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"Are they as fierce on land as they are at sea?" - Asking about "the other kind of dwarves"

Stone Dwarves fight on land, Chaos Dwarves fight on sea. I don't think he knows the difference between the two. At least, that's how I read it, I wasn't thinking about Barrak Varr, and it is a bit confusing grammatically.
The conversation was about Dawi Zharr (that's literally Fire Dwarfs in Khazalid) then he asked about 'the other kind'.

He's only fought them at sea because he's a pirate and raider and the only Karak he could possibly hit is Barak Varr, which he hasn't. So he's only fought them at sea.
 
You comply, carefully editing out the true purpose of the voyage and the company you had, which still leaves a fairly gripping yarn of battling Daemons, raiding Skaven lairs, visiting Uzkulak, bartering with Kurgan, and duelling Norscans. By the time your reimagined caravan has reached Kislev once more you've attracted quite a crowd, and you wrap it up by lingering regretfully on you having to decide against attempting to purloin a mammoth from the Norscans. Maktig shakes his head in amazement. "By Mathlann, you're wasted here on land. Join my ship and I'll pay you a Sorceress' share and you'll have a cabin all to yourself."

You take a moment to entertain the possibility before shaking your head. "My current job isn't one that can be just walked away from."

"So I figured, but I had to try. Say, you ever encountered the other kind of Dwarves? The Stone Dwarves?"

You smile. "A time or two."

"Are they as fierce on land as they are at sea?"

"From what I understand, they're rather out of their element at sea, so I'd say even more so."

"That must be quite a story," he says promptingly.

You take a breath and begin to weave together and tell a suitable yarn on the fly.

"Are they as fierce on land as they are at sea?" - Asking about "the other kind of dwarves"

Stone Dwarves fight on land, Chaos Dwarves fight on sea. I don't think he knows the difference between the two. At least, that's how I read it, I wasn't thinking about Barrak Varr, and it is a bit confusing grammatically.
the previous paragraph mathlide is talking about the chaos dwarfs. Just after that he then says ""So I figured, but I had to try. Say, you ever encountered the other kind of Dwarves? The Stone Dwarves?" SInce we had just talked about the chaos dwarves and he says stone dwarves the comingly reffered name to them he is absolutely referring to the karak ankor dwarves

edit: ninjaed
 
"Are they as fierce on land as they are at sea?" - Asking about "the other kind of dwarves"

Stone Dwarves fight on land, Chaos Dwarves fight on sea. I don't think he knows the difference between the two. At least, that's how I read it, I wasn't thinking about Barrak Varr, and it is a bit confusing grammatically.
He can differentiate between the two, he literally does it in the same conversation you are quoting

Here's him acknowledging the Chaos Dwarves
"Have you ever been to sea?" he asks, in a voice with only the most battered shred of hope remaining in it. You get the impression he's asked that question quite a lot already, and received the same answer every time.

You open your mouth to dash his hopes, then remember something. "Once, technically. Over the Frozen Sea."

"Oh? Visiting the Fire Dwarves?"

Here's him talking about the Dwarves beside the Empire
"So I figured, but I had to try. Say, you ever encountered the other kind of Dwarves? The Stone Dwarves?"

You smile. "A time or two."

"Are they as fierce on land as they are at sea?"
The other kind of Dwarves
Not the Fire Dwarves to the East
 
It's okay to condemn the Druchii for their past atrocities—because it's pretty horrific—but we're being given an opportunity for them to stop seeing the Empire as a hostile nation, and as a political and economical ally. Every crime committed against the Empire by the Dark Elves is comparable to a crime committed by one of its neighbours—Bretonnia is constantly at war with the Empire, Kislev and Ostermark have overlapping land claims that regularly break out into violence, there's a canon story about an Imperial wizard nuking a Tilean stronghold. For fucks sake, the Eonir genocided half of a human province, and that's still in living memory. The refugees from that slaughter live in the same mountain we do.

We can't change the Dark Elves by declaring war on them—but we can make it more profitable for them to trade with us rather than raid. And if they establish a formal presence with us, then what is to stop them from doing that with Kislev, or Bretonnia?
Please stop dehumanising the Dark Elves. They have an awful, twisted society, but they are also people, capable of the full range of expression and emotion as anyone else. They are not monsters, they simply have done monstrous things, same as every other nation we work with, and are now offering to stop that, in exchange for the benefits of a working partnership.



Because they stand to profit. They are not stupid, they are not going to self destruct simply to hurt other people. And, goblin metaphor notwithstanding, all three of them spoke to Mathilde as an equal in negotiation. None of them were condescending.

