Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[065tdsa]

Tzeentch isn't really involved with the Dark Elves, canonically.

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Obviously not, but he really really wants to destroy the Waystone Project, so when he comes up with the idea of doing one of his famous standard gambits, but needs the Druuchi to do the footwork, he calls Slaanesh (who also wants to destroy the Waystone Project, and may hate Mathilde personally because of that time we stole a Karak) who calls Morathi. Morathi says 'sorry, I didn't listen to anything you said after "fuck up Ulthuan", I was too busy fucking up Ulthuan' and soon enough this delegation arrives.

Because the Chaos Gods do work together when they feel like they might lose something they care about. And our whole goal is to cause them losses they'd care about.

 

[Ganurath]

He shut down the colleges for 20 years, empowered corrupt nobles, and sold a single city to some merchants. Hardly a devastating state of affairs.

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His misrule was key to Grom the Paunch running rampant across the Empire, and decades of corruption in leadership is something that cripples nations.

 

[DragonParadox]

Wait so now you're arguing that they would be capable of undermining the Empire so thoroughly that the Empire would be unable to resist war. And that they'd do it so quickly the empire didn't have time to cut off trade.

See the problem with this sort of argument, is that it assumes the Dark Elves are so hyper competent you need to explain why they haven't done this before, or anywhere else?
Not one of the Tilean Merchant Princes would have been tricked into making this deal over literal centuries?

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It is better to overestimate than underestimate people like the Dark elves, if you do the latter you miss out on the latest tainted lore and wine made with the tears of slave children or something, if you underestimate them everything is on fire and you are in the hold of a Black Ark awaiting sale.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

---It would mean interacting with incredibly morally bankrupt people, heinous in the extreme. Mathilde would need to taint herself by even pretending this is worthwhile. They are also very infamous for their backstabbery and we'd need to watch our backs.

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If interacting with bad people means you're "tainted", even trying to get one over on them, then Mathilde is downright filthy already. Why, she was talking to Druuchi this very update!

---They would do anything to spite Ulthuan and that can include giving us faulty Waystone information to taint the project/the Vortex.

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Again, if we're trading for Waystone Commands this just isn't possible. The Network's builders will not have encoded a self destruct command into the Waystones, and if one existed Morathi and wanted to use it she would have already popped over to do so in the last six thousand years.

--Elves always think long-term: even if nothing went wrong for the next ten years, we would be possibly opening ourselves and the Empire up to future temptations, which would be an untenable risk compared to short-term gains.

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If nothing goes wrong for 10 years, that's the dream scenario because we can just drop them, because we have no intention of actually starting a long term relationship.

Obviously not, but he really really wants to destroy the Waystone Project, so when he comes up with the idea of doing one of his famous standard gambits, but needs the Druuchi to do the footwork, he calls Slaanesh (who also wants to destroy the Waystone Project) who calls Morathi.

Because the Chaos Gods do work together when they feel like they might lose something they care about. And our whole goal is to cause them losses they'd care about.

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If the Chaos Gods are already taking an active interest in the Project, they can come through literally any polity that we care to interact with, including those who've already joined. It's pointless to even worry about here.

Besides, Egrimm is already here

 

[Woltaire]

His misrule was key to Grom the Paunch running rampant across the Empire, and decades of corruption in leadership is something that cripples nations.

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he also be letting marignurg go and the province lost one of the gateways to the wider world through trade, gave them a way to put a chokehold around the empire econmny, led many empire troops to die ect so yah he fucked up the empire bad and longterm

 

[NSchwerte]

If the dark elves know a way to sabotage the waystone network, couldn't they just do it themselves?

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Obviously not, but he really really wants to destroy the Waystone Project, so when he comes up with the idea of doing one of his famous standard gambits, but needs the Druuchi to do the footwork, he calls Slaanesh (who also wants to destroy the Waystone Project) who calls Morathi.

Because the Chaos Gods do work together when they feel like they might lose something they care about. And our whole goal is to cause them losses they'd care about.

