Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Hell, with some degree of contact, I wonder if K8P couldn't bring in a few Drucchi defectors. Boney's made a point to show that no one is irredemable and just because their state is awful doesn't mean that everyone of them is monsters.

After all, K8P already has dwarves, humans, halflings, spiders, a skaven, a dragon, etc. We have to catch em all if we truly want to make it a metropolitan city of millions.

That being said, I'd love to at least visit their cities. I'd be wary not to get captured, but perhaps this could be avoided with them also sending us some guests (read hostages).
 
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I read that the other way around; they told people about the Project (and hence Mathilde indirectly interested the Druchii because it's her project) but not that they were working with humans (which would have meant Mathilde directly interested the Druchii, because she's one of said humans)
If she told Ulthuan about the Project, it'd be game over - they'd already be bribing everyone involved to stop, as has been discussed previously.

It's not actively wielding Dhar, it's actively destroying dhar.
It's both. The whole problem is that you have to use Dhar via the First Secret to unravel it with the Second Secret. It's the whole reason we haven't laundered it to the Colleges.

Question for the thread: In the hypothetical scenario where we decide to play a sneaky game of intrigue to gain Waystone secrets whilst hinting at the possibility of deeper cooperation (without ever actually following through), what would you be willing to trade? Elves have been using their magics for a very long time, enough that the entry-level magics of other systems would probably be intellectually interesting but not much use unless it could be converted to the Elven model, but put that aside for one moment:

What's the most intellectually interesting but practically (militarily) useless information that we have to offer? Is there any that the Druuchi would specifically struggle to make use of?
 
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So, main takeaways from this update for me:
  1. The DElves not only admit to practicing slavery, they try to justify it as being 'efficient with suffering'.
  2. Destabilising the vortex is, on some level, a positive to them. Perhaps not pushing it all the way to collapse, but having it hiccup is something they seem to be a fan of.
So while they're not cartoonishly evil villains 24/7- and in fact Maktig seemed rather personable, assuming that wasn't an act- there are some fucking big no-nos to working with them in anything other one-off, done-and-done deals. And even those I'd be very, very wary of. They're good at presenting a front, I'll give them that, and the arguments they were making were well designed, but ultimately I'd rather Mathilde chopped off her own head than get involved with them on any significant level.

It'd be quicker, and less painful.
 
  1. Are we assuming the high elves are that twitchy? The ancient culture of people who live for centuries or millennia why would they rush to appease us after one or two meetings with the Druchi
  2. As for trade with the Druchi being of little import to the Empire... China did not have much use for trading with the British either and they fixed that.
1)They wouldn't. Thats why we trade :)
2) Boney has made it extremely clear at this point: DE raiders do not significantly impact the Empire, they are not considered particularly different from the many other pirate factions. Actually forcing Empire trade would need them to land and march an army. And this isn't a situation where Europeans can play off native states against each other like central America or India and they don't have the sort of superiority where they can do that and win, while High Elves are gleefully attacking their supply lines. I know you've made arguments about how advanced they need to be since they're such an ancient society but the reality is they've fallen from their peak just as much as the High Elves and Dwarves have, otherwise they wouldn't be stalemated vs Ulthan.
E:
I guess they might undercut prices for raw resources which could, theoretically and over a pretty long timescale result in problems with losing that trade.
On one hand hard to beat slave wages, on the other hand they have to ship them four thousand miles over hostile ocean in the age before modern Shipping liners. So thats going to drive up prices somewhat.
Also they potentially have to compete with Dwarves for any mined resources. And they probably could undercut slave wages.
 
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Reminder that all canon materials were written to be as edgy and dark and marketed towards teens and young adults. If the Dark Elves were really as self destructive, treacherous, and uncompromising as presented in the Army Books, then their society could not have survived 6000 years without falling apart, even with an immortal godking guiding it.

