Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Deathbybunnies]

I think this is a lack of imagination/information than an actual objective reading of the situation. For instance, the hypothetical below. Do I think thus is 100% true? No. But it does serve as a reminder that for as brilliant as Mathilde is she has like zero experience in normal politicking (hell that's part of why she fled to a dwarf karak warzone) and definitely does not have firm grounding in Asur and Druchi geopolitics to know all the many many many levers or plots that could be used by the latter to screw over the former and Empire in a way that leaves both worse off and them better off.

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Whatever form of trap the Druuchi lay, the absolute last thing it will involve will be giving the Asur information in some way. They're fine with betrayals, sure, but their entire society revolves around how much they hate the Asur.

Besides which, there is an obvious person to be pinged by such a command, and it isn't an Asur on the material plane, it's Caledor Dragontamer again.

 

[Tasoli]

As the sovereign Emperor, it's very arguable whether there is a distinction. Giving it to the Emperor is giving it to the Empire. What the Empire/Emperor did with it is his business.

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Considering He got deposed for it, I am pretty sure nobody in the Empire agrees with this.

Ordinary elf wizards may still have centuries of practice on us. I think it's fairly probable they can teach us a lot while formalising the spell.

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I think what we can learn by collabration is far less than what we can sell completed enchantement.

 

[Codex]

Magna Carta

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"I am not crazy! I know she swapped those numbers. I knew it was 1216. One after Magna Carta. As if I could ever make such a mistake. Never. Never! I just – I just couldn't prove it. She covered her tracks, she got those idiotic Longshanks in Talabheim to lie for her. You think this is something? You think this is bad? This? This chicanery? She's done worse. That Expedition to Karag Dum! Are you telling me that a Hold just happens to pop up out of thin air like that? No! She orchestrated it! Mathilde! She asked for my help! And I did! And I shouldn't have. I gave her Horstmann! What was I thinking? And now you're telling me she gets assigned to save the Empire? What a sick joke! I should've stopped her when I had the chance! …And you, you have to stop her! You..." -Alric testifying on trial vs Mathilde

Idk, I was inspired. The Magna Carta awakened something in me.

 

[Alratan]

I feel collaboration should only be done with the Grey Lords because they can actually teach Mathilde a lot even if she comes with the baseline spell.

Ordinary elf wizards might be marginally more skilled in certain aspects or have some different procedures but it is unlikely Mathilde would learn a lot when working on her own spell.

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I would expect that we could learn significant amounts form the likes of Sarvoi. For one thing, he's simply had a long time to learn lots of things. For another he has a different but related approach and is very likely also educated in the Hoethian approach that Teclis likely taught.

And for another, he seems to have an open mind and be willing to recognise the potential validity of her approach for her, so may be much more willing to synthesise his approach with hers to produce results she can actually make use of.

 

[Aule]

But the Dwarfs have no wrongdoing!

They would definitely never, say, turn on the same army that just helped them fight off a band of orcs while they were recovering from the battle or something. Nothing happened in 2508 IC involving an Asrai army, and their attack next year was definitely unprovoked. And the Dwarfs definitely won that battle that happened for no reason.

Spoiler: The Punchline

"IC 2508-In this year, Ungrim Ironfist, Slayer King of Karak Kadrin, brought an army of greenskins to battle on the edge of Athel Loren. Seeing the justice of the Dwarfs' cause, Thalandor Doomstar brought a host to the Mountain-Dweller's aid. The battle soon turned against the greenskins but, in the hour of victory, the Dwarfs carried their axes against the Wood Elves also, seeking to repay a millennia old Grudge. Swearing vengeance for his lost kin, Thalandor retreated." Wood Elves 8ed, Pg. 33, under the heading Dwarfen Treachery.

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Nothing happened in 2508 because it's 2489 right now.

In any case, this is Wood Elf book. The scene is from their viewpoint. Ungrim may actually have had a good reason to attack other than grudgesettling - notably since the described scene lacks any mention of Thalandor actually saying to Dwarfs that he came to their aid.

