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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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SuperSonicSound said:
We have obscenes amounts of gold to get tools from the dwarves to assist with our research, gold on the other hand can never be spent on runic items, just that alone means we shouldnt be spending favour on our lab unless its explicitly for runic enhancements and outside of the valya rune we already have i cant see anything else that would help.

Also frankly Alectai i think you drastically underestimating the importance if being able to slaughter your way out of a scrum and seriously over estimating Mathildes ability to disengage.
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Admittedly, our ability to disengage will dramatically improve if we can learn Smoke and Mirrors.

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BoneyM said:
Teleport spell lets you teleport while using FC spells with no miscast chance beyond what the FC spell on its own would risk. You can also cast the Teleport spell on its own which would have Battle Magic miscast chance because magic is a pain like that.

Wolf is already present.
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SuperSonicSound said:
We have obscenes amounts of gold to get tools from the dwarves to assist with our research, gold on the other hand can never be spent on runic items, just that alone means we shouldnt be spending favour on our lab unless its explicitly for runic enhancements and outside of the valya rune we already have i cant see anything else that would help.

Also frankly Alectai i think you drastically underestimating the importance if being able to slaughter your way out of a scrum and seriously over estimating Mathildes ability to disengage.
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it also never hurts to prepare for the worst
 
Ok, went back and double-checked whether or not guns can take runes. Realms of Sorcery definitely makes no restriction on what weapons you can put weapon runes on, but Dwarfs 8ed has this:


It may simply be a case that the units with access to rune weapons in WHFB don't take ranged weapons and so there's no reason to say runes can be applied to ranged weapons, but could also be that they just straight can't. I'd say there's ambiguity there. Given the lack of restrictions in Realms of Sorcery plus the existence of war machine runes, I think it's ok to assume that runes can be put on handguns unless BoneyM says otherwise.
 
thefoolswriter said:
I think us having the 20 point runic sword could help in our assassination missions
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You know what would help assassinations more than a 20 favor sword of dwarven doom? A sword that makes people forget their own guys and screws p their tactics and coordination. Weeping angel sword is better sword.

...

Though now that I think about it, are the people voting for this theoretical super awesome killy-ness sword the same people that wanted to take on Mork as a secondary patron? I mean its about the same logic here. Make MC more brutal in personal combat.

...
Seriously, make an Ulgu sword of weeping angelness is hilarious and effective. Just pick off their guys one by one and them not be able to remember them for a while... its like a horror movie they star in. If your really lucky once you off the guys who trained them they'll literally forget their training midbattle.
 
Kornet said:
Runefangs at 10 are based on BoneyMs rule of a thumb: 1 favour equals to about 10 points of wargear. Runefangs are 100 point wargear.
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At the same time, I'm pretty sure he's also said that no Dwarf alive would be able to make the Runefangs? (Also, I think they were made using the power of a Storm of Chaos? I think that's something I've heard before?)
 
The armor thing was a "Hell, if armor were an option, which it isn't because wizards can't wear it darn -- but maybe we can research it to invent it anyway? Even thought it normally isn't? -- it'd be better to get that before weapons thing."

Don't learn battle-magic; learn the Magister-level spells that still kill people (and in more-stealthy ways too, which is more appropriate than battle magic would be). Or use poison. Assassinating anybody with a 10-Favor runic item is going to be nuts.

Or do things other than be an assassin or a battlefield mage, like your spymistress/mayor/researcher role, but somehow I'm theone talking about wanting to pigeon-hole Mathilde. All because I didn't want to spend 10-20 points on a weapon, because we can achieve combat killyness in other ways, or avoid a need for being super-killy in combat. Although, honestly, learning more magic is rewarding in and of itself. It means you're becoming a more versatile, experienced, powerful wizard.

Also, just... Beyond starting to get nervous about wearing so much valuable gear (the Seed, at least, cannot be taken from us; but Ranald's Coin? People spent a lot of time debating who would win the struggle. I don't think anybody asked themselves what happens if/when Mathilde dies, of old age or battle, or if it gets stolen from her. What do we do when the Coin gets out into the rest of the world?) I'd start to wonder whether carrying that much magic on you might start to get noticeable. In terms of magesight and stuff.