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The Chaos gods don't really work like that. The are less "cunning CEO's with a rollodex of useful contacts" and more "natural forces that try to destroy everything in their path".

His misrule was key to Grom the Paunch running rampant across the Empire, and decades of corruption in leadership is something that cripples nations.

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Okay, I forgot about Grom (although frankly Grom successfully invaded Ulthuan, so I'm not sure a competent emperor could have done better), and the empire doesn't seem that crippled to me in spite of any long lasting effects of his actions, baring the whole Marienburg thing.

It is better to overestimate than underestimate people like the Dark elves, if you do the latter you miss out on the latest tainted lore and wine made with the tears of slave children or something, if you underestimate them everything is on fire and you are in the hold of a Black Ark awaiting sale.

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"Know yourself and know your foe, and you will never need fear the result of 1000 battles"—some ancient warlord. But you are not advocating for knowing either the Dark Elves or the Empire. You are misrepresenting their abilities in both directions—giving too much strength to the Druchii, and too little to the Empire.

 

[DragonParadox]

If interacting with bad people means you're "tainted", even trying to get one over on them, then Mathilde is downright filthy already. Why, she was talking to Druuchi this very update!

Again, if we're trading for Waystone Commands this just isn't possible. The Network's builders will not have encoded a self destruct command into the Waystones, and if one existed Morathi would have already popped over to use it.

If nothing goes wrong for 10 years, that's the dream scenario because we can just drop them, because we have no intention of actually starting a long term relationship.


If the Chaos Gods are already taking an active interest in the Project, they can come through literally any polity that we care to interact with, including those who've already joined. It's pointless to even worry about here.

Besides, Egrimm is already here

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Er... how do you know there are no self destruct commands for parts of the network? I mean parts of it were put up after the Witch King was corrupted, but before the Sundering. For all we know some imperial province is standing on a major stone that will violently blow up if you give it the wrong command.

If the dark elves know a way to sabotage the waystone network, couldn't they just do it themselves?

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Sure but if they just do it themselves they get one or two broken stones, if they trick us into doing it they get war between the Empire and the Asur or at the very least a major diplomatic incident

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Er... how do you know there are no self destruct commands for parts of the network? I mean parts of it were put up after the Witch King was corrupted, but before the Sundering. For all we know some imperial province is standing on a major stone that will violently blow up if you give it the wrong command.

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Why would such a command exist? These didn't form out of the ether whole cloth with random commands people have deducted, they were created. Why would they have created a self-destruct command?

If you're implying that Malekith snuck a few into there, why has he not used them in the last few thousand years?

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

I want to punch the Dreadlord in the face.
I actually like the Captain, and think that offer was genuine, and don't know how to feel about that.
The Sorceress was surprisingly willing to talk shop and get excited about Nerd Stuff.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

I'm pretty sure we can kiss our invitation to learn shadow magics in Nagarythe goodbye if we engage in anything but violence with Druuchi. And given the scale of what they want to be involved in I doubt it will remain secret.

I want to punch the Dreadlord in the face.
I actually like the Captain, and think that offer was genuine, and don't know how to feel about that.
The Sorceress was surprisingly willing to talk shop and get excited about Nerd Stuff.

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She's a millennia old manipulator and deceiver, it figures she'd try and play to what we like to make us more malleable.

 

[DragonParadox]

Why would such a command exist? These didn't form out of the ether whole cloth with random commands people have deducted, they were created. Why would they have created a self-destruct command?

If you're implying that Malekith snuck a few into there, why has he not used them in the last few thousand years?

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Because blowing up a couple of stones in what was until recently a primitive backwater would not get him much. Now us blowing it up has a lot more political potential.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Er... how do you know there are no self destruct commands for parts of the network? I mean parts of it were put up after the Witch King was corrupted, but before the Sundering. For all we know some imperial province is standing on a major stone that will violently blow up if you give it the wrong command.

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Because in a previous update we discovered that the waystones were constructed in a way that permanent deactivation was never considered by the creators. If you remove a waystone, the entire line upstream begins to accumulate Dhar because there are no overflow channels.

