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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Shaper47 said:
Marienburges forces are basically morally evil bandits.

What did you think Marienburgs forces are doing to those they are striking at in the Empire if not evil bandit things?
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Do all bandits univerally rape? Is it somehow a requirement of banditry?
If so I've never heard of it.

I thought theft by force... that alone would be the only consistent denominator amongst such a broad descriptor.
Also are they all evil? Like with a capital e?

Surely some of them either A: are there at gunpoint or B: Are patriots for marienburg with limited targets.(Not that I think thats good but I'd be shocked if most of them did not lived by codes even if not great ones) Obviously, horrendous sociopathic opportunist are liable to be involved as well but I can't just assume the worst of everyone involved in any such broad acts.

Pretty sure most of them would have lives outside of banditry too, because it's very hard to maintain that long term full time.

Hell, what evidence do we have that would suggest more than one band even was interested in sinking whole ships rather than the more lucrative act of trying to ransom them or more directly rob them?
If there was such evidence I apologize for missing it.

EDITed for clarity.
 
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SITB said:
The Empire isn't ruled by an immortal supreme dictator :V. Hell, the Ghrond delegation doesn't even have the backing of its own ruler; Ylrishen couldn't even promise that the Druuchi will stop raiding the empire. They don't have anywhere near the level of influence they insinuate they do.
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The Sorceress is—at worst—three steps removed from Morathi, which as also how many steps removed Anton is from Lutipold, and one step closer than we are from the Emperor.
 
Usually Warhammer fans are ridiculously paranoid about Chaos, but I guess it makes sense they'd be unreasonable about Druchii too.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
So you're the "sane" one with clear vision, and I'm what? Insane? For wanting to steal from the people you want to kill? Jesus, are you even listening to yourself. You're so caught up in this zero tolerance mentality it's impossible to talk to you.
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No you are a player behind the screen, anyone legitimately trying to deal with them IC knowing what they are and who they asnwer to is either insane or hopelessly naive. Secondly it is the Druchi. In an ideal world you would not have to deal with them at all, barring that we can ignore this lot and kill the next lot of Druchi we see during our Druchi killing vacation. Remember that.... yeah I am not hearing amyone arguing about how we could not kill the poor misunderstood dark elf raiders, all they want is a good life for themselves, with plenty of sacrifices and slaves.

But you are right I do have a zero tolerance policy towards murderous slavers who are complicit in trying to end the world for their Supreme Leader's ego. If that makes me a bad person bring on the black hat, I'd like one with a feather please. :V
 
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The idea of somehow tricking the Druchii isn't completely terrible, certainly not as bad as the idea of actually working with them. The only thing more pleasing to Ranald than stabbing a slaver is stabbing a slaver in the back, after all. But the coin is not all-powerful, having it isn't an instant 'I win at diplomacy' button. One big reason the coin was so effective against Qrech was that the limits of Qrech's world were the walls of his prison. We could tell him anything and he would have no way to test the truth of our words, and thanks to the coin he would believe us without question. Things will not be so simple if we try and trick the Druchii (or Ulthuan).

If we are lying to a diplomat, the fact that the diplomat believes us fully is of limited value. At the end of a day said diplomat will go back to their superiors, which will only believe that their representative has been convinced by Lady Magister Weber. They would not be magically inclined to believe our lies and could believe that their representative was tricked, or that they have turned traitor, depending on the nature and boldness of our lies. And both the diplomats and their superiors could believe that we are flat out wrong, and with the ability to test things in the real world provably false information could eventually be proven to be false. If you're thinking that this ends with Mathilde having the keyphrases that connect Waystones you're due for a disappointment, because for that to happen our lies will travel up very far up the chain of command - pretty much to the very top - and those that will listen to our lies will be very far removed from the effects of the coin. At that point we're back to good old bluffing, and if you want to play poker with Morathi be my guest but I'm going to vote against that.