I mean, it was a brief mention in an update, but...
BoneyM said:
Fire crackles against your skin as the Ghyran of the Seed mingles with the Ulgu of your battle magics, and the magic is ignited by dwarvern runecraft before it has a chance to curdle into Dhar.
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Magic items affect the Winds around them, right? So like... Well. They're magic items. At what point does it start making stealth magics more tricky to pull off? Or just when you're not specifically trying to be stealthy, but are just wandering around. Right now, we actually only have 1 blatant and active magic item; the belt. The Coin is under our clothes, and is a Divine item. The seed is passive, and only activatable. The Fire Torc thing we haven't used yet.
Though, that's mostly just nervousness and high speculation talking.


Anyway. Let's just save all that Favor for now. Or use it on building or learning or what-have-you.

Personally, I'd want to wait to use the favor until and unless we organically come across a point in the quest where we're like "Ah, it would be nice to have a Dwarf solution for this." Then we use it. Like when we wanted a healing item, and when we wanted some kind of protection for a mage. That felt like an appropriate time and place.

Personally, I'm kinda wishing we had more obvious and more this-feels-natural ways to use Favor than just runic items. >< Runic items are too... well, they're shinies. They're something that go on your character sheet. Something that contributes directly to your character sheet being powerful. They're very tempting that way. It's tempting to sink a lot of money into that. I wish we could have other, feels-very-natural, ways to spend Favor instead.
 
Mopman43 said:
At the same time, I'm pretty sure he's also said that no Dwarf alive would be able to make the Runefangs? (Also, I think they were made using the power of a Storm of Chaos? I think that's something I've heard before?)
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I guess that's the part where 'about' comes into play.
 
Theres also the fact we ideally should be spending in a future proofing manner we cant upgrade our runic weapon once bought it would have to be replaced entirely. So its much better assuming we cant know ahead of time to spend high and get better than we want or need than to under spend and have to throw more favour in the future.

Also frankly speaking a powerful combat weapon will be more likely to keep us alive and to help us survive bad rolls. Our greatest chance of bad ending is in battle not in the lab. Lets not forget the compounding nature of having a powerful weapon allowing us to earn more favour as well.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
It's a question of opportunity cost - the difference between a 10 and 12 favor weapon is much larger than the difference between a 15 and 17 favor weapon.
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Is it though? Genuine question that. We don't know how point expenditure scales.

The way I see it, we're going to get more favors in the future, but we're reaching the point where we can't actually use much more equipment. So dumping a lot of favor into a scarce slot seems like a good idea, cause before too long we'll reach a point where we'll have to consider how to become more dangerous again, or there will always be things that are just too risky to do. Battle Spells are one thing, but that can't be bought with dwarf favor, and is unreliable besides. Armor is an issue because casting. Belt is already super good. But if we want a better weapon then, we'll have paid for it twice.
 
I think using some Dwarf favours to help us set up a treasure hunting expedition for a book on the level of the Liber Mortis would be pretty fun and satisfying if incredibly impractical.

@BoneyM you should name Liber Mortis' book tier btw.


SuperSonicSound said:
Also quite frankly youre making a dangerous mistake by trying to pigeon hole Mathilde into her role as a 'wizard' this isnt DnD where your taking class levels in wizard and those spells you want mathilde to learn instead of having a powerful weapon? They can kill us. Battle magic is never going to be risk free, a master runic weapon on the other hand that lets us hit like a cannonball? No risk at all.
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Charging into combats in general is never going to be risk free. When we try to sword fight the Warboss we will still be making rolls and if we roll bad enough we'll get ganked.

Also I think you're the one trying to pigeonhole her as a Endgame Fighter by calling it a "dangerous mistake" to try and improve our magic.

Honestly I think this is partly Boney's fault for having all of the miscasts in this quest blow up massively. Like the various Shamans or that one Bright Magister. Where's all the slightly more tame miscasts that cause mad laughter or make you shit your pants?