Lets actually look at their economy for a start. They can't be that prosperous. Sure, they use slaves for all the manual labour—which I should state for the record is awful, because if I don't someone will accuse me of being a slavery apologist―but honestly, slaves are terrible for the economy. Why? Because they don't buy anything. They don't buy food, or clothes, or housing, or wine, or art, or books. That's devastating for an economy—if the working class isn't buying, then the merchant class has no one to sell to. The only circumstance in which it is viable is when a) the merchants are in another country selling imported slave produced goods or b) you don't have enough citizens to do the actual labour work.

And that second point fits with the origin of the Dark Elves—they are refugees from the Sundering.

Additionally, Naggaroth is known as the "Land of Chill". It's very cold there. Think "Northern Canada" cold. They probably don't have a great agriculture industry, and they probably don't have a great diversity of foods to chose from—aside from the spoils of war, that is. The Sorceress was even surprised at the wine she was drinking, and her offer was for items of novelty—knowledge and experiences they can't get at home.

So what we end up with is a small citizen population who don't have to work (because slaves are doing it), but also don't have anything to trade or eat. Luxuries and trade goods must be in very short supply, and the only way to get them is through violence because Ulthuan is hogging all the good trading ports. I imagine most Dark Elves must be in the military, simply because there is nothing else to do. It's very similar to the problem the Eonir face, only their population are artists, not soldiers.

But if we can open up trade routes, create an exchange of resources between the two continents, then that equation begins to change. Raiders are out, because they make the trade routes unprofitable, and merchants are in, because they secure essential supplies. And those merchants will want people to sell to—and the small number of elites simply won't create enough demand or jobs.

It's like the American civil war. One of the major sources of tension during that time period was that the northern states were wealthier than the southern states, because slavery was slowly becoming unprofitable in the face of industrialisation and the growing purchasing power of the lower classes. The war may have become about ending slavery, but it started about protecting plantation owners profits.

Opening trade routes with the Druchii gives rise to economic codependence. We can't change their society by declaring war on them, and we can't incite a revolution either—but we can apply economic pressure, and change their society by providing financial incentives.

And yes, this is something that would take years, generations, to pay off—but it's the start to turning Naggaroth into a legitimate society, and not an angry, militant colony on the edge of the world. Yes, people are worried about how this will affect the Empire—but those levers go both ways.

I'm not saying to jump them onto the waystone project immediately—give them a chance to build trust first, to establish themselves. And if they do betray us, then they'll lose access to the markets of the Old World—forever. And that will cost them a lot.

Or we can disregard their offer, and maintain the status quo of the Druchii raiding who ever they want with impunity with no incentive to ever change their society.

Literally none of that matter because Naggaroth is ruled by supreme dictator Malekith whose singular defining feature is that he would rather see the whole world burn rather than take an L. Trying to play both sides makes sense from the perspective of an incredibly isolated elven nation, I don't think it's worth it for the empire but whatever, but Naggaroth as a nation state is basically fucked forever as long as Malekith is at the helm and short of killing him (or some of the cities cede and somehow survive it) it's not gonna change.
 
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It looks like we've got plenty of possible ways to play these deals with the dark elves.

First of all there was the Queen's idea to play them of against Ulthuan. We might be able to coax some free stuff out of them simply out of spite to Ulthuan. This seems like a good opener, let's not get confused by the offers we were given by the Druchii, remember they came here to deal with us. We have the advantage here and they're likely to offer gifts simply to open up doors or fight against Ulthuan influence.

In a move that basically every country that has been in this situation does, we should start pointing out how we've got some nice stadiums that could do with some funding and start laughing as both sides put in massive amount of bribe money to counterbalance each other.
In truth, since we're working with humans, there was no reason for us not to also put out feelers to the two claimants of the Phoenix Throne to see if we can play them against each other. The board between them has been stalemated for so long that the introduction of even a minor piece is one that either could be tempted into paying handsomely for."
I think they'd do literally anything to spite Ulthuan. And in this specific scenario, there'd be no downside for them.


