Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Tasoli]

on collaborating with Mathilde in the codification process,

Click to shrink...

No not this. We haven't even tried to this ourselves. We sould not shoot ourselves in the foot by asking something we might be able to do ourselves. I want an actual payment of sorts. Sarvoi spending few years with collages is payment. Books are payment. Mere collabration is not.

 

[Mopman43]

It depends if the Bretonni horse tribes were sedentary or nomadic at that point. If they didn't have fixed territories, the Dukes of Parravon and Montfort may simply have roamed over the lowlands of what became Bretonnia, rather than the mountainous terrain their descendants now settle and rule.

They could have been Imperial ruled until the aftermath of the Black Plague and were taken and settled by migrating Bretonnians then.

Click to shrink...

It's generally described as full of forts/castles. They definitely weren't nomadic.

There's a fun question; how would history be different if Gilles was a contemporary of Sigmar.

Barring any misunderstandings or Chaos shenanigans, they'd probably be close allies, maybe even as close as the Dwarves. That would drastically reduce conflicts between Bretonnia and the Empire.

More canon related question; when did Damsels become a thing?

Click to shrink...

6th edition for what edition they first appeared in, 'shortly after Gilles' is the best answer I can give you in-universe.

 

[Alratan]

No not this. We haven't even tried to this ourselves. We sould not shoot ourselves in the foot by asking something we might be able to do ourselves. I want an actual payment of sorts. Sarvoi spending few years with collages is payment. Books are payment. Mere collabration is not.

Click to shrink...

Collaboration that produces future collaboration and involves sharing your more developed theoretical knowlege is payment. It's a method of knowledge transfer.

And any payment would be for the whole project; of which Sarvoi collaborating on codification would simply be a small part of. We'd get them to assist the Colleges in return for building the chain of RoW towers and opening up secure trade; not for the initial step.

For one thing, we know they're not comfortable handing over militarily useful knowledge like magical lore yet, which is why we link that transfer to the results of the project which gives them more of a guarantee of peace not to an interim step that may not lead anywhere.

It's generally described as full of forts/castles. They definitely weren't nomadic.

Click to shrink...

It's also not very well described at all in sources we can assess the reliability of. For all we know the mention of forts and castles are anachronisms because all we have are contemporary Bretonnian legends that are told that way because the audience are familiar with them, just like they may have plate armour in which we know they didn't have at that point.

Or Parravon and Montfort were elsewhere at that point, and when they took their modern lands the name moved with them as they relocated.

 

[Tasoli]

Collaboration that produces future collaboration and involves sharing your more developed theoretical knowlege is payment. It's a method of knowledge transfer.

And any payment would be for the whole project; of which Sarvoi collaborating on codification would simply be a small part of. We'd get them to assist the Colleges in return for building the chain of RoW towers and opening up secure trade; not for the initial step.

For one thing, we know they're not comfortable handing over militarily useful knowledge like magical lore yet, which is why we link that transfer to the results of the project which gives them more of a guarantee of peace not to an interim step that may not lead anywhere.

Click to shrink...

No offense but just sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. There is no way they are going to pay us to let them develop the Rite of Bridge enchantment. If we are going to sell it we are going to need to make it ourselves first. Idea is to exchange of knowladge and we will look at what they offer. Not more collabration for the sake of collabration. We already have one those.

I mean deployement of the spell might be collobration but codification is not just NO but HELL NO

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Thinking some more about what would be required for this proposal. I suspect we'd need to codify/optimise Rite of Way so that we could share it with the Eonir, as I doubt they'd be keen on a massive piece of magical infrastructure that cast a spell they couldn't cast leading into their kingdom in case of 'undocumented features' that the Empire could later exploit.

Click to shrink...

There is an argument that the Eonir would actually prefer the version made with Mathy's personal version of Rite of Way, over the codified version. Even if that means know repairs or adjustments.

Only one person in all of history will ever be able to mess with it, because it's a black box written in Mathy's own made up code. rather then the version that 'someone smart enough could crack it.'

 

[deathofrats0808]

There is an argument that the Eonir would actually prefer the version made with Mathy's personal version of Rite of Way, over the codified version. Even if that means know repairs are adjustments.

Only one person in all of history will ever be able to mess with it, because it's a black box written in Mathy's own made up code. rather then the version that 'someone smart enough could crack it.'

Click to shrink...

I suspect they'd prefer a version they could mess around with, rather than one which only someone who works for another polity can.

 

[Codex]

"The southern Holds called us paranoid, even as history gave the horrible answers to our other two suspicions: Why Uzkulak? Why Tylos?

Click to shrink...