Gingganz said:
Doesn't a 25 pt. sword just paint a giant target on our back?

As far as I understand the system, this will be one of the strongest weapons in the world. Once news gets out, everyone will want it, and a lot of people won't ask nicely.

Expect visits from Orc Warlords, Chaos Champions, Bloodknights, etc.
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Realistically if people knew about The Belt (hope we name it after it gets some more feats) they would be after it. And it won't be limited to Chaos factions. Greedy Nobles and thieves all would covet it.

Though they would be idiots to try and rob a Grey Magister :p
 
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Guys while I would love to continue this argument we're starting to get heated again. We managed to avoid another Staff visit yesterday. Lets try and keep the ball rolling on that alright?
 
Kornet said:
Can we? I seem to remember a different answer from Boney. But than again, I never had the best of memories.
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BoneyM said:
Teleport spell lets you teleport while using FC spells with no miscast chance beyond what the FC spell on its own would risk. You can also cast the Teleport spell on its own which would have Battle Magic miscast chance because magic is a pain like that.

Wolf is already present.
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Magic is weird.
 
Also, let's be clear: I'm not against a sweet tower, or training. I just think those things can be paid for in gold, not favor, or gotten from our friends. But we won't talk Kragg into giving us a great runesword. So we should use favor to get what we can't get any other way.
Mopman43 said:
We can chain it off of any Fiendishly Complex spell for no extra miscast chance, and those are safe to cast reliably.
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Is that how it works? I thought we had to cast the base battle magic spell at least once, and then can add a teleport to all the things that qualify.
 
Karugus said:
First of all, building our personal army, let alone a wing of gyrobombers is even more stupid- and second of all, why does everyone seem to think we'll have an option to avoid picking any risky fight?

Who's going to scout out this vampire's army so that our allies have the best information to act on? Oh wait, probably Mathilde if we want it to succeed. What are the odds of an ancient undead abomination having supernatural senses or Mathilde getting a bad roll to sneak at any point? What are the odds the voters will want to sit being a glorified cheerleader as our allies or liege have to deal with the enemy's murderhobos? What if we want to try and kill one of the enemy's murderhobos in secrecy and favorable conditions? Like we did with both warbosses?

If you had your way we'd have to give up on every unique way Mathilde can contribute in fighting besides being a generic Grey Magister (if that because Battle Magic is incredibly regulated) once a certain risk threshold has been reached. Or use absurd logic to rationalize the Dwarfs giving us a fleet of bombers we can use at will to destroy our foes, nevermind the fact Belegar would be more suited to having said wing of bombers, does in fact have some bombers, and that there's fairly limited sources of said bombers. All this is just more idle complaints that don't propose a viable alternative, and in case it's not apparent I'm losing my patience for those.

Like I can think of theoretical extreme long term alternatives, but the fact the people constantly dumping on the idea of a rune weapon can't is just obnoxious.
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It was a random example pulled from my ass, friend.

The point I am attempting to make is that 15 Favor is enough to borrow three Hero Dwarf units to train whoever we want. Ever thought Durin should be getting trained by Malakai Makaisson, Ulthar by Josef and Skaroki by Gotrek the Slayer? Sure, who hasn't?
We could get the undumgi training from the Iron Breakers and three other similarly elite regiments. I'm not even sure the Dwarves have enough elite regiments to spend that much Favor on; maybe we'd just need to get them training from the Iron Breakers AND the Hammerers AND the Thunderers AND the Engineering Guild AND the Rangers AND the miners AND the Dwarven War Yodelers.
It's enough to build three factories that could go a long way to making K8P self-sufficient. Gunpowder, siege engines, whatever crazy thing we want.
It's enough to build three Wizard Towers anywhere in the world that will last until the heat death of the universe.
We could walk into four different Dwarf Holds to do magical research that can only be done there. Like, just for a random example, we could go to Karak Hirn and learn how to use sound to instill Terror in creatures like Trolls, and then go back to rework our old horn project from before Und-Uzgar.