 

[Tasoli]

I would expect that we could learn significant amounts form the likes of Sarvoi. For one thing, he's simply had a long time to learn lots of things. For another he has a different but related approach and is very likely also educated in the Hoethian approach that Teclis likely taught.

And for another, he seems to have an open mind and be willing to recognise the potential validity of her approach for her, so may be much more willing to synthesise his approach with hers to produce results she can actually make use of.

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My argument is we can sell completed product for more than just that. IF Sarvoi is what you want there is nothing stopping from asking him to come to collages for some time, it is literally what I asked Boney.

You are arguing for pennies to dollar I feel like so lets get an offer first.

 

[Shine]

Nothing happened in 2508 because it's 2489 right now.

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I think the actual point is that the Dwarves can be as every bit as proud, alien, destructive and cruel as any Elf, but because they're our best friends we love them, so there's a wild double standard amongst some of us with regards to the elder races. Not whether Ungrim the Slayer King did or did not do this or that.

 

[Codex]

Did Hatalah showed a propensity for murder in other interactions? I think judging him that harshly on such thin grounds is a bit unfair. And him using murder still doesn't sound like that big of a deal. Him wanting to murder a servant of Morathi doesn't make him look particularly bad in my eyes.

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The one talking here isn't Hatalath. It's Harethi. This is Marrisith's uncle. This is our first time seeing him. We have no other interactions with him. All we have on him is Marrisith not liking him

 

[K von Carstein]

Nothing happened in 2508 because it's 2489 right now.

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It's not that important. The fact that such an incident is canon proves that it can happen.

In any case, this is Wood Elf book. The scene is from their viewpoint. Ungrim may actually have had a good reason to attack other than grudgesettling - notably since the described scene lacks any mention of Thalandor actually saying to Dwarfs that he came to their aid.

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I guess it's technically possible, but it's still a huge dick move to attack your saviours.

The one talking here isn't Hatalath. It's Harethi. This is Marrisith's uncle. This is our first time seeing him. We have no other interactions with him. All we have on him is Marrisith not liking him

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Well, oops😅 Thanks for the correction. I still think it's not that big of a deal, but i can definitely understand why Marisith doesn't want him at a diplomatic meeting.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

An Emperor previously unilaterally split the Mootland off as an independent province from Stirland without consulting the existing Elector Counts, creating a new electoral province in the process, and that precedent held.

That messed with existing provinces much more than the independence of Marienberg.

And your also saying the one province gets to have a say about the internal organisation of its neighbours.


As the sovereign Emperor, it's very arguable whether there is a distinction. Giving it to the Emperor is giving it to the Empire. What the Empire/Emperor did with it is his business.

Also, the concept that it's possible for the Emperor to do something illegal is itself arguable, and the concept that an Emperor can be bribed by a vassal is also very questionable. A vassal paying an Emperor to do what they want is just a standard transaction between a vassal and their superior. It's the relationship working as intended.

This isn't a modern state with a modern conception of the role of leaders.

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But on the flipside, this isn't a modern state where all of the rules have either been hammered down or been abused out of existence by bad actors following only the letter of the law when it's to their benefit. It doesn't go by Air Bud rules, the fact that there's no rule that explicitly says a dog can't play basketball bribe the Emperor into letting them carve off a chunk of the country doesn't mean much when all of the other parties say "no, that's not something we're going to allow, actually".

But then they couldn't enforce their refusal because Grom the Paunch rolled through, and then the Asur blew up their military for trying.

 

[agumentic]

An Emperor previously unilaterally split the Mootland off as an independent province from Stirland without consulting the existing Elector Counts, creating a new electoral province in the process, and that precedent held.

That messed with existing provinces much more than the independence of Marienberg.

And your also saying the one province gets to have a say about the internal organisation of its neighbours.