The best kind of lies to tell in this case would be those lies that are limited in scope enough that the people we are talking to will have authority to act on them on their own, and that deal only with our intentions or with facts that are likely to be well known to us (the working of the Colleges, things Mathilde saw with her own eyes etc). "We wish to work with you" is ok, "I wish to work with you personally" might be better. "I saw X at Y location" might work, especially if getting to Y is hard and it will take some time for the Druchii to find that we are full of shit. This is workable, we could get some mileage out of it, but there are still a lot of reasons to be wary. What will our allies think of this? How could we safely use whatever the Druchii give us? Are all pro-contact Major Houses in favour of dealing with the Druchii, and if not will cozying up to them piss them off? Perhaps most crucially, how sure are we that our little trick will have the desired effects? Mathilde isn't an expert on either Druchii or Asur diplomacy, and she could easily drop the ball here. It isn't impossible to thread the needle and walk away with something, but I think we have better and less risky uses for our time and our coin.
 
SITB said:
The Empire isn't ruled by an immortal supreme dictator :V. Hell, the Ghrond delegation doesn't even have the backing of its own ruler; Ylrishen couldn't even promise that the Druuchi will stop raiding the empire. They don't have anywhere near the level of influence they insinuate they do.
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Yes, just like Elector count of Averland cannot deal on behalf of Middenland.

Malekith is the supreme ruler, and when he calls everyone answers, but the Upper crust and management still has a great deal of freedom to act.
 
Chlof said:
Being empowered to represent the empire at one gathering as the highest ranked empire official in Laurelorn at the time does give her unilateral power to negotiate on the behalf of the empire with Ulthuan.
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Please reread the quote; it literally specifies that we have blanket permission granted to us upon becoming Lady Magister and that that extends to the current situation, not the other way around. I'm not sure how much clearer it could possibly be.
 
Geedubs said:
Usually Warhammer fans are ridiculously paranoid about Chaos, but I guess it makes sense they'd be unreasonable about Druchii too.
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Talking to the Dark Elves is fine. That's what we made Language for.
Any honest deals with the Dark Elves is automatically deeply suspect and likely unwise for a multitude of factors.
Actual well meaning economic relations breaks the bloody bank of utter nonsense.

And finally, even if none of it comes to anything, leaning on the Druuchi to unnerve the Asur is honestly one fo the scummiest examples of real politik I've ever heard of.

Chaos and Skaven should be fought wherever we find them, and by that logic, so should the DE.
 
Geedubs said:
Usually Warhammer fans are ridiculously paranoid about Chaos, but I guess it makes sense they'd be unreasonable about Druchii too.
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Hey, this is completely believable for the quest! I fully believe a Grey Magister would be this paranoid. Of course, It's also completely ridiculous. But at least it's in character! :V
BurnNote said:
This true, but I don't think Mathilde is all that well suited to doing it.
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We have heroic tier intrigue. If that one other Lord Magister can do it, Mathilde can too! Be the change you want to see in the world, fuck over the Druuchi!

Ultimately, I don't think Boney would introduce this quest path if we weren't able to play around in the mud.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
Please reread the quote; it literally specifies that we have blanket permission granted to us upon becoming Lady Magister and that that extends to the current situation, not the other way around. I'm not sure how much clearer it could possibly be.
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I don't know what to tell you dude, I just think you're wildly misinterpreting what that quote implies.
 
So, from my perspective there are three problems with making deals with the Druchii, and a few options that might bypass that.

1) The Druchii society is monstrously evil in a way that few other factions can match
2) The Druchii (and also notably the Asur, though the Eonair seem somehow to have the aesthetic 'elfiness' here but not the incredibly problematic bits) do not make agreements in the way that Humans or Halflings do; like Dwarves, they are 'built different', but unlike Dwarves we don't have the advantage of a friendly guide and friendly counterparties
3) A level of baseline treacherousness that, while we can definitely cope with it (as a Grey Lord Magister), would require proactive effort (and thus some combination of circumstance, resource, and AP) to manage

