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The Asur want the Empire to succeed in that the Old World's problems are less likely to become the Asur's problems if they do. Marienburg lets them exert influence over the Old World and suppresses any naval ambitions the Empire might have, that could theoretically trouble the Asur on the high seas. So, probably?
I'm pretty sure the Asur's main concern with the Old World is protecting the Waystones within it, and backing Marienburg against the Empire really doesn't help that.

I don't think they're real politiking. I think they're just being incompetent, and a couple sub factions of Asur are misjudging unwisely (because greed/ they live there and like it), because they've shown themselves to be terrible at managing humans a couple times before in the past.
 
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But I am grateful that you have pointed me to your source, and I apologise for strongly implying that you are being intentionally dishonest as to what Mathilde's position on who it was that blew up those ships were.

Apology accepted, its cool.

your general point of... I'm not sure tbh? "Siccing the Drucci on Marienberg is a good thing to do"?

Eh, I'd say my point is that the Asur suck and taken action to fuck with Asur is nice. Mainly though I'd want to pull our price for cooperation with the Druchi involving them getting us dawi artifacts from the Asur like the Cloak of Beards.
 
I mean I get your point and I don't disagree.

But also, semi-relevant confession time: How should I put this? I don't mind the existence of the Cloak of Beard (on a fictional, writing level) but I have never been particularly pleased by the note that the High Elves are still adding to it since the Dwarfs are being positively sanguine about it unless the beards they're taking are from Dawi Zharr or renegades or something.
Presumably any Dwarf Grudges in response are on the level of individuals or clans rather than the wider polity.

With the War of Vengeance that was the Phoenix King ordering the beard of the ambassador of the Karaz Ankor shaved, it's a Grudge for the whole Karaz Ankor in a way that some Caledorians ambushing a Dwarf trader and shaving him isn't. (Much like historical examples of ambassadors being harmed, such as the Mongols responding to their diplomats being killed with conquest and massacres)

(Along with it being noted that Thorgrim does his best to keep new Grudges from being added to the Great Book of Grudges)
 
I'm pretty sure the Asur's main concern with the Old World is protecting the Waystones within it, and backing Marienburg against the Empire really doesn't help that.

I don't think they're real politiking. I think they're just being incompetent, and a couple sub factions of Asur are misjudging unwisely, because they've shown themselves to be terrible at managing humans a couple times before in the past.
Oh they absolutely care about the Waystones, but as far as diplomacy goes it doesn't really matter. The Empire aren't going to start messing with the Waystones no matter how angry they are with the Asur, they don't want to be drowning in demons. The Empire could hypothetically go to war with Ulthuan and still wouldn't break them, unless they'd fallen to Chaos. (NOTE: Do not get into a war with a global superpower.)

Of course if they find out we are messing with the Waystones, all bets are off, hence the massive bribes they'd start throwing our way to stop.
 
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Oh they absolutely care about the Waystones, but as far as diplomacy goes it doesn't really matter. The Empire aren't going to start messing with the Waystones no matter how angry they are with the Asur, they don't want to be drowning in demons. The Empire could hypothetically go to war with Ulthuan and still wouldn't break them, unless they'd fallen to Chaos. (NOTE: Do not get into a war with a global superpower.)

Of course if they find out we are messing with the Waystones, all nets are off, hence the massive bribes they'd start throwing our way to stop.
It does kind of matter, though, because the Empire cannot use Waystones, but it is in their interests to defend them from Greenskins and Chaos and Skaven, who all can.

Ergo, strong Empire = Much Safer Waystones. Empire has an actual civil war= Waystones are now (more) at risk.

And if they find out we're messing with the Waystones after, in their eyes, helping the Empire out a lot in recent times (for free!), they're going to be *pissed*.
 
Feel like noting that 6th edition Empire army book has a personal letter from him where he says he's returning to Ulthuan with the full intention of staying.
It doesn't actually outright say he's intending to stay, although it strongly implies it. It's also a letter written to Teclis' boss, so I'm not sure how truthful it's supposed to be.

Mainly though I'd want to pull our price for cooperation with the Druchi involving them getting us dawi artifacts from the Asur like the Cloak of Beards.
You want to get teh Druchii to perform a raid on an enemy that is actually capable of fighting back, to retrieve an artifact Mathilde doesn't know exists and has no way of knowing the location of?
 
You want to get teh Druchii to perform a raid on an enemy that is actually capable of fighting back, to retrieve an artifact Mathilde doesn't know exists and has no way of knowing the location of?