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Yeah, and I bet that at least sometime after Drakwald Emperors there was an agreement that no, the Emperor can't do that. Probably by the time of Magnus, if not earlier, because the Age of Three Emperors surely had plenty of examples of rival emperors reassigning pieces of the provinces as they want.

And what I'm saying is that no elector wants to suddenly find his trade cut because someone bribed the Emperor. Internal organization ceases to be internal matter when it's something that affects almost every other province. Like, Dieter wasn't deposed out of fun, he was deposed because every high noble agreed that he was breaking their rights. It's arguable whether they are right, but I'll bet you anything this is exactly what they are arguing with plenty of legal proof.

 

[Mopman43]

Nothing happened in 2508 because it's 2489 right now.

In any case, this is Wood Elf book. The scene is from their viewpoint. Ungrim may actually have had a good reason to attack other than grudgesettling - notably since the described scene lacks any mention of Thalandor actually saying to Dwarfs that he came to their aid.

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I don't know if it's a factor, but I also feel like pointing out that Thalandar is a Treekin living under eternal torment.

(8th edition WE says that all Treekin are born from the souls of WE when they die, but they don't remember anything of their previous lives apart from flashes. Thalandar died while being tortured by a group of Slaanesh daemons who cursed him to always remember their torture of him… which meant when he was reborn as a Treekin he remembered his whole life, took revenge on the Daemons, and is still the ruler of his realm of WE in Athel Loren. Also still eternally feeling what the daemons did to him)

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Ordinary elf wizards may still have centuries of practice on us. I think it's fairly probable they can teach us a lot while formalising the spell.

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Not solely in Uglu though.

Sure we'd get something but Mathilde's mastery of Uglu surpasses that of most elf wizards (at the cost of being pants on all other winds).

I would expect that we could learn significant amounts form the likes of Sarvoi. For one thing, he's simply had a long time to learn lots of things. For another he has a different but related approach and is very likely also educated in the Hoethian approach that Teclis likely taught.

And for another, he seems to have an open mind and be willing to recognise the potential validity of her approach for her, so may be much more willing to synthesise his approach with hers to produce results she can actually make use of.

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Which would be great if we're learning from him the differences in a structured way or if we're working together on something new but Mathilde already has a fairly refined spell.

I bet Sarvoi can give us some handy tips regardless but they wouldn't be commensurate to the value of new BM spell built on Mathilde's profound understanding of Uglu.

Maybe we could get some elf magic instruction ? Maybe BM or enchantments?


Now the Grey Lords - they probably possess the sort of lore that would blow up our minds even in small amounts.

 

[Alratan]

I think what we can learn by collabration is far less than what we can sell completed enchantement.

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It's not a choice though. We collaborate as part of selling them the enchantment.

I also don't think that in the Eonir's position I'd be willing to buy a strategic enchantment that was this important and potentially dangerous without their own wizards being integrally involved in the design and implementation.

I mean, just look at the current Waystone project. The entire reason it exists is because Laurelorn allowed a strategic set of enchant d infrastructure to be built on its territory that they didn't understand, and so now have to reverse engineer to restore it's functionality.

Why would they repeat that same mistake that they're in the middle of trying to fix?

And, once again; I'm not saying we sell them Rite of Way solely in return for Savroi collaborating. As I explicitly said, a I'm suggesting that collaborating with him is step one in a joint project to construct Rite of Way towers that results in them paying the Empire/Colleges in additional magical knowledge when they've seen from the success of the project that the Empire have more skin in the game and so are less likely to use said knowledge against them.

The collaboration with Sarvoi is to hopefully accelerate the initial stages of the project, assuage their security concerns, and front load a bit of useful knowledge for Mathilde before the final payment.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I think the actual point is that the Dwarves can be as every bit as proud, alien, destructive and cruel as any Elf, but because they're our best friends we love them, so there's a wild double standard amongst some of us with regards to the elder races. Not whether Ungrim the Slayer King did or did not do this or that.