Dreadlord Ylrishen has also offered us a little bit of privateer work (and lot of stupid drivel that should be ignored). This I think can be sent up the chain to the guys in charge of the ships and they can decide if this is a deal they think is worth it and if our ships can take theirs. I'd ask for payment in advance though and be aware of treachery. I also wouldn't really get any hopes up about them ceasing their raiding if they think it's profitable.

At the very least the knowledge of some dark elf ships movements and strength would be good to have if we don't make any promises.

"That said, a better understanding between our people might result in all sorts of information flowing back and forth. Clar Karond and Karond Kar are bitter rivals, and Clar Karond would profit if Karond Kar needed to come to them to replace ships lost by a chance encounter with that navy of yours. A few such opportune encounters and they would learn to seek softer shores.



Sorceress Myrielh has offered knowledge for knowledge. This is amusingly much less enticing since immediately before her offer Harathi cut her and her knowledge to ribbons. Of course this just puts us in a much stronger negotiating position and combined with their strong desire to do some spiting of Ulthuan and probably show up Harathi I suspect we can get quite a lot of information for very little.

'Well I'm interested but it sounds like your knowledge if inferior to what we already receive from the Grey Lords, perhaps if you gave some samples for us to go over we could see if you have anything of worth to offer.'
"Knowledge for knowledge. Every corner of the world has its mysteries, and as you well know, most of your Empire has never seen the visit of a single Druchii ship. Descriptions of those within your reach, and samples of whatever of them can be sampled and transported, would garner quite a bit of her attention and gratitude, and would be paid for handsomely."
"Because if she is, she's playing the same games with you that she did with Sapherion. It gets you to the point of being able to cast a little faster, but it prevents any real mastery until you spend more time unlearning it than it saved you in the first place."



All in all while I'm not willing to give the Druchii anything at the moment (and probably not ever), I suspect we can entice the Druchii to give us quite a bit. As icing on the cake accepting these gifts from the Druchii might make Ulthuan decide to do a bit of counterbalancing to prevent anything that looks like some kind partnership from taking place between Naggaroth and the Empire. So in a surprise event it looks like the Druchii showing up has resulted in us getting a bunch of interesting contracts, valuable influence and free stuff. Truly it must be opposite day in the Empire.

However, we should never, ever, ever let them in on the Waystone project. Dark elves are crazy dark magic lovers and are the just the type to stupidly blow up the WayStone network for some stupid reason.
 
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I mean yeah, it could be a trap. But Mathilde obviously won't trust them on their word alone, and she has plenty of very talented people to help, including people just as old as Morathi. They won't just use the phrases on Waystones and go pikachu faced when it explodes.
And again, if it does work? That's the Old World saved, or nearly so. What harm is there in trying? If they send us garbage, we have lost nothing. And if they don't...
"What harm is there in trying? If they send us garbage, we have lost nothing?" Are you serious?
I don't know how Morathi and the Druchii could sabotage the Waystone network because I'm not a thousands of years old Dhar user. You think there's no chance Morathi could give us info that would cause damage to the network if we try to use it, and we'll fail to catch that? You want to play magical poker with one of the strongest mortal caster in existence? Really?

I see a lot of "hard decisions" rhetoric flying around here. Not just from you, it's a common argument. 'Sure it's a difficult decision morally, but shouldn't we make the sacrifice for the sake of the world?' Giving up on your principles is no guarantee that you will get what you want. A decision can be morally bankrupt and counter productive. Working with the Druchii will be evil, but it will also be stupid.
 
"What harm is there in trying? If they send us garbage, we have lost nothing?" Are you serious?
I don't know how Morathi and the Druchii could sabotage the Waystone network because I'm not a thousands of years old Dhar user. You think there's no chance Morathi could give us info that would cause damage to the network if we try to use it, and we'll fail to catch that? You want to play magical poker with one of the strongest mortal caster in existence? Really?

