Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
No mention of other races using a different scale to us. The Khorne champion had 30 marital, whilst Alkharad had 34 in learning.
your original statement was
We have one of the highest intrigue skills possible in the setting.
the quote we provied does not prove we have one of the highest possible intrugies in the setting maybe for humans we do but well for example the khrone champion. That was just one khrone champion it very likely the higher you go up in the heirchary the higher the marital is likely to be. We are dealing with a couple thousand year old being who in the cut throat intrigue riff environment of naggorth well they are likely to specalize in that a shit ton to stay alive and esspicaly to make there way up in the hierarchy. As I noted in the orignial thing what you quoted does not stop elves from having higher base stats on average and well more time equals more time to get those stats it only make sense that the elves would have a much higher baseline cap and baseline for there stats.
 
I am astonished that literally anyone is advocating for making deals with Druchii.

Put aside moral arguments completely. Druchii do not make mutually beneficial deals. They make traps. That's it. That's the sum total of their spectrum of diplomatic options.

If they are offering us something, it is because they see the opportunity to fuck us over exponentially harder later. Maybe by passing us poison pill 'knowledge' that fucks over our project. Maybe by using the opportunity to drive wedges between the factions of order, burning tentatively built bridges. (Hey, high elves, guess who's working for the Druchii now?) Maybe by seeding Dhar temptations among some of the many high casters we've gathered. Hell, maybe even just by using the diplomatic channel to conduct espionage deeper into the continent! Or more likely, all of the above and beyond!

People want to make deals with Morathi? Why don't we just sample Queen Mab's bread rolls and wish on a monkey's paw while we're at it?
 
One more thing on the Druchi that just occurred to me which I think should probably be mentioned: remember the Faith vs Knowledge vote on AV? The one where we decided that we valued Mathilde's faith in Ranald more than her love for knowledge. Well that same faith would indicate that the Druchi are about as close as you can get to the Devil himself for a Ranaldite, being that they are totalitarian slave traders driven by one elf's mad ambition for a crown.

This is why I want to take as much possible from them in terms of books. If we are to ever really fight their horror, we need to understand our enemy. If we can get litterature from them, we can get a window at their vulnerabilities and prepare if we ever want to fight or infiltrate them.
 
your original statement was

the quote we provied does not prove we have one of the highest possible intrugies in the setting maybe for humans we do but well for example the khrone champion. That was just one khrone champion it very likely the higher you go up in the heirchary the higher the marital is likely to be. We are dealing with a couple thousand year old being who in the cut throat intrigue riff environment of naggorth well they are likely to specalize in that a shit ton to stay alive and esspicaly to make there way up in the hierarchy. As I noted in the orignial thing what you quoted does not stop elves from having higher base stats on average and well more time equals more time to get those stats it only make sense that the elves would have a much higher baseline cap and baseline for there stats.

How much higher up the hierarchy do you think the Champion could get? He had multiple mutations, and the direct support and empowerment from his god. If he'd been any stronger, he would have been a demon prince.

And you've quoted nothing that proves that elves do have higher base stats, and high peak stats. 25-30 is heroic tier, we have 27 right now. That's on the upper end for any character, regardless of age or race. Hell, Alkharad only had five more points of learning than we do, despite being a centuries old necromancer from a bloodline that prioritises arcane knowledge.

No, I am sick of people dismissing Mathilde's achievements because the people she fought "weren't really that strong anyway".
 
This is why I want to take as much possible from them in terms of books. If we are to ever really fight their horror, we need to understand our enemy. If we can get litterature from them, we can get a window at their vulnerabilities and prepare if we ever want to fight or infiltrate them.

That feels... more than a bit self-serving to me. We are not the Predator about to go ham on the Dark Elves at least I really do not see many people arguing for it, what I am seeing is some people making the 'greater good' argument with regards to dealing with them in a way that will serve them at least as much as it does us.
 
Becoming best friends with the Dark Elves will probably only work out if we glue at least three more rows of spikes to our pauldrons, based on how villain characters get the immunity to ambient backstabbing and all, but we don't really need to be friends with them in order to profit here:

Mathilde kept asking about how she could get the Dark Elves to stop killing Imperial people. Not for forbidden knowledge or baby wine, just a cessation to hostilities. That's not really a morally dubious deal, and it's eminently defensible even in a spiritual context, much less a utilitarian one. Our citizens dying is bad.

If we can negotiate a halt to Dark Elves murdering people for any length of time, even if it's just a Dark Elven ruse while they scheme about something else, that's still time they spent not murdering people. It's still a win. "Surprise, we're still evil!" doesn't hit as hard when you only go in with the goal of getting them to pretend to be 'good' for a while, because you still got that while out of them.