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To be honest, unless the dwarves are relevant to dealing with the Druuchi in some way I haven't seen explained, this seems like whataboutism. "You let the dwarves get away with all kinds of nonsense!" I'm not convinced we do to the degree implied, but that wouldn't magically make Asur nonsense okay either?

Not targeted at you specifically so much as the various times this argument has cropped up. If people think we're giving the dwarves too much credit then they ought to complain about that when it comes up, not try and extend the thing they're decrying to their preferred woobie race.

 

[Aule]

I guess it's technically possible, but it's still a huge dick move to attack your saviours.

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We don't even know if they were the saviors. The entire description fits in a tiny corner of a page in the book. The point is, Ungrim may have had legitimate reasons to believe that he was under attack, not that WE came to help him.

 

[A_Somebody]

Pretty much this. The Emperor rules by consent—specifically the consent of the Electors, which include the three Electors of the Cult of Sigmar, and when Marienburg became independent they had to move the seat of the Arch-lector of the North to... Ostland, I think?



I don't think that hypothetical is likely, because the command phrases are not strings of gibberish, they are actual words and phrases in Anoqeyån and by studying the phrase we should be able to understand its purpose and effect. The problem is that we don't know which words and phrases have been coded into the Waystones.

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Whatever form of trap the Druuchi lay, the absolute last thing it will involve will be giving the Asur information in some way. They're fine with betrayals, sure, but their entire society revolves around how much they hate the Asur.

Besides which, there is an obvious person to be pinged by such a command, and it isn't an Asur on the material plane, it's Caledor Dragontamer again.

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Again, I say in the post that I dont necessarily think that specific scenario is on the table, but that it serves as an illustrative example of how potential Druchi plots and machinations are the dictionary definition of "Unknown unknowns" to Mathilde. So going "mhrm they don't have any obvious reason to betray us i as someone with zero experience in this field can see, so obviously they won't and we'll create a nice happy economically beneficial relationship that no would could ever rationally want to fuck with," seems incredibly naive to me.

And a separate point even if we take the supposition that "we will create a mutually beneficial trade relationship that would be irrational to break" premise as ironclad fact, that still doesn't preclude it getting broken. Again pointing to the entire prelude of WWI and the fact that the facts we do know of Druchi include the fact they are ruled by an immortal despot who's been trying to conquer Ultuhan for the past few thousand years and is willing to destroy the world in a hissy fit when he doesn't get want he wants.

 

[Shine]

To be honest, unless the dwarves are relevant to dealing with the Druuchi in some way I haven't seen explained, this seems like whataboutism. "You let the dwarves get away with all kinds of nonsense!" I'm not convinced we do to the degree implied, but that wouldn't magically make Asur nonsense okay either?

Not targeted at you specifically so much as the various times this argument has cropped up. If people think we're giving the dwarves too much credit then they ought to complain about that when it comes up, not try and extend the thing they're decrying to their preferred woobie race.

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It's not really that we're alright with Asur nonsense. We obviously would prefer the Asur become competent at foreign policy and stop their shenanigans, just as we would prefer the Dwarves not rate their grudges higher than life and sanity itself.

I, however, personally am bewildered by the outright antipathy towards the Asur and the corresponding sympathy (!!!!) to their direct rivals, especially when we're BFFs with the Dwarves. Mathilde is far more a dwarf friend than an elf friend, definitely, but for us OOC, both the Asur and the Dawi are great forces of Good (although the Asur globally, the Dawi regionally), and both have their flaws. Hence, I see a double standard between how the elder races are portrayed here- if the strange and inhuman Dawi can be our good friends, why do we (again, the players, who have setting knowledge) disdain the faction who lay down their lives by the thousands to defend the world?

Edit: Or, even worse, why favourable mentions to the nihilistic, enslaving, genocidal, warp-dealing sadists directly contributing to ending it???