But no, apparently it's not getting a runefang that's a failure of imagination and giving up on 'every unique way Mathilde can contribute in fighting besides being a generic Grey Magister.'
 
After reading that last update, one thing I'd like to look at is seeing if we can get some small portion of that library copied and sent off to the Grey College, maybe converting some gold or Dwarven Favor into College Favor in the process.
 
We don't get to decide when we stand on death ground. Planning against it doesn't work when it's deadly because we weren't expecting it.

I also feel that Mathilde's ability to disengage is being somewhat overstated; a human sprinting forever is good for basically humans but green, even drugged up ones, but how does it compare against a monster? And the horse takes precious seconds to mount; a full turn on the battlefield to conjure and climb up on, if I recall correctly.

Sometimes Mathilde will have to stand and fight; unfortunately, those times will also be when it's hardest for her to succeed at fighting, looking at all the things that are fast enough to catch us.
065tdsa said:
I agree with you, but that is battle magic, even if it is easier to cast. Doing it in a pinch, as in 'we need to be teleporting right now', may get dangerous, not to mention that getting it will take a while.
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Well, if we use it with another spell it's 'only' fiendishly complex, but even bog standard Aethyric armor was difficult to cast when we were running for our life, so it's still not really worth relying on unless we can use it to get somewhere hidden or hard to reach (like a closet or a ledge or something).
Garlak said:
What do we do when the Coin gets out into the rest of the world?
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It only works because Ranald wants it to; presumably, it'd go to some other noble-thief type character, or simply not work for anybody else (we might also keep its Aethyric representation or something, Ghal Maraz style; the Emperor has the real war-hammer, but Sigmar always has his hammer too, because having his hammer is what he does, that sort of thing).
Garlak said:
I'd start to wonder whether carrying that much magic on you might start to get noticeable. In terms of magesight and stuff.

I mean, it was a brief mention in an update, but...
Magic items affect the Winds around them, right? So like... Well. They're magic items. At what point does it start making stealth magics more tricky to pull off? Or just when you're not specifically trying to be stealthy, but are just wandering around. Right now, we actually only have 1 blatant and active magic item; the belt. The Coin is under our clothes, and is a Divine item. The seed is passive, and only activatable. The Fire Torc thing we haven't used yet.
Though, that's mostly just nervousness and high speculation talking.
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The belt doesn't emit magic unless it's doing something active either; none of our magic items are constant, so they shouldn't be any more noticeable than our current existence as a nexus of magical energy (which admittedly already does make us visible to those soul eating super-minotaurs and such).
SuperSonicSound said:
Theres also the fact we ideally should be spending in a future proofing manner we cant upgrade our runic weapon once bought it would have to be replaced entirely. So its much better assuming we cant know ahead of time to spend high and get better than we want or need than to under spend and have to throw more favour in the future.

Also frankly speaking a powerful combat weapon will be more likely to keep us alive and to help us survive bad rolls. Our greatest chance of bad ending is in battle not in the lab.
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Finally, this; the reason we're talking about such a powerful weapon is because it's going to be an end-game purchase. If we buy correctly, we will never ever, never never replace this thing, ever. Sigmar didn't replace his, and he became a god.

When we're purchasing for keeps, I think it becomes reasonable to put in a lot more than one might be inclined to if they're thinking in incremental, conservative terms, because any favors we put into this thing will be wasted if we're not satisfied with it (which we will be, of course, but speaking hypothetically). We can't have it reforged to be better, we'd have to start from scratch.

If it were confirmed that we could do incremental improvements to the weapon then I'd be all for starting small, but from a position of sheer skinflintedness I don't want to waste a single favor more than we have to, and that means spending big the first time; feel free to make jokes at my expense for that logic, if you disagree.
 
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BurnNote said:
Is it though? Genuine question that. We don't know how point expenditure scales.
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Mm, that's fair. That said, we have been explicitly told that 10 favors is a breakpoint, where going above that gets us personal attention from a master runelord.

I wouldn't expect a 11 favor weapon to be significantly stronger than a 10 point one, but I would expect it to be much more freeform and less "by the book". A qualitative difference, not a quantitative one.
 
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