We can have a lot of OOC arguments about them being a challenger for the throne of 'worst people in the setting', but in practical, vote specific terms, where would we be going wrong? 'Maybe stop killing us' is pretty tempting. 'We should let them keep killing us because otherwise we might not hate them as much, which would be worse' is probably true, but very unpalatable, you've got to admit.

Forbidden knowledge isn't even really on my mind, anyways. Nagash already got everything important out of them that Ulthuan wouldn't give us, and we're pretty far along on collecting that sort of stuff.
 
How much higher up the hierarchy do you think the Champion could get? He had multiple mutations, and the direct support and empowerment from his god. If he'd been any stronger, he would have been a demon prince.

And you've quoted nothing that proves that elves do have higher base stats, and high peak stats. 25-30 is heroic tier, we have 27 right now. That's on the upper end for any character, regardless of age or race. Hell, Alkharad only had five more points of learning than we do, despite being a centuries old necromancer from a bloodline that prioritises arcane knowledge.

No, I am sick of people dismissing Mathilde's achievements because the people she fought "weren't really that strong anyway".

Thought experiment
Learning is our best stat, it is at 29. Do you think it is comparable to say Teclis or Kragg. Like if we have a learning challenge against either of them where our respective specialties could be used in full do you think we would have at least near even chances of coming up ahead?

Personally I think the answer is no.
 
And you've quoted nothing that proves that elves do have higher base stats, and high peak stats. 25-30 is heroic tier, we have 27 right now. That's on the upper end for any character, regardless of age or race. Hell, Alkharad only had five more points of learning than we do, despite being a centuries old necromancer from a bloodline that prioritises arcane knowledge.

No, I am sick of people dismissing Mathilde's achievements because the people she fought "weren't really that strong anyway".
I mean you haven't really quoted nothing that conclusive either. Elves throughout warhammer are showns as stronger, quicker, faster ect. This is canon I don't need to quote anything cause this is conclusive shown throughout warhammer that they are that. Again elves lives for thousands of years even if the only differnce between elves and humans was how long they live then elves would still have a big advantage cause they have had thousands of years to improve themselves and their stats so of course they are gonna be able to get higher stats as a result cause they have lived for so long. Then their the enviroment in which these druchi live in which encourage that even more to get higher in intruige. The last quote does not really apply to this conversation at all I think you are confunding this conversation with others. Also in the beginning you said this
We have one of the highest intrigue skills possible in the setting.
you the provided multiple examples outside the 25-30 tier that are that showing it not the highest possible stats in the setting and so therefore as outlined before it very very plasubile that the druchi we are dealing with, morathi and her lakcey speffically have higher or substantial higher intruige than us. Anyway you are getting pretty heated about this arugment so I am just gonna not gonna enage anymore cause I don't think a productive conversation is gonna come out of this at the moment everyone just way to heated at the moment.
 
Becoming best friends with the Dark Elves will probably only work out if we glue at least three more rows of spikes to our pauldrons, based on how villain characters get the immunity to ambient backstabbing and all, but we don't really need to be friends with them in order to profit here:

Mathilde kept asking about how she could get the Dark Elves to stop killing Imperial people. Not for forbidden knowledge or baby wine, just a cessation to hostilities. That's not really a morally dubious deal, and it's eminently defensible even in a spiritual context, much less a utilitarian one. Our citizens dying is bad.

If we can negotiate a halt to Dark Elves murdering people for any length of time, even if it's just a Dark Elven ruse while they scheme about something else, that's still time they spent not murdering people. It's still a win. "Surprise, we're still evil!" doesn't hit as hard when you only go in with the goal of getting them to pretend to be 'good' for a while, because you still got that while out of them.

We can have a lot of OOC arguments about them being a challenger for the throne of 'worst people in the setting', but in practical, vote specific terms, where would we be going wrong? 'Maybe stop killing us' is pretty tempting. 'We should let them keep killing us because otherwise we might not hate them as much, which would be worse' is probably true, but very unpalatable, you've got to admit.

Forbidden knowledge isn't even really on my mind, anyways. Nagash already got everything important out of them that Ulthuan wouldn't give us, and we're pretty far along on collecting that sort of stuff.

It's more like 'a ceasefire would encourage trade and trade with the Druchi is worse then them raiding us because it is more insidious and likely to encourage more unpleasant dependencies in the long run'
*see previous posts for all the ways it can go south*
 
He got exiled because Morathi forever tainted the legacy of Aenerion, who was his grandfather and Malekith's father.

Did Harathi know Aenerion? Perhaps even Caledor Dragontamer?

The Grey Lords are ever more impressive (and a story time social is ever more tempting).

I think we can all agree on that at the end of this social turns we should buy ALL the books on the druchi throughout the old world

We need to talk with LM Walther Kupfer since he's probably the greatest authority on the Druchii in the Empire.