My dude, history is absolutely fucking replete with people claiming "Of course war won't happen, it'd be too stupid and counterproductive from an economic standpoint!" and "We can alter their morals with economically beneficial trade!" completely and utterly blowing up in people's faces. I will avoid mentioning examples within easy living memory and instead point to the entirety of the prelude to World War 1. There were giant swaths of papers and claims that obviously no one in Europe would be stupid enough to start a war, there's so much money to be made now and so much would be lost in a proper industrialized war! WW1 still happened. And the claims of how devastating it would be were 100% correct but did nothing to stop the pride and ego of nationalistic revanchist leadership.

Somehow I think the state with an eternal dictator that's been trying to claim 'his' throne for the past few thousand years and was willing to destroy the Vortex in a hissy fit might have some revanchist and spiteful leanings.

It's not actively wielding Dhar, it's actively destroying dhar.

Okay that's a very very good point. But I still say small scale destruction of warpstone and dhar would be a good idea.

Also and this is pretty important, the Waystones use Dhar, probably a good idea for us to have a quick way to disperse dhar when our prototype rolls a Nat 1 and starts creating a dhar vortex.

Uh no. You are using dhar to make dhar contained in a stable Dhar matrix to stop being stable and just blow up. Can't find it right now, but Boney said using it on a zombie would result no zombie and a patch of dhar infused earth, not no dhar. Its just that as shitty as the latter is, the former tends to be worse.
 
Yeah, that makes total sense. I probably just misread it.

I still think grammatically "Are they as fierce on land as they are at sea?" right after changing the subject to a different kind of dwarf implies he's asking about the differences in fire vs stone Dwarves, but I'm not a grammar expert and Barrak Varr makes more sense in-world.
 
"Are they as fierce on land as they are at sea?" - Asking about "the other kind of Dwarves", meaning "on sea" is not stone dwarves

Stone Dwarves fight on land, Chaos Dwarves fight on sea. I don't think he knows the difference between the two. At least, that's how I read it, I wasn't thinking about Barrak Varr, and it is a bit confusing grammatically.
it was plenty clear to me. "Youve met the stone dwarves? are they as fierce on land as at sea?" its quite obvious that hes talking about the times hes murdered the friendly kind of dwarves for their cargo
 
Hmm, I see Laurelorn's play here.

By inviting the Druchii to the diplomatic table, it sends a message to Ulthuan - "do you want to get your own foot in?".
That the Druchii intel is untrusted does not matter, because it has created the following scenarios:
-Ulthuan offers no deal, We take the Druchii deal -> Ulthuan loses influence, Naggaroth gains influence, Waystone network in danger no matter what.

-Ulthuan offers no deal, We refuse the Druchii deal -> Waystone network in danger from blind experiments, they cannot make a deal to make us stop, because they'd have to deal with Laurelorn aligning with Druchii if they lean on the Empire to make Mathilde stop, and Naggaroth would be alert and ready to take advantage if they try to force the matter.

-Ulthuan offers a deal -> We get to next level negotiations where its now Ulthuan trying to make a deal to impose restrictions on what we get to play with while Naggaroth offers a suspect deal but one that we theoretically can take if Ulthuan's deal is too unfavorable.

Laurelorn and Mathilde's best position here is thus to be intererested but not eager for a deal. We want to make small transactions for verifiable lore, but we absolutely do not want to commit to Druchii joining the project in any shape or form.

Naggaroth's best position here meanwhile is to escalate the Marienburg situation while we talk, to weaken Ulthuan's bargaining position because they have to choose between their Marienburg interests and their Waystone interests, they benefit no matter what. Their first bits traded are unlikely to be straight up hazardous, these are elves and they play the long game, the most is that they'd give genuine information, but with the safeties left out as a test.

Ulthuan gets to choose between getting screwed on many things...or swallow their pride and recognize Laurelorn proper. Which still has them screwed in domestic politics, something the Druchii will exploit.
Its the timing of this that I find strange, if you are correct.

The longer the Asur don't know about the project, the more we groundwork we get done. I see what you have written, and it looks like it would be of greater benefit to Laurelorn to do this in a year or two

Unless of course we take your first paragraph and replace the waystone project with generic "stuff" for now (good trade deals with Uluthan and/or Naggaroth ect), and then maybe ante up to waystone knowledge if need be if we can't find the control/command information elsewhere.

Edit: this bit
. "Yourself, of course," she says, smiling mischievously at your look of shock. "Indirectly, that is. Even if they knew about it, I doubt they'd have any interest in the Waystone Project for its own sake. They have sufficient skill with Dhar to make use of all that is available, rather than needing infrastructure to whisk it away. But if Ulthuan has a foothold in the Old World, then they'll want one too, if only to keep tabs on what Ulthuan is up to and to watch for opportunities to interfere with it... but I digress. In truth, since we're working with humans, there was no reason for us not to also put out feelers to the two claimants of the Phoenix Throne to see if we can play them against each other. The board between them has been stalemated for so long that the introduction of even a minor piece is one that either could be tempted into paying handsomely for."
This meeting is not about the project, but we may (via the Queen) be able to make use of this conflict as a way of getting the Asur to tell us some command phrases, assuming we've come up with something that would need them, and look to be desperate enough to consider getting them form the shitty elves.