Age of Sigmar is completely non-canon to DL, but I couldn't help but think of this quest, specifically this line, when I read the latest White Dwarf. Grombrindal says this in regards to the Skaven:

Spoiler: AoS Grombrindal

'It surprises me not that those whose civilisation first gnawed their way into being from the failure of mine should mimic the worst of my people even now,' White Fur continued. 'Your industry, your greed. You're naught but a twisted reflection of us. I should loath you, as I do the orruk and the grot, but you Skaven are too wretched even to hate.'

Nevertheless, lots of interesting stuff was in that short story, and I couldn't help but connect the dots to Borek's conversation.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

I suspect they'd prefer a version they could mess around with, rather than one which only someone who works for another polity can.

Click to shrink...

But in their view, she is also 'someone that will die soon. Then no one can mess with it.'

 

[Tasoli]

There is an argument that the Eonir would actually prefer the version made with Mathy's personal version of Rite of Way, over the codified version. Even if that means know repairs or adjustments.

Only one person in all of history will ever be able to mess with it, because it's a black box written in Mathy's own made up code. rather then the version that 'someone smart enough could crack it.'

Click to shrink...

I suspect they'd prefer a version they could mess around with, rather than one which only someone who works for another polity can.

Click to shrink...

I am pretty sure elves likes codified spells over personal variations. We have seen that they use spells as such and makes sense too since they don't want feedback when they cast stuff.

 

[deathofrats0808]

But in their view, she is also 'someone that will die soon. Then no one can mess with it.'

Click to shrink...

That just means that when it breaks, no one can fix it.

 

[Alratan]

No offense but just sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. There is no way they are going to pay us to let them develop the Rite of Bridge enchantment. If we are going to sell it we are going to need to make it ourselves first. Idea is to exchange of knowladge and we will look at what they offer. Not more collabration for the sake of collabration. We already have one those.

I mean deployement of the spell might be collobration but codification is not just NO but HELL NO

Click to shrink...

Collaboration on spell codification should give us valuable insight into their knowledge of Ulgu and their theory of spell crafting.

And if we're going to be sharing the knowledge with them anyway; we might as well be benefit as much as possible from the process. If we're pitching them the idea of RoW Towers across the swamp we might as well make it a fully joint project so that we can do it with as few of our own AP as possible, so we learn as much as possible along the way, and also so they are most likely to accept the deal because they understand in detail how the proposed bill enchantment functions and are less afraid we've included something a future hostile Empire could exploit.

There is an argument that the Eonir would actually prefer the version made with Mathy's personal version of Rite of Way, over the codified version. Even if that means know repairs or adjustments.

Only one person in all of history will ever be able to mess with it, because it's a black box written in Mathy's own made up code. rather then the version that 'someone smart enough could crack it.'

Click to shrink...

Unless that black box has some undocumented 'features' that the Empire can exploit that they're unaware of. That's a big problem with black boxes. You don't know what someone has compiled in there.

 

[Mopman43]

It's also not very well described at all in sources we can assess the reliability of. For all we know the mention of forts and castles are anachronisms because all we have are contemporary Bretonnian legends that are told that way because the audience are familiar with them, just like they may have plate armour in which we know they didn't have at that point.

Or Parravon and Montfort were elsewhere at that point, and when they took their modern lands the name moved with them as they relocated.

Click to shrink...

The 6th and 7th Great Battles were in and under the mountains of Montfort. The 6th especially is pretty vitally important because that's the one where Gilles almost died to a Goblin bolt-thrower.

Knights of the Grail records the major land changes that occurred in the Dukedoms- Cuileux and Glanborielle were adsorbed into other Dukedoms and Lyonesse annexed half of Mousillon.

Entire Dukedoms shifting around would be pretty significant. Why would it not be the more likely case that Imperial rule ended earlier?

 

[Tasoli]

That just means that when it breaks, no one can fix it.

Click to shrink...

They already use codified spells and they can always ask our notes to be handed over to Grey Lords if that is an issue.

 

[deathofrats0808]

They already use codified spells and they can always ask our notes to be handed over to Grey Lords if that is an issue.

Click to shrink...

Yes, except that doesn't work if the spell used is an uncodified version which only Mathilde can use.

 

[Tasoli]

Collaboration on spell codification should give us valuable insight into their knowledge of Ulgu and their theory of spell crafting.

Click to shrink...

It won't teach as something Collages don't know and I alread thinking about asking for lecturers who can share this stuff. You are literally negotioting against yourself. What we get for a codifed handover might be far more than what we get collabration most likely.

Which is more valuable, iron bar or steel sword?
Edit: Also we already saw how long it takes to gather collobration partners you want to go tought that one again? WTF!