And you've quoted nothing that proves that elves do have higher base stats, and high peak stats. 25-30 is heroic tier, we have 27 right now. That's on the upper end for any character, regardless of age or race. Hell, Alkharad only had five more points of learning than we do, despite being a centuries old necromancer from a bloodline that prioritises arcane knowledge.

Alkaharad was a random ass Necrarch. Sure Mathilde is immensely talented; brilliant; divinely blessed - for the matter the word genius is quite fitting at least in terms of magic.

Her achievements are still in large part a matter of being in the right place at the right time with the right skills to act as a multiplier or a fulcrum.


Morathi is on an entirely different level from anyone we've met (except for the two dragons and maybe some of the Grey Lords). There's very few beings that are on her level and even fewer that surpass her in any way. Mathilde being inferior to her is absolutely not a slight against Mathilde.

As for using the DElves to pressure the HElves, it's just disgusting to me. The fight between them is pretty much as clear cut of a fight of good vs evil as can be. That matters, it's just wrong to pressure the party that is subject to all manners of atrocities by the other side with the threat of working with their genocidal enemy.

The thing is that the HElves aren't exactly altruists in their relationship with humans (or dwarfs for the matter). They supported the Empire in building the Colleges because the Waystone network is important to them but they've done no charity (and indeed have misrepresented their self-interest as benevolent - effectively tricking the Empire into guarding the Waystones for free without enjoying any of the magical benefits).


Now I don't want to work with the DElves because they're a fairly untrustworthy and repugnant bunch - but I feel no problem on using them to pressure the HElves because the HElves haven't been on the level with the Empire or the Colleges or ourselves in particular.
 
That feels... more than a bit self-serving to me. We are not the Predator about to go ham on the Dark Elves at least I really do not see many people arguing for it, what I am seeing is some people making the 'greater good' argument with regards to dealing with them in a way that will serve them at least as much as it does us.

Is it a bit self serving to trade enough books to increase drasticly our knowledge of the Drucchi, Lustria, sciences, etc. a bit. But considering that this information will be accessible to all "good people" of the Old World and that we are bound to have agreements with other libraries that will spread the knowledge, it's also a good deal for everybody.
 
We need to talk with LM Walther Kupfer since he's probably the greatest authority on the Druchii in the Empire.
hopefully we are able to contact him about it

Alkaharad was a random ass Necrarch. Sure Mathilde is immensely talented; brilliant; divinely blessed - for the matter the word genius is quite fitting at least in terms of magic.

Her achievements are still in large part a matter of being in the right place at the right time with the right skills to act as a multiplier or a fulcrum.


Morathi is on an entirely different level from anyone we've met (except for the two dragons and maybe some of the Grey Lords). There's very few beings that are on her level and even fewer that surpass her in any way. Mathilde being inferior to her is absolutely not a slight against Mathilde.
thank you for wording it much better than I did, I appreciate it
 
Is it a bit self serving to trade enough books to increase drasticly our knowledge of the Drucchi, Lustria, sciences, etc. a bit. But considering that this information will be accessible to all "good people" of the Old World and that we are bound to have agreements with other libraries that will spread the knowledge, it's also a good deal for everybody.

Is exposing 'all good people of the Old World' to a Druchi PoV really a good idea? I mean sure the geography maps should be fine, but I really would not want their books on religion out there.
 
I mean you haven't really quoted nothing that conclusive either. Elves throughout warhammer are showns as stronger, quicker, faster ect. This is canon I don't need to quote anything cause this is conclusive shown throughout warhammer that they are that. Again elves lives for thousands of years even if the only differnce between elves and humans was how long they live then elves would still have a big advantage cause they have had thousands of years to improve themselves and their stats so of course they are gonna be able to get higher stats as a result cause they have lived for so long. Then their the enviroment in which these druchi live in which encourage that even more to get higher in intruige. The last quote does not really apply to this conversation at all I think you are confunding this conversation with others. Also in the beginning you said this
you the provided multiple examples outside the 25-30 tier that are that showing it not the highest possible stats in the setting and so therefore as outlined before it very very plasubile that the druchi we are dealing with, morathi and her lakcey speffically have higher or substantial higher intruige than us. Anyway you are getting pretty heated about this arugment so I am just gonna not gonna enage anymore cause I don't think a productive conversation is gonna come out of this at the moment everyone just way to heated at the moment.

Elves are not actually stronger than humans—in the tabletop game, most elves have lower strength and toughness values than humans, and are depicted as frailer as a result. The only advantage they had was in speed and skill. Also it was my impression that most elves lived for centuries, and only the really impressive ones lived for thousands of years—same as dwarves (except more common amongst elves).
 