I see a lot of "hard decisions" rhetoric flying around here. Not just from you, it's a common argument. 'Sure it's a difficult decision morally, but shouldn't we make the sacrifice for the sake of the world?' Giving up on your principles is no guarantee that you will get what you want. A decision can be morally bankrupt and counter productive. Working with the Druchii will be evil, but it will also be stupid.
Err... It's not a question of morality at all. Sending Morathi Waagh and Peace, or something, isn't morally bad.
Here it's just a question of weighing the risk, and here I really do think it's justified.
 
1)They wouldn't. Thats why we trade :)
2) Boney has made it extremely clear at this point: DE raiders do not significantly impact the Empire, they are not considered particularly different from the many other pirate factions. Actually forcing Empire trade would need them to land and march an army. And this isn't a situation where Europeans can play off native states against each other like central America or India and they don't have the sort of superiority where they can do that and win, while High Elves are gleefully attacking their supply lines. I know you've made arguments about how advanced they need to be since they're such an ancient society but the reality is they've fallen from their peak just as much as the High Elves and Dwarves have, otherwise they wouldn't be stalemated vs Ulthan.
E:

On one hand hard to beat slave wages, on the other hand they have to ship them four thousand miles over hostile ocean in the age before modern Shipping liners. So thats going to drive up prices somewhat.

They do not impact the Empire now as raiders if we choose to trade well *see previous list of horrible things they can do to us*. Again They have no moral incentive not to cheat us on every level and they have literal millennia on us cheating and stealing. I would argue that they have a greater advantage on us than the British had on India and the empire is about as stable as the Mughals i.e. not very.
 
Sure it is, it leads to less dead Druchi. On the whole orcs are less likely to blow up the world for fun than Morathi.
If your standard for bad morality is "slightly less enemies will die to random natural causes" then we have radically different morals. You might as well argue that it's morally wrong for the Red Cross to heal wounded soldiers cause they might harm civilians afterward.
 
If she told Ulthuan about the Project, it'd be game over - they'd already be bribing everyone involved to stop, as has been discussed previously.
That depends on both how Ulthuan recieved those feelers (did they put them in a pile marked "unimportant stuff from the colonies" or did they put them in Finubar's morning correspondence) as well as who recieved them and what they think about it. If he doesn't know humans are involved, Finubar might see getting in on the Project as a way to get in good with Laurelorn. If Teclis knows humans are involved and he was the one contacted, he might decide to get involved and not tell anyone else. If someone like Tyrion recieved it, they might just not care and discard it.

On one hand hard to beat slave wages, on the other hand they have to ship them four thousand miles over hostile ocean in the age before modern Shipping liners. So thats going to drive up prices somewhat.
Also they potentially have to compete with Dwarves for any mined resources. And they probably could undercut slave wages.
Entirely true, and honestly, I find it very unlikely the Empire would end up that dependent, but it was the thing that I thought "maybe" about.

Boney's said Dwarfs don't change their prices. Everything has a fixed price to them, so they won't change what they sell for.

Sure it is, it leads to less dead Druchi. On the whole orcs are less likely to blow up the world for fun than Morathi.
I mean, in the Tyrion and Teclis trilogy, she was planning to blow up the world for power. So it's not like fun is a limiting factor on Morathi's batshit insane plans.
 
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"What harm is there in trying? If they send us garbage, we have lost nothing?" Are you serious?
I don't know how Morathi and the Druchii could sabotage the Waystone network because I'm not a thousands of years old Dhar user. You think there's no chance Morathi could give us info that would cause damage to the network if we try to use it, and we'll fail to catch that? You want to play magical poker with one of the strongest mortal caster in existence? Really?