If one could be detonated, then there would be allowances in the design for the Dhar to be rerouted around it.

 

[Dark as Silver]

It is better to overestimate than underestimate people like the Dark elves, if you do the latter you miss out on the latest tainted lore and wine made with the tears of slave children or something, if you underestimate them everything is on fire and you are in the hold of a Black Ark awaiting sale.

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Yeah but if overestimate them too much I start rolling my eyes and skipping posts.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Sure but if they just do it themselves they get one or two broken stones, if they trick us into doing it they get war between the Empire and the Asur or at the very least a major diplomatic incident

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Because blowing up a couple of stones in what was until recently a primitive backwater would not get him much. Now us blowing it up has a lot more political potential.

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Why would this be the case? We would obviously be testing these out on some relatively unimportant Waystone, and we certainly wouldn't be inviting Ulthuani observers to watch.

And to back up to the previous point, you are now positing that Malekith snuck self-destruct commands into the Waystones with no intention of using them, and sat on them for a few thousand years, to politically discredit a polity that didn't even exist at the time?

He's not Kairos Fateweaver!

 

[DragonParadox]

Because in a previous update we discovered that the waystones were constructed in a way that permanent deactivation was never considered by the creators. If you remove a waystone, the entire line upstream begins to accumulate Dhar because there are no overflow channels.

If one could be detonated, then there would be allowances in the design for the Dhar to be rerouted around it.

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Unless the people who put that in liked Dhar accumulation and just added the feature in secret. It's almost like the lore you are seeking is from a millennia old probably-Chaos worshiper that was definitely part of a chaos plot.

It is kind of amazing to me that people think we can get useful lore that will have a positive impact on the world out of Morathi and Maleketh.

 

[masterofmadness]

I think people are forgetting one key detail we should consider in regards to dealing with the Dark elves: The current High Elves ambassador is from the shadowlands! One who gave us the elfcation opportunity in exchange for handing over a single unaware Dark Elf for him to torture!

Whatever else that has to be taken into account here as well.

Personally, I say we just have a quick update about it to the Emperor's Chamberlian then inform him about the meeting for some concessions for a bigger prize in dead Dark Elves. But if we do want to deal with the them we need to bare in mind the current ambassador will be extremely hostile about anything we do with them.

 

[DragonParadox]

Why would this be the case? We would obviously be testing these out on some relatively unimportant Waystone, and we certainly wouldn't be inviting Ulthuani observers to watch.

And to back up to the previous point, you are now positing that Malekith snuck self-destruct commands into the Waystones with no intention of using them, and sat on them for a few thousand years, to politically discredit a polity that didn't even exist at the time?

He's not Kairos Fateweaver!

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No, but he is probably the consequence of a plot that involved all four Chaos Gods. everything he and mumsy touch is poison and it feel;s like pure arrogance to assume we will change that.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Unless the people who put that in liked Dhar accumulation and just added the feature in secret. It's almost like the lore you are seeking is from a millennia old probably-Chaos worshiper that was definitely part of a chaos plot.

It is kind of amazing to me that people think we can get useful lore that will have a positive impact on the world out of Morathi and Maleketh.

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It's amazing to me that you think they sabotaged the waystone network and then sat on that knowledge and did nothing for 6000 years.

 

[StormySky]

I really wouldn't trust magical knowledge from the Druchii, given how even if the rank-and-file Sorceress we deal with is being genuine, the knowledge might have been sabotaged by Morathi decades to centuries ago for the lulz. I'd stick to mundane knowledge and goods if we decide to trade.

 

[mathymancer]

Lost in all the discussion is one line that jumped at me:

You try not to think of a sunken steamship, of Dwarven corpses floating in black water.

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Which reminds me that we should really take the social action to follow up on the Skull River investigation. Also, remember how the Druchii were actually on the list of suspects?

It could also be Naggaroth, they'd benefit more than anyone if the Karaz Ankor and Ulthuan go to war once more, and we know they've got contacts of some sort with the Skaven.

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And now we have official representatives of Naggaroth trying to push us into a war with Marienburg. I guess the initial plan to frame them failed so now we're going for diplomacy, huh?