Edit: I don't mind us liking the elder races either. I'd love to be their friends, they're both awesome, and their also being flawed I don't hold against them (too much). The juxtaposition bewilders me, though.

 

[Tasoli]

It's not a choice though. We collaborate as part of selling them the enchantment.

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Okay. Stop.

How are you deciding this is not a choice? Did Boney tell you something? If so share with the class if not you are not deciding this either so stop acting like it.

 

[agumentic]

both the Asur and the Dawi are great forces of Good (although the Asur globally

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Are Asur globally a force for good? I mean, that is certainly true in some interpretations of the setting, but is it here?

 

[Shine]

Are Asur globally a force for good? I mean, that is certainly true in some interpretations of the setting, but is it here?

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Base canon, IIRC correctly, holds true that the Asur defend the Vortex, defend the Waystones, and wage a never ending oceanic crusade against the Norscans and the DE, even though by all rights they would clealry be better served spending more time, at home, raising kids and not going extinct.

So yes. They are rightfully the Shield of Civilisation for their heroism in the Vortex alone, even if they're utterly incompetent at… having any allies whatsoever.

 

[SITB]

Are Asur globally a force for good? I mean, that is certainly true in some interpretations of the setting, but is it here?

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They fight Druuchi slavers.

 

[Woltaire]

The Ten Kingdoms of Ulthuan are, while united, possibly even touchier about how independent they may or may not be from the Phoenix King than Elector Counts are about the Emperor, and the Ambassadorship rotates on a regular basis based on whichever Kingdom needs their ego soothed. Currently it flies the flag of the moonlit raven, the flag of Nagarythe, the haunted land ravaged once by daemons and ever since by strife.

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We then go straight to Daroir (the high elf ambassador) and tell him that the Druichi are sniffing around trying to subvert the Colleges by offering magical lore and trying to ally against Marienberg.

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fyi the ambassador at the moment may not be daroir which would complicate those kind of plans since there be no goodwill with the ambassador then. With them saying they roate on a regular basis it pretty likely he won't be there anymore

You know what this quest needs?
Actual high elves appearing, and also sounding completely reasonable and justified.

Cos right now, the only appearances they've made is second hand accounts from their rivals, accounts from their ancient enemies, hero-worship accounts from their students and a elf from Nagarythe.

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"A generous gift, from an unexpected quarter." Daroir smiles in anticipation. "It is a rare gambit of Teclis that does not bear fruit. I am glad to see the blossoming of this flower." He lifts a hand to his long, snow-white hair, and though you could swear it was unadorned, he plucks a tiny black raven carved from onyx from his locks and holds it out to you. "If you have the inclination and time to spare between now and when the world ends, seek Lothern and present this to any of the Sea Guard. For ninety-nine days you may call Nagarythe your home, and shall shed blood alongside us to defend it. Our Arhain are not as sought as Saphery's Sariour, but you of the grey of eight may be able to appreciate them."

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I wished we had done elfication before this whole saga hopefully we can do it soon yah

 

[Shine]

They fight Druuchi slavers.

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Honestly, that's less a joke, and more a real argument for their being a global force for good….

 

[Alratan]

Pretty much this. The Emperor rules by consent—specifically the consent of the Electors, which include the three Electors of the Cult of Sigmar, and when Marienburg became independent they had to move the seat of the Arch-lector of the North to... Ostland, I think?

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It depends on who you ask. According to some Electors that's the case, according to some Emperors the Electors are appointed and can be dismissed by the Emperor and similarly the rulers, borders and indeed numbers of provinces are in the gift of the Emperor.

At different times both have been the case, but this isn't a question of law; it's a question of political and military power, it's not within the domain of jurisprudence. For someone from the Empire, asking who the law says gets to decide this kind of question may well be a non-sequitur, just like asking who the winner of a battle or a game of chance is.

They aren't questions within the portfolio of Verena, they're questions for Sigmar and Ranald respectively, and their favour is demonstrated on the battlefield/gaming table not in the court room.