I see a lot of "hard decisions" rhetoric flying around here. Not just from you, it's a common argument. 'Sure it's a difficult decision morally, but shouldn't we make the sacrifice for the sake of the world?' Giving up on your principles is no guarantee that you will get what you want. A decision can be morally bankrupt and counter productive. Working with the Druchii will be evil, but it will also be stupid.
I seriously doubt that there exist commands that would screw up the Waystone Network. Why would they create such commands? I daresay the guiding intelligence behind the network wouldn't go along with it, as we've previously seen in our experiments. Also, if screwing up the network were an actual goal of theirs, it seems obvious that they could have just... gone and done that themselves, in the last few thousand years? I doubt Mathilde's Windsight is better than Morathi or Malekith's. They've got other things to focus on.

Much more likely is that we're given some of their known commands but not all of them, in which case we're in a better position than we were beforehand. Angle them towards some other situation they could get their levers in, like Marienburg, and then drop them before they can.
 
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They do not impact the Empire now as raiders if we choose to trade well *see previous list of horrible things they can do to us*. Again They have no moral incentive not to cheat us on every level and they have literal millennia on us cheating and stealing. I would argue that they have a greater advantage on us than the British had on India and the empire is about as stable as the Mughals i.e. not very.
Wait so now you're arguing that they would be capable of undermining the Empire so thoroughly that the Empire would be unable to resist war. And that they'd do it so quickly the empire didn't have time to cut off trade.

See the problem with this sort of argument, is that it assumes the Dark Elves are so hyper competent you need to explain why they haven't done this before, or anywhere else?
Not one of the Tilean Merchant Princes would have been tricked into making this deal over literal centuries?
 
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No, it means that in a moment of weakness they can pick apart the Empire which has a tendency to fall apart from time to time if we give them an opening. Trade means they can leverage their advantages in ways far beyond simple battlefield confrontation.
And why wouldn't a new Magnus not happen again? The gods don't want the empire to fall so they will help.
They do not impact the Empire now as raiders if we choose to trade well *see previous list of horrible things they can do to us*. Again They have no moral incentive not to cheat us on every level and they have literal millennia on us cheating and stealing. I would argue that they have a greater advantage on us than the British had on India and the empire is about as stable as the Mughals i.e. not very.
i still think your giving them waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit and the empire not enough. people tried to fuck over the empire mulitple times, people as strong as the druchi. they havent managed yet.
 
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Literally none of that matter because Naggaroth is ruled by supreme dictator Malekith whose singular defining feature is that he would rather see the whole world burn rather than take an L. Trying to play both sides makes sense from the perspective of an incredibly isolated elven nation, I don't think it's worth it for the empire but whatever, but Naggaroth as a nation state is basically fucked forever as long as Malekith is at the helm and short of killing him (or some of the cities cede and somehow survive it) it's not gonna change.

Malekith might be an immortal godking, but even he can't control gradual economic change and the way it affects society.

Then again, I never believed in the "Great Man of History" theory anyway.

They do not impact the Empire now as raiders if we choose to trade well *see previous list of horrible things they can do to us*. Again They have no moral incentive not to cheat us on every level and they have literal millennia on us cheating and stealing. I would argue that they have a greater advantage on us than the British had on India and the empire is about as stable as the Mughals i.e. not very.

You're joking, right? The Empire is incredibly stable. There isn't a single person in a position of power who wants to disrupt or break the status quo. The feudal hierarchy, the Elector system, the cooperation of the major cults—everyone wants the empire to be strong and stable. Hell, even 1000 years of civil war didn't break the Empire, it's that stable, and no one wants another civil war.

You are drastically misrepresenting the Empire's strength—especially in the face of a common threat.
 
That depends on both how Ulthuan recieved those feelers (did they put them in a pile marked "unimportant stuff from the colonies" or did they put them in Finubar's morning correspondence) as well as who recieved them and what they think about it. If he doesn't know humans are involved, Finubar might see getting in on the Project as a way to get in good with Laurelorn. If Teclis knows humans are involved and he was the one contacted, he might decide to get involved and not tell anyone else. If someone like Tyrion recieved it, they might just not care and discard it.
The idea that they lost the mail is absurd. I suppose it's possible that they told them they were doing the project themselves, but frankly nothing in the update supports that reading. She just says they've been reached out to because the Eonir are on a reaching-out kick right now.
 