...I don't actually believe that, by the way. This is probably a coincidence, since the evidence suggests that whoever was behind the ambush hired human mercenaries and that seems to be a bad fit for the Druchii. But you know what, using the Deceiver to get something out of the Druchii was mentioned, so here's an idea. Maybe we can go to Ulthuan and tell them that the Druchii gave us compelling evidence that Marienburg was behind the Skull River ambush, and they also implicated Ulthuan directly, and this evidnece is very convincing and it's going to get to the Karaz Ankor and they will definitely declare a second war of vengeance and we are trying to get to the bottom of things before things blow up. Why would we do that? Well, it might get Ulthuan to pull their weight and make Marienburg give us whoever was behind the Skull River ambush - or, if they're not behind it, to assist the investigation so that the real culprits are found. And if we claim that the Druchii captive we handed over was somehow a part of the evidence given to us maybe they'll let us know the true reason he was there, and I'm just really curious about that.

This is a terrible idea, and a pretty dangerous way to use the Deceiver, but apparently some in the thread wants to play the Druchii and the Asur against one another and this seems like it will at least be fun.

 

[DragonParadox]

It's amazing to me that you think they sabotaged the waystone network and then sat on that knowledge and did nothing for 6000 years.

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I think it is a possibility, although I think it would be more like four thousand years and change, it's six thousand to the Vortex. More to the point I would rather show humility before beings that were old filled with malice and dark wisdom when the height of technology among Mathilde's ancestors was the copper knife. I do not know what Morathi could be planning here, I do know we are not going to wrest any positive outcomes for the world from her.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

I really wouldn't trust magical knowledge from the Druchii, given how even if the rank-and-file Sorceress we deal with is being genuine, the knowledge might have been sabotaged by Morathi decades to centuries ago for the lulz. I'd stick to mundane knowledge and goods if we decide to trade.

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I mean, as much as I think we have a great opportunity here to negotiate with the Druchii, we actually have evidence of Morathi sabotaging her students magic in quest:

Tell me, does she still teach the quarter-spinwards turn on her vortices?"

There's a moment of hesitation. "I have not had the honour of being personally taught by the First Sorceress, but-"

"Because if she is, she's playing the same games with you that she did with Sapherion. It gets you to the point of being able to cast a little faster, but it prevents any real mastery until you spend more time unlearning it than it saved you in the first place." The Sorceress does not react, but her lack of reaction instead of reacting with any sort of confusion or denial is apparently enough for Lord Harathi. "So she is. Well, to be fair to her, she might not be outright sabotaging the Dark Convent, she just may not have had the time to teach you properly among all of her other distractions. She's only had six or seven millennia to do so, after all. Hardly any time at all to a woman with as many little hobbies on the side as she has."

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[Deathbybunnies]

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No, but he is probably the consequence of a plot that involved all four Chaos Gods. everything he and mumsy touch is poison and it feel;s like pure arrogance to assume we will change that.

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Bluntly, this feels like reaching for an absurdly unlikely scenario to discredit the idea. I shouldn't have engaged.

Anyway, I think I've made my position clear by now: we can feasibly extract safe Waystone Commands and probably much more dubious supplemental lore with individual trades, and sufficiently forestall any betrayals by implying with the Coin that these are the opening stages of larger agreements* for help with Marienburg, or trade, or whatever, such that any betrayals will be planned for these much more juicy deals we'll never actually follow up on.

In the absolute worst case, where the commands have enough missing gaps as to not be viable on their own, they'll make any future deals with Ulthuan easier by way of weakening their negotiating position, and supplementing the commands they no doubt already know.

* Perhaps framing Mathilde's interest in the Waystones as a matter of personal study and not her actual current job?

 

[Blackout]

And Marienburg supported Marienburg more than they supported us while fighting against a literal everchosen. That's quite a statement

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The Asur sent three of their greatest wizards and divulged the secrets of magic, without payment or obligation, to help the Empire against the Everchosen while they were themselves under an existential threat from, you know, the Druchii.