Yes, except that doesn't work if the spell used is an uncodified version which only Mathilde can use.

Click to shrink...

We haven't even tried to codify it. People literally arguing to not try it at this point. I don't even know why there is such strong pushback every time it gets brought up.

 

[Codex]

I don't see why using murder instead of kill would mean something worse.
I read it not as him enjoying murder in general, but enjoying specifically murdering the servants of the person who's responsible for the heavy trauma he suffered.

Click to shrink...

Murder has very different connotations to kill. Khaine is the God of Murder, not the God of Killing.

I'm not begrudging his desire for revenge, but considering his general demeanour combined with Marrisith being relieved that he didn't come see her tells me something's wrong. Elves don't use the word "murder" lightly.

 

[agumentic]

The Emperor entered an agreement to release one of the Emperor's vassals. Arguing that it's unlawful is in very shaky ground. This isn't a unilateral secession; this was a negotiated departure with a province paying their sovereign compensation in return for their freedom.

Trying to claim that it's not legal runs into all sorts of problems relating to what Emperors can do. It also runs into serious issues that if Emperors can't surrender claims over provinces, that means the Emperor is claiming that Kislev, the Border Princes, and The Duchy of Montfort are still Imperial provinces that are either in rebellion, abandoned by the Imperial government in breach of its obligations as the sovereign to its vassals; or occupied by a foreign power.

The Emperor isn't a constitutional monarchy. The whole concept that the Emperor is bound by law when it comes to imperial issues is probably deeply contested or completely rejected by the imperial authorities. The concept that the sovereign is bound by law is a very late one.

Click to shrink...

I think the argument here would be less "the Emperor can't do it" and more "the Emperor can't do that unilateraly, without consulting the Electors, because it is undue interference into their affairs". I bet Reikland, for example, got really fucked over by Marienburg suddenly being completely independent. It's a constitutional issue only insomuch as something like Magna Carta would be a constitution.

 

[Alratan]

The 6th and 7th Great Battles were in and under the mountains of Montfort. The 6th especially is pretty vitally important because that's the one where Gilles almost died to a Goblin bolt-thrower.

Knights of the Grail records the major land changes that occurred in the Dukedoms- Cuileux and Glanborielle were adsorbed into other Dukedoms and Lyonesse annexed half of Mousillon.

Entire Dukedoms shifting around would be pretty significant. Why would it not be the more likely case that Imperial rule ended earlier?

Click to shrink...

The fact that the battles happened there doesn't mean that it was Bretonni territory at the time. There was a massive orc waaagh happening, an army of horse nomads couod just having been going wherever they were to fight them.

And if they had been fighting alongside, say, local Imperial forces, do you think the Bretonnians would have definitely included that in their founding myths, or could have misplaced that information along the way.

That's the thing, it's like the Arthurian legends. We can reasonably believe that there was a war leader active in sub-Roman Britain, who may be identified with Arthur, behind that, not much.

That's roughly my view of how certain we can be about any events that happened in a Bretonnia about the same amount of time ago, possibly less as we're better at archeology and historical analysis than they are in Warhammer Fantasy, so are likely to interrogate the sources they have less effectively.

They already use codified spells and they can always ask our notes to be handed over to Grey Lords if that is an issue.

Click to shrink...

It doesn't help. From what we know, codified spells are a true black box. We could redact our notes; they won't be able to validate if there's something else we've compiled in there we haven't mentioned.

 

[A_Somebody]

The Druchii won't backstab us unless it's to their profit to do that—and I've seen nothing to suggest that screwing over the Empire in economic and political relations would do that.

Click to shrink...

I think this is a lack of imagination/information than an actual objective reading of the situation. For instance, the hypothetical below. Do I think thus is 100% true? No. But it does serve as a reminder that for as brilliant as Mathilde is she has like zero experience in normal politicking (hell that's part of why she fled to a dwarf karak warzone) and definitely does not have firm grounding in Asur and Druchi geopolitics to know all the many many many levers or plots that could be used by the latter to screw over the former and Empire in a way that leaves both worse off and them better off.

Allow me to posit a hypothetical then. Druchii gives us a code to activate a Waystone. Unbeknownst to us, the code sends a signal to Ulthuan, perhaps as part of an emergency or maintenance system. Ulthuan sends forces to investigate. If said forces are rebuffed, tensions escalate. If they find out what we are doing, same thing. As a result of the escalating tensions, parts of the Asur navy are diverted to Marienburg. This diverting of ships means that the Druchii have a freer hand in raiding. There, a tangible motive from the Druchii screwing us over, assuming potentially tanking relations between the Asur and the governments behind the Waystone Project isn't motive enough.

