records are either secret or not. If they're secret you wouldn't be allowed to copy it to begin with. If they're not secret, sure go nuts. So if we can buy a book for it we're probably allowed to sell the book on.
Do you know what being trained by a hero means? If it's a single action, that's a little expensive. If it's "Until we reach a certain level", that's a hell of a lot more attractive, and something I'd go for.
We have an example from Maxmillian learning smithing from a dwarf smith, and its expected to be a fairly long apprenticeship. Dwarfs like to do it properly so if you buy tutoring they're going to teach you until you reach a level they're satisfied will not shame them.

...which is a cautionary tale for getting Hero training without the skills(like, getting tutoring from Kragg without already Hero level proficiency in that area is wasting his time) because they're not going to accept aborting the training I think. And flunking out would disappoint them, potentially hurting Reputation.
Favours compound.

Say Belebro has 50 Dwarf Favour to call on. Durin has 10. Skaroki has 10. Mathilde has 15.

Well, those guys all have their own ideas about what to spend Favour on, including stashing it for a rainy day. But suppose Belebro authorizes three factories, Durin authorizes one, and Skaroki authorizes one.

5 factories pumping out munitions, siege weapons, gyrocopters et al is good.
8 is better.
I don't think thats how it works here. Belegar is a dwarf king, he doesn't need to buy individual factories with favor, he only needs to buy the services of a relevant Clan or Guild to come over, and then spend regular coin for their services.

We literally just saw it here. Belegar cashes in his High King Favors right on screen for support, Thorgrim, despite how annoyed he is with this naive young brat, sign off on authorizing the Engineers Guild and the Gyrocopter Guild to open a branch in Karag Lhune.

Favors mean different things to different people.
Belegar probably only has to spend money to setup niter factories, if he even needs to do anything other than let them know theres a market ready for them where theres a lot of gunpowder being used on a daily basis AND a lot of shit. Because a Dwarfhold produces a lot of shit and its pure profit.

Extending that to the humans or halflings might cost some, because its Not Traditional, but since they're already right next door in a few months it probably won't cost much either.

I'm actually not sure if it'd cost more for dwarfs to do it for humans/halflings or for dwarfs to teach humans to do it for themselves.
I personally feel that we can get quite a bit of iinstruction without favors at all. Belegar would almost certainly be willing to help us round out our education in economics, Ulthar can teach us ranging, etc. And although hero-level instruction is super valuable, I'd prefer to spend our later favor income on that, because I'd like for Mathilde to commemorate this victory with something more solid, like a weapon and a tower.
Depends. They're very busy people and time spent teaching Mathilde is time they aren't spending elsewhere.
We could probably learn some economics from Belegar just by participating actively in council really.

Kragg probably would cost favors no matter what just to overcome his crankiness.
If we're not fast enough to ground the magic, we're not gonna somehow be rewarded with bonus time to do something else with it instead. It'd just explode.
Which is what I meant. If it explodes in an open area we'd probably be pretty hurt, but most of the force vents into open space.

If it explodes in an enclosed area we'd have to pray the belt is good enough.
That sounds like a weak explanation, particularly given that a bunch of the war machines that can be runed and are being runed are as new or newer than handguns. What's more, it doesn't explain at all why they don't rune another ranged weapon of the dwarfs, one which is definitely very old and traditional - crossbows.

In my opinion, what makes the most sense to me is that they can and do rune ranged weapons, it's just that there are no ranged units of high enough level to warrant rune weapons in the army book.
But the war machines aren't super new in principle? Specific designs may be new, but the dwarfs have a long tradition of siege engine runes, so its only one step further on runing them compared to the 3-4 steps it'd take for guns.

Do they rune cannon?
Genuinely unfamiliar enough to say.
 
I mean, I've said before that 15-20 favor is my comfort zone, and I THINK SuperSonicSound has pushed for a 25 Favor Weapon before though I might be wrong, so your not alone there.
Bling Bastards Unite!

I've said it before, but to me it isn't a calculation of most effective thing (leaving aside that I'm not convinced anything else is better in that regard). I will vote for what I enjoy the most, and "THE BEST POSSIBLE WEAPON" is a damn sexy idea. I'm just not sold that instruction or the tower can rival that.

If you want to sell me on spending the favor on the tower, then you have to be able to show that it'll be in the same league as the tower of Hoeth, and at least on par with the college. Because that's where a 25 favor weapon will be: Among the very best, period. Not quite the Fellblade, or the Warhammer, but the next best thing to literally god forged weapons. The best weapon that can be produced in this age.
 
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Depends. They're very busy people and time spent teaching Mathilde is time they aren't spending elsewhere.
We could probably learn some economics from Belegar just by participating actively in council really.

Kragg probably would cost favors no matter what just to overcome his crankiness.
I mean, yes, but that's Kragg. Belegar probably wouldn't mind, and Ulthar would certainly give us some pointers.
 
They rune cannons and bolt throwers, they dont rune smaller ranged weapons, as theyre not usually made of metal and guns hit all wrong buttons for thier progressive vs conservative thought.
 
I thought the general public mood earlier was that any super weapon we get for favours should be an axe; because not being proficient with an axe can be fixed with 2 actions, but how much worse the sword would be cannot be fixed for love nor money?
I don't see the appeal of min-maxing to avoid a theoretical x% less effective weapon or whatever. I like Mathilde using greatswords, and her using an axe instead would feel weird.

I don't think it will have all that much of a negative impact.
 
And for the argument a Rune Weapon is bad because we're squishy... I present the Rune of Parrying. +1 to hit us in CC essentially. Get a way of pumping our WS (like we manage to somehow get a triple stacked Rune of Striking), or even Boney doing something to let it stack and not even the Everchosen himself could hit us on anything but a 5+. Bonus points if we get the Master Rune of Swiftness and laugh at the elves who expected to reroll To Hit against us.

The notion that the Rune Weapon can only help us try to kill things in melee we shouldn't be isn't necessarily true. Though I know a lot of us would like a more lethal weapon than the one outlined above.
 
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