Personally I hope that we can use our vaycay + protector to get the edgy-elves put political pressure on whatever Asur knows the phrases.
 
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Could we get the dark elves to stop raiding Bretonnia and other allied human nations?
Absolutely not. They've been doing this shit for 6000 years, they're not gonna stop because some two bit sorceress who can't even wield Dhar asked nicely.

There is only one way to get them to stop and that's violence.
 
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The dark elves seem to be very mercantile, what could we offer the druichi that is more valuable than slaves. Well trade would help but it have to be something for one of the main powers to keep the rat if the druichi from raiding. I think we need to learn more about the druichi before we try to do something with the druichi diplomacy wise.
 
Absolutely not. They've been doing this shit for 6000 years, they're not gonna stop because some two bit sorceress who can't even wield Dhar asked nicely.

There is only one way to get them to stop and that's violence.
What about trade? Imperial policy with the Chaos-worshipping, slaving, raiding Norscans is to open up trade with them so they'd stop raiding and slaving.
 
What about trade? Imperial policy with the Chaos-worshipping, slaving, raiding Norscans is to open up trade with them so they'd stop raiding and slaving.
Norscans raid for survival.
Druxhii raid for fun
Edit: also that policy doesn't seem to be working
 
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There is only one interaction I support with druchii, and that is violent manumission.
Not making their lives easier so they maybe pretty please take fewer slaves.
 
The dark elves occupy the same space as the Norscans for me. Whatever policy's acceptable with the Norscans is acceptable with the dark elves.
 
She's calling him Prince because Malekith's claim on the Phoenix Throne rely on his birthright as Heir of Aenarion, so of course they have to extend the courtesy to Harathi as well
It's little details like that make Boney's quests feel so alive :)

Yeah. Malekith's claim just falls apart with anything more than a mild glance at it.
If it's hereditary then Morelion was the heir. Harathi is closer to being next in line than Malekith.

Anyway. No. You never, ever, make friends with Druchi nations. Anything of actual import will eventually draw the gaze of the King or his Mother and they are both bugfuck crazy. You can barely make friends with individual Druchi because any that aren't slave-endorsing horrors aren't really Druchi anymore.

You'd be safer trying to strike deals with the council of thirteen. At least the last time they came across a possibly world ending evil their leaders exploded their own heads to stop it.

The Druchi? Hey, let's try and destabilize the vortex because if I can't have it no one can.

Now i know the thread as a whole has a massive hate boner for the Asur. Too much time spent about Dawi who've got more interest in writing down slights than admitting their own wrongdoing plus, well. Bony needs a somewhat antagonist that isn't some variety of blood drinking end times worshiping lunacy but still.

Druchi? Why not work at summoning up a Lord Of Change. It'll have the knowledge on Waystones and it'd end about as good.

Also. As reading the comments has... irritated me.
You get the Cloak of Beards for the Phoenix Crown.
The War of Vengeance was a Druchi-inspired tragedy with both sides very much at fault.
Caledor the Second was a prick and the second best example of the issues with Hereditary rule after Malekith
Snorri Halfhand was equally a prick, heir of King Gotrek and the Dwarf who decided that razing elven cities before his fathers sent those ill-fated ambassadors was a good idea.
 
Why precisely does he know how fierce they are at sea?

Barak Varr has a massive navy and a trading network that spans all the way to the likes of Araby and Lustria
Captain Maktig has almost certainly had run ins with Dwarven Ironclads as he attempted to plunder them for their cargo and passengers


Chaos Dwarves would be the Fire Dwarves, not Stone Dwarves
:( I completely missed this clear reading. Nevermind my thoughts, then. I shall yet again remind myself that being personable does not mean much before really getting to know someone.
 
Edit: also that policy doesn't seem to be working
It does work. The Empire gets raided by tribes they don't trade with a lot more than the ones they do trade with. The Bjornlings in particularly usually trade rather than war with Bretonnia, Marienburg, and the Empire. The policy of trade has undoubtedly done more to save lives than your preferred policy of eternal, unceasing war would have.
 
Not just pretending to entertain?

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."

Also Harathi is the kind of person I'd love to talk to, he'd know so much! If he he's not older than the Chaos Incursion, he've grown around people that were, he'd know so much! @Boney could he be a social option?