The Druchi raid and assassinate them all the time.

How would Mathilde have no knowledge of the Cloak of Beards? Asur have been boasting about it for a while along with gaining new material for it.
 
1. Eh, I'd say my point is that the Asur suck and taken action to fuck with Asur is nice. Mainly though I'd want to pull our price for cooperation with the 2. Druchi involving them getting us dawi artifacts from the Asur like the Cloak of Beards.
1. I think that's petty and a poor use of time/effort.
2. I don't see happening in practical terms, and I am utterly opposed to doing the amount of things that would cause the Druchi to try and get Dawi artefacts considering the varying levels of cost linked to various levels of cooperation with the Druchi.

I am grateful that you laid out the sort of thing you are hoping the thread try to have Mathilde achieve.
 
It does kind of matter, though, because the Empire cannot use Waystones, but it is in their interests to defend them from Greenskins and Chaos and Skaven, who all can.

Ergo, strong Empire = Much Safer Waystones. Empire has an actual civil war= Waystones are now (more) at risk.

And if they find out we're messing with the Waystones after, in their eyes, helping the Empire out a lot in recent times (for free!), they're going to be *pissed*.
Whilst technically true, to the best of my knowledge they have defended the Empire from Greenskins and Skaven exactly zero times, and sent 3 wizards to defend against Chaos once - and it's a matter of open debate if they sent them at all, or if Teclis went on his own initiative. Either way, it clearly doesn't seem to be affecting their decision making.
 
Whilst technically true, to the best of my knowledge they have defended the Empire from Greenskins and Skaven exactly zero times, and sent 3 wizards to defend against Chaos once - and it's a matter of open debate if they sent them at all, or if Teclis went on his own initiative. Either way, it clearly doesn't seem to be affecting their decision making.
So they are real politicking, incompetently.
Bloody hell. No wonder they don't have human allies…
 
Tiranoc, I think.
Those ones still use their Chariots in battle as mobile artillery platforms/ shock cav, in the age of actual cavalry, that's how much they liked wheeled vehicles.
 
I mean, am I missing something? I can't remember if their support for Marienburg amounted to that much? Is there a list of what they've given to Marienburg?
It's really the bit where they had Wizards throwing spells at Empire troops trying to retake it, and the threat of them doing so again. It's locked the Empire out of the naval game entirely, because even when they tried to build replacement ports elsewhere Marienburg went and put a stop to that right quick.

This Boney post sums up how Marienburg are a problem, and without Asur support they absolutely would not have the military power to fend off an invasion:
The thing about the Druchii is they're very very bad news if you live on a coastline or try to travel by sea, but are almost never a concern if you don't. So, here's Point One of modern Empire Naval Policy:

Fuck Marienburg.

How much coastline does the Empire have? Less than any non-Dwarven polity on the planet. Why? Because Marienburg took two thirds of the coastline when it seceded. See Point One.

How many significant towns does the Empire have on that coastline? Only one. Why? Because Marienburg sabotaged the other two towns that the Empire tried to establish on it. See Point One.

Is that one town at all vulnerable? No, because half the fleet is based there because there's only two places in the Empire that can actually maintain seagoing vessels any more because most of that infrastructure was in Marienburg. See Point One.

How much naval force projection does the Empire try to do? Not much, because the other half of the fleet is based in Altdorf and has to pay ruinous tolls to get out to sea. See Point One.

How much naval trade does the Empire try to do? See above, and then see Point One.

So, do the Druchii connect to the Empire's foreign policy in any other way? Well, they're infamously opposed to the Asur, whose involvement in the Old World involves sending three dudes to protect the Old World against the Everchosen and then sending a fuckload more dudes to help slaughter an Imperial Army in the Battle of Grootscher Marsh to support Marienburg's secession. See Point One.

Which is particularly prominent in a lot of minds currently, because the only reason Marienburg feels confident to threaten a full blockade of the Empire in response to the canals is because of the continued protection of the Asur. Which also means that in a lot of minds right now, Point One of Empire Naval Policy is echoing very loudly.

Which means that right now a concussed toddler could make major diplomatic inroads on behalf of Naggaroth if you could teach it to reliably babble those five syllables in the correct order.
 
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Okay, holy shit which one is that.
Only bits on Tiranoc is that they use chariots, which is the most notable thing about them, and that they had a lovely kingdom that was heavily scarred by the Sundering, second only to Nagarythe in terms of damage. They're also dark and bitter, but since the Nagarythians take the cake on that concept they're left in the dust and all they have are Chariots.