Entirely true, and honestly, I find it very unlikely the Empire would end up that dependent, but it was the thing that I though "maybe" about
Would this make you feel more confident?
The empire isn't an Industrialised economy, they don't have a modern road network, or a rail network and I'm not even sure they have significant canal coverage. And there is no way in hell Marienburg would let them past so they can't access the river network.
How would Dark Elf imports get distributed across all of the empire? Worst case scenario here assuming that the DE do have the freight capacity and no more valuable cargo to export, and the goods are non perishable and they can sufficently undercut the Empire, its several dozen miles within the coast that are dependent.
 
I seriously doubt that there exist commands that would screw up the Waystone Network. Why would they create such commands? I daresay the guiding intelligence behind the network would go along with it, as we've previously seen in our experiments. Also, if screwing up the network were an actual goal of theirs, it seems obvious that they could have just... gone and done that themselves, in the last few thousand years? I doubt Mathilde's Windsight is better than Morathi or Malekith's. They've got other things to focus on.

Much more likely is that we're given some of their known commands but not all of them, in which case we're in a better position than we were beforehand. Angle them towards some other situation they could get their levers in, like Marienburg, and then drop them before they can.
Again, this is absurdly optimistic. Of course Morathi could put traps in any magical knowledge she gives us. How is this even a question? And are you seriously suggesting that the Druchii don't want to see the Waystone network fail? They tried to destroy the Voretx!

The road to hell is paved in good intentions? Sure. However, it's important to remember our context here, which is living in a world equivalent to if global warming was a sapient concept which hated you, and hell was a person periodically sprinted up that road directly at you to try and drown all of civilization in blood every so often. In that case, the question isn't what justifies it - at that point, it's more difficult to justify not considering any possible option.
It's like living in a world in which global warming was a sapient concept which hated you, and some people worked for global warming and it gave them super powers, and one of the global warming followers offered to share knowledge with you so you decided to invite them to your project designed to stop global warming.
 
The Asur are already fighting us and backing one of our enemies. Can we afford to not align with one of the 2 sides in the elven Hot War?
 
Question for the thread: In the hypothetical scenario where we decide to play a sneaky game of intrigue to gain Waystone secrets whilst hinting at the possibility of deeper cooperation (without ever actually following through), what would you be willing to trade? Elves have been using their magics for a very long time, enough that the entry-level magics of other systems would probably be intellectually interesting but not much use unless it could be converted to the Elven model, but put that aside for one moment:

What's the most intellectually interesting but practically (militarily) useless information that we have to offer? Is there any that the Druuchi would specifically struggle to make use of?
Following up on this, I'll go first: the way that humans and elves go about worshipping their gods are very different, with the whole devoted-to-one versus a-bit-of-everything deals they have going on. Teclis himself seemed to misunderstand how Divine magic works.

I bet that Mathilde's understanding of how humans use Divine magic as a conduit for their God, making use of their soul's ability to use magic and reach out of them, would be novel, interesting, and mostly useless to Elves whose relationship with their gods doesn't work that way.
 
The Asur are already fighting us and backing one of our enemies. Can we afford to not align with one of the 2 sides in the elven Hot War?
"We are already aligned against one of the 2 Elven sides, can we not align on the same side as the other?"
If the Asur are already fighting us there aren't downsides purely from the balance of power political calculus.

E: Actually misread the comment. Sorry.
 
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Again, this is absurdly optimistic. Of course Morathi could put traps in any magical knowledge she gives us. How is this even a question? And are you seriously suggesting that the Druchii don't want to see the Waystone network fail? They tried to destroy the Voretx!
and why do you think we just use the knowledge we get and don't double check it? your saying we are that naive?
 
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