Click to shrink...

 

[Tasoli]

It doesn't help. From what we know, codified spells are a true black box. We could redact our notes; they won't be able to validate if there's something else we've compiled in there we haven't mentioned.

Click to shrink...

How about we ask them rather than you deciding what they want? That sounds like far more healty way to go about this I think.

this was a negotiated departure with a province paying their sovereign compensation in return for their freedom.

Click to shrink...

Problem is compensation was not given to empire. Bribe was given to Dieted IV. Pretty sure bribery is still illegal so that agreement should be null.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Collaboration on spell codification should give us valuable insight into their knowledge of Ulgu and their theory of spell crafting.

Click to shrink...

I feel collaboration should only be done with the Grey Lords because they can actually teach Mathilde a lot even if she comes with the baseline spell.

Ordinary elf wizards might be marginally more skilled in certain aspects or have some different procedures but it is unlikely Mathilde would learn a lot when working on her own spell.

 

[deathofrats0808]

We haven't even tried to codify it. People literally arguing to not try it at this point. I don't even know why there is such strong pushback every time it gets brought up.

Click to shrink...

Sure, but that's an entirely different argument from "the Eonir would prefer an uncodified version so that it's more secure", which is what I was arguing against?

 

[Alratan]

I think the argument here would be less "the Emperor can't do it" and more "the Emperor can't do that unilateraly, without consulting the Electors, because it is undue interference into their affairs". I bet Reikland, for example, got really fucked over by Marienburg suddenly being completely independent. It's constitutional issue only insomuch as something like Magna Carta would be a constitution.

Click to shrink...

An Emperor previously unilaterally split the Mootland off as an independent province from Stirland without consulting the existing Elector Counts, creating a new electoral province in the process, and that precedent held.

That messed with existing provinces much more than the independence of Marienberg.

And your also saying the one province gets to have a say about the internal organisation of its neighbours.

Problem is compensation was not given to empire. Bribe was given to Dieted IV. Pretty sure bribery is still illegal so that should be null.

Click to shrink...

As the sovereign Emperor, it's very arguable whether there is a distinction. Giving it to the Emperor is giving it to the Empire. What the Empire/Emperor did with it is his business.

Also, the concept that it's possible for the Emperor to do something illegal is itself arguable, and the concept that an Emperor can be bribed by a vassal is also very questionable. A vassal paying an Emperor to do what they want is just a standard transaction between a vassal and their superior. It's the relationship working as intended.

This isn't a modern state with a modern conception of the role of leaders.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

I think the argument here would be less "the Emperor can't do it" and more "the Emperor can't do that unilateraly, without consulting the Electors, because it is undue interference into their affairs". I bet Reikland, for example, got really fucked over by Marienburg suddenly being completely independent. It's a constitutional issue only insomuch as something like Magna Carta would be a constitution.

Click to shrink...

Pretty much this. The Emperor rules by consent—specifically the consent of the Electors, which include the three Electors of the Cult of Sigmar, and when Marienburg became independent they had to move the seat of the Arch-lector of the North to... Ostland, I think?

I think this is a lack of imagination/information than an actual objective reading of the situation. For instance, the hypothetical below. Do I think thus is 100% true? No. But it does serve as a reminder that for as brilliant as Mathilde is she has like zero experience in normal politicking (hell that's part of why she fled to a dwarf karak warzone) and definitely does not have firm grounding in Asur and Druchi geopolitics to know all the many many many levers or plots that could be used by the latter to screw over the former and Empire in a way that leaves both worse off and them better off.

Click to shrink...

I don't think that hypothetical is likely, because the command phrases are not strings of gibberish, they are actual words and phrases in Anoqeyån and by studying the phrase we should be able to understand its purpose and effect. The problem is that we don't know which words and phrases have been coded into the Waystones.

 

[K von Carstein]

I'm not begrudging his desire for revenge, but considering his general demeanour combined with Marrisith being relieved that he didn't come see her tells me something's wrong. Elves don't use the word "murder" lightly.

Click to shrink...

Did Hatalah showed a propensity for murder in other interactions? I think judging him that harshly on such thin grounds is a bit unfair. And him using murder still doesn't sound like that big of a deal. Him wanting to murder a servant of Morathi doesn't make him look particularly bad in my eyes.

Ordinary elf wizards might be marginally more skilled in certain aspects or have some different procedures but it is unlikely Mathilde would learn a lot when working on her own spell.

Click to shrink...

Ordinary elf wizards may still have centuries of practice on us. I think it's fairly probable they can teach us a lot while formalising the spell.