So, my suggested approach is similar to how we deal with the Skaven, who match all three points. The Empire was able to develop a shared understanding with the Skaven, and also we have an individual Skaven that we have managed to deal with quite well. I think that we could attempt either or both of those things with the Druchii - like, hey, we aren't allied or anything, but if you steer us into your rivals and we butcher them and we pay you a finder's fee from the salvage and your rivals also lose out, well, you can say that's just you using us as a catspaw to attack your rivals and we can say that's just us having some paid informants in the Druchii. Or alternatively, hey, you cool individual Druchii who we just saw get verbally eviscerated for how your teachers are sabotaging you, how would you like to come over to this place away from the schemes of Naggaroth and spend the time learning properly without being sabotaged and without having to watch your back? And while you are here, we can of course figure some things out together...
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
The Sorceress is—at worst—three steps removed from Morathi, which as also how many steps removed Anton is from Lutipold, and one step closer than we are from the Emperor.
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Harathi straight out said that the reason he doesn't murder Myrielh right here and there is because Morathi doesn't know about it and thus he can't kill Myrielh to slight Morathi. She doesn't have any real power in Ghrond that isn't granted by her mistress, which is itself limited because Morathi is the supreme ruler of Ghrond.

pucflek said:
Yes, just like Elector count of Averland cannot deal on behalf of Middenland.

Malekith is the supreme ruler, and when he calls everyone answers, but the Upper crust and management still has a great deal of freedom to act.
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But we aren't dealing with elector counts, we are dealing with a Druuchi delegation that goes behind the backs of Malekith and Morathi and can't even muster the ability to promise to stop raiding the empire's coast if we deal with them. Ylrishen only promised that she will feed us intel to kill their competitors if we sign in with them, that's not the action of the upper crust, it's the actions of middle management trying to bamboozle dumb humans who know jack shit about inner Naggaroth politics.
 
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Chlof said:
I don't know what to tell you dude, I just think you're wildly misinterpreting what that quote implies.
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No, when someone is made a Lord Magister, they are given the trust and responsibility to make these sorts of decisions on behalf of the Emperor. Mathilde has the blanket authority to make negotiations with other nations. If she didn't, she wouldn't have her rank.

That's why they promoted Dragomas to Lord Magister, so that his peace treaty with Cathay would be valid in the eyes of imperial law. He was retroactively given the authority to that on his promotion.
 
flaviusb said:
So, my suggested approach is similar to how we deal with the Skaven, who match all three points. The Empire was able to develop a shared understanding with the Skaven, and also we have an individual Skaven that we have managed to deal with quite well. I think that we could attempt either or both of those things with the Druchii - like, hey, we aren't allied or anything, but if you steer us into your rivals and we butcher them and we pay you a finder's fee from the salvage and your rivals also lose out, well, you can say that's just you using us as a catspaw to attack your rivals and we can say that's just us having some paid informants in the Druchii. Or alternatively, hey, you cool individual Druchii who we just saw get verbally eviscerated for how your teachers are sabotaging you, how would you like to come over to this place away from the schemes of Naggaroth and spend the time learning properly without being sabotaged and without having to watch your back? And while you are here, we can of course figure some things out together...
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I agree up to the point where we try to manipulate the Druuchi on regular basis.
Bad idea there.
Real bad idea.

Your typical skaven leader and your typical DE leader is not comparable in competence and foresight.
 
SITB said:
Ylrishen only promised that she will feed us intel to kill their competitors if we sign in with them, that's not the action of the upper crust, it's the actions of middle management trying to bamboozle dumb humans who know jack shit about inner Naggaroth politics.
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That absolutely is the action of upper crust politicking and jockeying for better position against their rival. Like, again. this is like dealing with with polity equivalent of a Province. Or if you want more directly comparable example, Bretonnian Dukedom. Bretonnia has absolutist ruler who is technically in charge of everyone, but Pavarron still started like 4 wars, one of them even without King's say so.

We are dealing with representatives of three of those. Hag Graef, Clar Karond and Ghrond.

Like ultimately, i don't think we should align ourselves to goddamn slavers. But i am sure we can come up with some shallow deals that benefit us greatly. Being able to better secure our coastline, or rattle sabers at Marienburg (i don't think Druuchi would actually commit to cooperation of that level for something we are willing to give, but just the idea of the possibility!) would be great. Ultimately the idea is that we force Asur to contest the political goals of Druuchi here more, giving us an in with them.
 