Not unless there's some reason for him to be active and available. The Grey Lords rarely venture out of their clubhouse.

Did Harathi know Aenerion? Perhaps even Caledor Dragontamer?

No. Harathi was young during the Sundering, which was about 1700 years after Aenerion died.

I still can't decide if that fits with my mental image of Drycha or not. One one hand, her MO of hit-and-run attacks in service of a shadowy goal feels very intrigue-y. On the other, her personality of HATRED FOR ALL FLESHY THINGS feels less like it should suit an intrigue character.

Drycha spent a lot of years spying on the Elves to try to find justification for purging them all.

@Boney What insights has Mathilde picked up from the Druchii novels she picked up a while ago? I get that they designed to entertain and titillate rather than provide social commentary, but she's surely picked up an idea of what's considered desirable and a handful of social mores.

Lots of power fantasies and donut steels, and they seem to really be into the dynamic of someone who thinks they're a top being out-topped. They definitely respect double-dealing and treachery, but they also seem to place value on knowing when and where to apply it. The expectation is that people will go along with arrangements when they're beneficial or when they don't have the upper hand to renegotiate them, instead of just stabbing every back that might be in reach for the sake of stabbing backs. Betrayal as an exercise of ambition, rather than for its own sake.

The James Bond books would not be out of place in the Druchii corpus... though that might say more about the James Bond books than the Druchii.

Too bad Mathilde wasn't adept or confident enough to fire back with that; "Will you even throw in the knowledge of quarter-spinward turns on vortices, too? Oh boy!" Mathilde was too passive and cautious in these exchanges. I guess I can't blame her; her diplomacy isn't so hot, and she isn't used to diplomatic or intrigue things. (Well, she's used to intrigue things of a sort. Just... not social intrigue. She's not a socialite.)

She's also not treating the social encounter as something to win, she's trying to gather information and keep her options open.

@Boney In general, should we assume the Eonir have no books on groups and polities aside from themselves and Beastmen (from all the invasions) due to how isolated they've been and their information being outdated?

They have some books on outside groups, but the information within them would be only of value for understanding the Eonir and their circumstances. Their view of the Empire in most of them is along the lines of that it consists of two parts, Nordland and Middenland, and possibly some others, maybe? Their main hobbies are chopping down trees and failing to abide by the deals they make.
 
As to trading in any attempt to get them to stop raiding/slaving that isn't going to work.

The Druchi civilization is built in the manner Malekith wants. This is how he wants it to be and trying to actually change that just means him, eventually, coming down like a ton of rather spiky bricks on both the Druchi involved and the ones trying it.

Norscans, by contrast, don't really have that sort of centrally directed malice so individual tribes can be enticed towards something a bit more civilized even if the constant shit housery from the more chaos-aligned ones makes the going difficult.

Fundamentally if you want the Druchi to stop being the rotten cesspit ulcer on the world of civilization they are. You first need to kill Malekith/Morathi. Then you support the less bugfuck cities in the inevitable civil war and after all that you can start pushing them towards less slavery.
 
Could we get the dark elves to stop raiding Bretonnia and other allied human nations?
Getting the Druchii to stop raiding other countries would be entirely dependent on providing something to them that is more valuable than the raiding that they would be giving up
And I don't just mean some hypothetical perfect scale to weigh economic benefits on, Druichii have an entire culture built on raiding and slavery that'd take monumental amounts of political capital to shift
Not to mention there are practices that rely pretty much entirely on a steady supply of warm bodies with very few available substitutes, like blood sacrifices to Khaine and the Hag Queens rejuvinating blood bathes
So you're going to have to make one hell of a sales pitch

Slaves aren't just a commodity to the Druchii, they're an essential part of their way of life

And then you're gonna have to convince the Empire to pay that cost, which I'm going to just come out and say it, they aren't going to do
Because The Empire isn't a nation of altruists who will spend that kind of capital in the name of reducing the suffering of it's neighbors when those neighbors are also its competitors and potential enemies
Order factions will band together in the face of the Great Enemy sure, but absent the apocalypse they're quite happy to fight with one another or take advantage of openings and weakness like any competing nation states

So the answer is probably no

What about trade? Imperial policy with the Chaos-worshipping, slaving, raiding Norscans is to open up trade with them so they'd stop raiding and slaving.
I'm pretty sure the issue of scale prevents this from being a viable solution
Naggaroth is a lot more dependent on slavery than relatively small individual Norscan tribes
The Druchii are willing to approach the idea of cutting back on raiding the Empire specifically in large part because they barely raid it to begin with
 
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The Sorceress' Myrielh offer of Knowledge for Knowledge would be a lot more tempting if she wasn't undercut by Harathi's noting of sorceresses having their knowledge sabotaged.
 
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