One of my favorite characters as a concept is Eldyra, Princess of Tiranoc. Unfortunately she's underutilised.
 
Asur have been boasting about it for a while
Nuh...no? Like.

"To many High Elves the Cloak of Beards is a relic of an unhappy hour. But, for a few, notably those whose ancestors fought in Caledor's final battle against Gotrek Starbreaker, it is a valued reminder of the perfidiousness of Dwarfs." 8ed High Elves page 65.

Most of the Asur are not happy about it.
Presumably any Dwarf Grudges in response are on the level of individuals or clans rather than the wider polity.

With the War of Vengeance that was the Phoenix King ordering the beard of the ambassador of the Karaz Ankor shaved, it's a Grudge for the whole Karaz Ankor in a way that some Caledorians ambushing a Dwarf trader and shaving him isn't. (Much like historical examples of ambassadors being harmed, such as the Mongols responding to their diplomats being killed with conquest and massacres)

(Along with it being noted that Thorgrim does his best to keep new Grudges from being added to the Great Book of Grudges)
Or they make sure to fight the sort of people that even the Karaz Ankor has ample reason not to care if they should just so happen to disappear. I imagine they must exist, though what they'd look like I can't say.

On a different note, you imagine the Dwarfs are mad about the Pendant of Vengeance too?
 
Nuh...no? Like.

"To many High Elves the Cloak of Beards is a relic of an unhappy hour. But, for a few, notably those whose ancestors fought in Caledor's final battle against Gotrek Starbreaker, it is a valued reminder of the perfidiousness of Dwarfs." 8ed High Elves page 65.

Most of the Asur are not happy about it.

Or they make sure to fight the sort of people that even the Karaz Ankor has ample reason not to care if they should just so happen to disappear. I imagine they must exist, though what they'd look like I can't say.

On a different note, you imagine the Dwarfs are mad about the Pendant of Vengeance too?
If an Elf came by with it and it resulted in the destruction of an Anvil of Doom they'd probably be downright furious, but I don't think the existence of it would be as much of an afront as the Cloak of Beards.
 
Delayed reactions.

Why Norsca, the shattered remnants of another prison?
This is actually the bit I'm most curious about. Norsca was another prison? Who were the wardens? The prisoners?

"You have my word." To Dwarves, that's ironclad. To you, it means that if you feel the information needs to be shared, the consideration that needs to be made is the amount of damage one Slayer from a fallen Dwarfhold can do to your good name. But he doesn't know that, nor does he need to. Besides, he wants to talk. You can see it whirling inside of his guts, sitting as unsoundly as a halfpenny pie.

Eh, just write it in our personal notes. If someone comes along and reads them after we die ... not our fault, we didn't tell no one.

It wasn't until you'd shared this impression with Panoramia that she pointed out what you should have spotted immediately: that though you've been comparing her to Panoramia, Tochter is actually a lot like you. You're not sure whether to take this as reassurance or as a reason for further caution.

Panoramia: Totcher is a lot like you.

Mathilde: I immediately don't touch this person and am plotting his death. If there's one person I don't trust, it's someone whose mostly like me. I know how dangerous I am after all.
Then, just as the Four and their allies arrived for the Final Battle, Flaming Phoenix, whom all had thought dead, returned from atop His Gleaming Pyramid, and He smote about Him.

You know, I'm wondering what the Pyramid is now. I know that Asuryan has always had that as part of it's myth, but, like, Elves don't super do pyramids outside of Asuryan's shrine? Where does that come from? Lizardmen/old one carryover seems like an obvious conclusion to draw, but I wonder what it is beyond that, in the warp I mean, not the one in Ulthuan. Is that the Diamond Throne the wiki says Asuryan has? What it's meaning, metaphorically/symbolically. Does it do anything, have any special traits? What's inside of it. Etc, etc.

This line of thinking would imply that there are Norse Dwarf Refugees floating around somewhere. If they didn't go east, across the ice to Karag Dum, where did they go?

A line of questioning made yet more open ended by the fact that The Norsican settlement we visited had the look of at once time being a Dwarven Port of all things. If memory serves me well.
Well, if they thought the south had fallen ...... maybe they crossed the ocean to follow the Dawi who went to Lustria?
 
I mean, am I missing something? I can't remember if their support for Marienburg amounted to that much? Is there a list of what they've given to Marienburg?