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Shine said:
I agree up to the point where we try to manipulate the Druuchi on regular basis.
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I'm... not suggesting that? At all? Literally my point was that that would be AP hell unless we had the exact right combination of circumstances and resources? My suggestions were that the kinds of deal we could enter into would be the same as the kind that were entered into with the Skaven eg either we do something where us both getting what we want is functionally identical to us using the other as a catspaw or etc, or we get a lone Dark Elf somewhere that we can more or less put them in a box.

Edit: That is, I'm contrasting
- The deal the Empire has with all of Skavendom and also the deal that we have with our captive Skaven, which are good and work out well enough
with
- The kinds of deal that unscrupulous people in the Empire make with Skaven for assassinations, bombs, poisons, information, plots against their rivals, etc - which are bad and always end up working out badly
 
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flaviusb said:
My suggestions were that the kinds of deal we could enter into would be the same as the kind that were entered into with the Skaven eg either we do something where us both getting what we want is functionally identical to us using the other as a catspaw or etc, or we get a lone Dark Elf somewhere that we can more or less put them in a box.
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That's still risky, but it is a lot better.
Sorry, my bad.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
No, when someone is made a Lord Magister, they are given the trust and responsibility to make these sorts of decisions on behalf of the Emperor.
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"These sort of decisions" encompass situations that are uniquely within that Lord Magister's wheelhouse, because there is no one else to cover them. It is why Mathilde was consulted on the canal project by the chamberlain and why she was invited to the Silver Tower soirée over whichever middenland noble would have usually taken that responsibility. It does not give unilateral power over situations where there is a higher, more experienced authority which in the case of negotiations with Ulthuan and Marienburg over diplomatic ties the Chamberlain would definitely be.
 
Individual Druchi are... okay, they're not fine. They're very far from fine. A high ranking Dark Elf must have done things to chill the blood and scour the soul but they're not evil by nature. No-ones evil by nature. Well, maybe Greenskins. Though even then it might just be an urge to violence.

One of the saddest things i ever read, in Warhammer, was about a Dark Elf sorceress and a Commander who loved each other. Stuck in this horrendous culture where such a thing would be mocked at best and having no way out when all they really wanted was to live together peacefully. Malekiths crimes against the world, in general, are legion but it does seem he really inflicts the worst upon his own followers.

In anycase. Yes. If you can save individual Dark Elves. Go for it. It's just, y'know, being sure they're really trying to be saved.
 
Voikirium said:
I also mostly don't...like. I don't have any particular problem with the idea that for the average Dwarf, the Phoenix Crown means that the war is over but I just straight up do not buy that there are no Dwarfs, or indeed groups of dwarfs, still mad about it who have some real ideas.
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That's true, but like, that's also true among the High Elves (see- Cloak of Beards).

Every faction keeps grudges, the Dark Elves whole reason for being is a grudge. The Dwarfs just keep to them stronger and write them down.
 
Chlof said:
"These sort of decisions" encompass situations that are uniquely within that Lord Magister's wheelhouse, because there is no one else to cover them. It is why Mathilde was consulted on the canal project by the chamberlain and why she was invited to the Silver Tower soirée over whichever middenland noble would have usually taken that responsibility. It does not give unilateral power over situations where there is a higher, more experienced authority which in the case of negotiations with Ulthuan and Marienburg over diplomatic ties the Chamberlain would definitely be.
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I daresay Mathilde could liaise with the Chamberlain on running the scam, if that's what you're worried about? Your initial objection was that Mathilde wasn't empowered to be the Empire's representative at all and the Asur would laugh her out of the room for being the one to deliver the Empire's position; you seem to have shifted to not being allowed to unilaterally decide Empire foreign policy with no input.

Whilst she is in fact technically allowed to do so, it'd be pretty hard to sell to the Asur if the next day they rolled up to the Chamberlain's office and he had no clue what they were talking about, and Mathilde isn't stupid enough to leave him out of the loop. Obviously if they had any input, up to and including "no, don't do that", we'd take it.
 
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