I mean I would consider this a win too tbh
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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No, it means that in a moment of weakness they can pick apart the Empire which has a tendency to fall apart from time to time if we give them an opening. Trade means they can leverage their advantages in ways far beyond simple battlefield confrontation.
Hello, I just binged through this quest, love it to death, stealing every bit of metaphysical lore and more besides for my own 2e and 4e games, just one quick question, how on Mallus have we not studied all the secrets of the Liber Mortis? Such a huge risk was taken when we took it and I mean look at this.
[ ] The Second Secret of Dhar teaches how to collapse it upon itself. Practice upon local Dhar taint, and very cautiously see if this works with Warpstone.
If this doesn't sound like a way to disintegrate Morrisleb into the constituent winds of magic eventually, then I've gone mad with dhar taint, and blowing up the moon before the Skaven can only be a good idea.
[ ] The Second Secret of Dhar teaches how to collapse it upon itself. Practice upon local Dhar taint, and very cautiously see if this works with Warpstone.
If this doesn't sound like a way to disintegrate Morrisleb into the constituent winds of magic eventually, then I've gone mad with dhar taint, and blowing up the moon before the Skaven can only be a good idea.
Mainly because a) messing with Dhar directly is an Article Violation, and our morals won't really let us do that, and b) disintegrating Morrisleb will result in an explosion that would destroy the planet.
- Pronouns
- He
With regards to 'all greenskins follow G&M or Chaos' may I remind you of The Karag Dum Expedition, Part 10: Uzkulak
Granted we don't know if their stable position within Chaos-Dwarf society is entirely sustained with state-violence, or if being disconnected from the Waaagh makes them more amenable to non-greenskin society.
Granted we don't know if their stable position within Chaos-Dwarf society is entirely sustained with state-violence, or if being disconnected from the Waaagh makes them more amenable to non-greenskin society.
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Not saying much.
Also I feel that the distinction between slave takers and slave owners is pretty thin.
The Old World also has people who think Sigmar should be the only human god. And others who think Marienburg should be independent. And others who think magic should be outlawed again.
There are a lot of very opinionated people in the Old World.
Ha! No.
If the Great Vortex goes down everybody dies. Some quickly. Some slowly. But all equally.
Nope.
As bad? Yes. Worse? No.
Every word from their mouth is manipulative poison.
A slaving pirate, but an affable one at least.
Ever the showman.
She has enough Dhar in her that I am amazed Methilde's belt didn't immolate her.
We have got to find a way of improving Mathilde's mental defences.
Given the centuries long civil war and continual infighting I find it nigh inconceivable that Bretonnia has killed more Empire citizens that the Empire.
Well that was about as expected. They are treacherous monsters willing to engage in realpolitik. Thing is, the ultimate realpolitik is this: Should the Asur win, they will throw their political weight about a bit more and help more against chaos incursions and Waaaghs. Should the Druchii win they will set about killing or enslaving everyone in the Old World.
Siding with the Druchii is very much short-term gain for long-term catastrophic loss.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Second Secret-ing Morrslieb would probably destroy the planet. Hell, Second Secret-ing a city like Skavenblight has a decent shot of doing so.
We got plenty from the Liber Mortis, no need to start actively wielding Dhar.
All this talk about Teclis got me thinking about how interesting Boney's take on the character would be. What sort of person has the founder of the Empire Magic system become in the centuries since his departure? Has he grown bitter? Softer? Has his time among the elves pulled him closer to them, or further away? Has he wanted to come back? Does he feel guilty that he didn't?
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
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- She/Her
This is like the one thing I will feel sympathetic for regarding her.
Hello, new comrade.
Boney has stated repeatedly, upon suggesting many ideas, good and terrible, that we should 'try it and find out'. However, for this specific idea he has gone on record as saying 'try it and... actually, no, dont, i dont want to start a new quest anytime soon.'
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There's also the infinitely respawning armies of daemons to consider.
I feel like people often forget about the infinitely respawning armies of daemons.
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- Location
- UK
I love the discussion and points going on with regards to straight up throwing away all possibility of working with the Druchii versus considering what they're offering.
Ah, this is reminding me of a certain mural in a certain favourite game of mine, with our goal on one side of the scales, and what could potentially be lost in the pursuit of it. Try to weigh them.
I believe in the Waystone Project, very much so, but on the other end of the scales are the empowerment of a horrifying nation (because make no doubt, even simple trade is empowerment) and potentially even worse. I believe there is a point where it might not be worth it to save the world, and Druchii dominance, or Druchii evil equivalent dominance of the world is that point, and though I doubt this will be the push that sees Naggaroth win it's millennia old war and move on to the rest of the world, empowering them even a little is increasing the likelihood of such an event coming to pass. And this is ignoring the effects opening relations may have on the Empire, and Mathilde herself. What's saving the world worth?