I would like to get in quest knowlege about dark elves bevor making a choice about the deals. Many arguments in thread seem to be based on knowledge that is not necessarily quest canon.
 
As a question, why do you keep giving Bel-Shanaar as the guiding intelligence for the Network.

Edit: and Drycha had 25 intrigue.
I still can't decide if that fits with my mental image of Drycha or not. One one hand, her MO of hit-and-run attacks in service of a shadowy goal feels very intrigue-y. On the other, her personality of HATRED FOR ALL FLESHY THINGS feels less like it should suit an intrigue character.

The fact that he was promoted to High Loremaster immediately upon his return to Ulthuan certainly doesn't suggest he was a renegade in defiance of the Phoenix King's direct commands, especially when you contrast his treatment to Asarnil who did exactly that, around the same time.
To be fair, most interpretations I've seen of that has him promoted fro the explicit purpose of stopping him doing stuff like teaching the Empire magic.

Did Harathi know Aenerion? Perhaps even Caledor Dragontamer?

The Grey Lords are ever more impressive (and a story time social is ever more tempting).
Assuming we're holding to canon he would have been born after Aenarion and Caledor were dead (or effectively dead). Morelion is born, spend an unknown amount of time in Avelorn (but less than 80 years), spends an unknown amount of time asleep in Athel Loren and then appears in Ulthuan, wakes up and eventually settles down and has kids.
 
Thought experiment
Learning is our best stat, it is at 29. Do you think it is comparable to say Teclis or Kragg. Like if we have a learning challenge against either of them where our respective specialties could be used in full do you think we would have at least near even chances of coming up ahead?

Personally I think the answer is no.
I don't think there's an Intrigue in the setting high enough the Coin can't overcome it if the lie is reasonable and not something you're institutionally paranoid about. It doesn't matter how Intrigue-focused Sorceress Diplomatica of Ghrond is, if we say with the Coin that the opening deals are part of warming up for larger deals with the Empire down the line, she'll believe it. And she won't put anything too nasty in those opening deals where she's trying to gain our confidence for the big payoff where they stab us in the back after helping take Marienburg, or even just help take Marienburg openly and dramatically sour our relations with Ulthuan.

We can absolutely scam these people out of their Waystone commands this one Grey Wizard has a personal interest in and wants to write some papers on. Somehow breaking a single unimportant Waystone just frankly isn't a big win for them, and if they give Mathilde any other dubious Dhar-based lore she can smile and nod and burn it later.

As a question, why do you keep giving Bel-Shanaar as the guiding intelligence for the Network.
Oh, because I've forgotten the actual name of the guy who created the Network, if that's not him. Let me go look that up.
EDIT: Caledor Dragontamer! Not even close. Whoops!
 
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IMO it's worthwhile to trade with the dark elves Exactly Once. Even if we literally tossed whatever we got from them in the trash as inherently trapped we would still have formally established ourselves as Willing To Trade With The Dark Elves which means in the future might very very slightly stay some dark elves hands, and makes the "we're willing to trade with the dark elves if it comes down to it what goodies can we get out of you to not do so" more believable with Ulthuan.
 
I don't think there's an Intrigue in the setting high enough the Coin can't overcome it if the lie is reasonable and not something you're institutionally paranoid about. It doesn't matter how Intrigue-focused Sorceress Diplomatica of Ghrond is, if we say with the Coin that the opening deals are part of warming up for larger deals with the Empire down the line, she'll believe it. And she won't put anything too nasty in those opening deals where she's trying to gain our confidence for the big payoff where they stab us in the back after helping take Marienburg, or even just help take Marienburg openly and dramatically sour our relations with Ulthuan.

We can absolutely scam these people out of their Waystone commands this one Grey Wizard has a personal interest in and wants to write some papers on. Somehow breaking a single unimportant Waystone just frankly isn't a big win for them, and if they give Mathilde any other dubious Dhar-based lore she can smile and nod and burn it later.


Oh, because I've forgotten the actual name of the guy who created the Network, if that's not him. Let me go look that up.

I think you may be overestimating the coin. We know the Grey College as an institution at least can overcome the coin if we push hard enough. I think it is fair to say that Morathi who also has her own institution of professional paranoid magicians can at least match that.
 
It's more like 'a ceasefire would encourage trade and trade with the Druchi is worse then them raiding us because it is more insidious and likely to encourage more unpleasant dependencies in the long run'
*see previous posts for all the ways it can go south*
Yeah, that's what I said. 'Some might say that Them killing us is better than Them not killing us because losing our reasons to hate them might be bad', more or less. It's not necessarily inaccurate, objectively speaking.

I did also mention that that's pretty unpalatable, though. Just letting them keep killing Imperial Citizens to keep up morale against a possible threat of moral corruption is a pretty cold calculation.
 
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