They sent or had an archmage in residence during the Vampire Wars who melted one of the Counts' undead army when they tried to take the city, and elven wizards helped defend Marienberg when the Empire reneged on the independence agreement and tried to reconquer them.

Those elven wizards may simply have been inhabitants of Sith Rionnasc'namishathir with their own personal reasons to protect their home, if they thought it was threatened, or their friends, neighbours, and/or business partners who live across the canal from them. They weren't necessarily acting on behalf of Ulthuan itself, just their own agency.
 
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The Druchi raid and assassinate them all the time.

How would Mathilde have no knowledge of the Cloak of Beards? Asur have been boasting about it for a while along with gaining new material for it.
Mathilde has talked to two Asur ever. The Cloak never came up. As far as I can tell you've come up with them boasting about the Cloak. That's not mentioned in any of the descriptions of it, and I can't find a Boney quote saying they do so.

The Druchii typically raid Nagarythe, a nearly depopulated Kingdom with a military built around guerilla fighting. The Cloak is most likely to be in Caledor, land of many Dragons and some of the finest cavalry in the world. Also, even if the Druchii do raid more of Ulthuan. the Cloak is likely to be in an actual fortified location. Which the Druchii definitely don't raid, because raids involve hitting lightly defended targets. That's why they're raids and not invasions.

Only bits on Tiranoc is that they use chariots, which is the most notable thing about them, and that they had a lovely kingdom that was heavily scarred by the Sundering, second only to Nagarythe in terms of damage. They're also dark and bitter, but since the Nagarythians take the cake on that concept they're left in the dust and all they have are Chariots.

One of my favorite characters as a concept is Eldyra, Princess of Tiranoc. Unfortunately she's underutilised.
Tiranoc is best characterised as the land of faded glory IMO. Where Nagarythe wants vengeance and will go to any lengths in pursuit of that vengeance, Tiranoc wants to return to a time when they were powerful and respected. They also want vengeance, but like, half of Ulthuan wants vengeance. Nagarythe is characterised by the horrible things they do for that goal, not by having it.

You know, I'm wondering what the Pyramid is now. I know that Asuryan has always had that as part of it's myth, but, like, Elves don't super do pyramids outside of Asuryan's shrine? Where does that come from? Lizardmen/old one carryover seems like an obvious conclusion to draw, but I wonder what it is beyond that, in the warp I mean, not the one in Ulthuan. Is that the Diamond Throne the wiki says Asuryan has? What it's meaning, metaphorically/symbolically. Does it do anything, have any special traits? What's inside of it. Etc, etc.
According to Blood of Aenarion, the Elves built the Shrine after the patterns of the Slann. It even throws in speculation that the Slann were the ones who contacted Asuryan first and then taught his worship to the Elves. Which might be a hint towards End Times stuff actually.
 
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I'm not sure he's chill enough for that. The way he specifically used the word "murder" sends red flags. He didn't use "kill", he used "murder".

I think the implication is that he was using the Khainite word for it. I'm starting to get a feel why Marrisith doesn't seem to like her uncle much.
What do you mean by that?

Just laying it out there now, I will not cast a vote in this quest to work with the Druchii.
Same for me. But tricking them? If it's safe enough, I'd vote for it. Especially if we sell them to the Asurs.

but we're being given an opportunity for them to stop seeing the Empire as a hostile nation, and as a political and economical ally.
They don't see as people at all, so I don't think it would be possible. They're also sadistical slavers who worship a god of murder, so personally I hate the idea of allying with them.

I'm pretty sure Boney's said in the past that Shadow Warriors are guerrilla fighters, not assassins. And they wouldn't necessarily serve all that well in the role.
Even if they're mostly guérilla fighters, there's definitely a few assassins in the bunch. That said, I doubt the PK would try to assassinate us outright.

'Nightfall' By Blind Guardian Elves.
What's that?

Does that mean the empire is a shield of civilization too because they protect the waystones keeping the vortex alive?
Well, yeah. Smaller than the Asurs, but very much a shield.

Usually Warhammer fans are ridiculously paranoid about Chaos, but I guess it makes sense they'd be unreasonable about Druchii too.
Concerning Choas, it's not paranoia if there's really evil gods spreading memetic hazards around and trying to destroy the world.
 
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What do you mean by that?
People who venerate Khaine in particular tend to not be some of the more well adjusted individuals. He uses murder instead of kill and explicitly mentions the fun factor when it comes to killing. He enjoys murder. I don't think I need to clarify more than that to give you the idea of why Marrisith, a political leader, wouldn't like that.
 
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