The Divided Loyalties are back in action, and they have been dearly missed. We should have expected this.
This is a very good point. We just had what seems to have been a six to seven millenia long plot of Morathi's unveiled right in front of us, and while I'm sure plenty have also seen through it in that time, that it's still around shows the Druchii reputation for duplicity and treachery being second perhaps only to the Skaven is very much well deserved.
Ah, this is reminding me of a certain mural in a certain favourite game of mine, with our goal on one side of the scales, and what could potentially be lost in the pursuit of it. Try to weigh them.
I believe in the Waystone Project, very much so, but on the other end of the scales are the empowerment of a horrifying nation (because make no doubt, even simple trade is empowerment) and potentially even worse. I believe there is a point where it might not be worth it to save the world, and Druchii dominance, or Druchii evil equivalent dominance of the world is that point, and though I doubt this will be the push that sees Naggaroth win it's millennia old war and move on to the rest of the world, empowering them even a little is increasing the likelihood of such an event coming to pass. And this is ignoring the effects opening relations may have on the Empire, and Mathilde herself. What's saving the world worth?
The Divided Loyalties are back in action, and they have been dearly missed. We should have expected this.
This is a very good point. We just had what seems to have been a six to seven millenia long plot of Morathi's unveiled right in front of us, and while I'm sure plenty have also seen through it in that time, that it's still around shows the Druchii reputation for duplicity and treachery being second perhaps only to the Skaven is very much well deserved.
Not "Naggaroth". Naggaroth as a polity has no use for the Waystone network. The only Druchii old and knowledgeable enough to maybe know the keyphrases are Morathi and Malekith. Morathi has no interest in improving the Waystone network, but she and Malekith would love to sabotage it because they would like the Vortex to fail. And literally minutes before that offer was made it was mentioned that Morathi deliberately gives false magical knowledge to her students.
So yes, we can and should dismiss the possibility out of hand, exactly because the stakes are so high. You don't invite the famousely duplicitous president of the Dhar fanclub to the Dhar elimination project.
- Location
- Earth
I was going to talk about how everyone would get swamped in excess magic (and daemons) if they couldn't figure out how to replicate something like Kislev's network in time, but then I figured that the megatsunamis were a much more imminent concern.
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
I literally laughed out loud when reading the Dreadlord's pitch to Mathilde.
Fallacies. Fallacies for days.
Edit: Anyway not caught up with the thread yet, but I am wondering how we can leverage this with the Asur when they catch wise to the Waystone Project, or if there is a way to leverage this without facing unacceptable cost.
Fallacies. Fallacies for days.
Edit: Anyway not caught up with the thread yet, but I am wondering how we can leverage this with the Asur when they catch wise to the Waystone Project, or if there is a way to leverage this without facing unacceptable cost.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I think you are perhaps overestimating what the people in favour of dealing with the Druuchi would be willing to give them. Given that no one actually wants a real alliance with them, buying Waystone knowledge with some other magical lore or strange gribblies isn't going to seriously empower the Druuchi.
So, of course, Asur are the "good guys" vs Drucchi and morality asks that that we stand on their side rather than the Drucchi. Sure, the emissaries had arguments, but it's mostly just what aboutism and arguing that the Empire (and us personally) have much to gain from trade and diplomacy. Considering current real world events, it's exactly arguments many of us, especially those in the EU have had to consider in thast 7 months. I think we can take inspiration from that.
I wouldn't mind exploring some diplomatic avenues with the Drucchi. For example, having lines of communications open in case we face war with a polity we are both against make some sense (the enemy of my enemy). For example, if there is an everchosen or something whether in Lustria or in the Old World, some degree of cooperation might be warrented if only on the short term. Hell, during major crisises we might even serve as a way for Asur, Dawi, Drucchi, etc. to communicate. After all, if the situation is dire enough, even ideological opponent sometime have to stop fighting or even cooperate against a greater evil.
As for trade, things that I wouldn't mind trading :
- Luxuries
- Food
- Knowledge with no military value
- Curiosities
Things that would be useful to get :
- Books
- BOOKS
- Curiosities
- Setting up a system to get back enslaved people
- Other commodities and products that might help us and that they are ready to trade considering we won't trade anything that has military value
What should be a red line is the normalization of relations (unless their practices changes a great deal). After all, their current rulership and policies are just unacceptable (and I don't want to make elfcation a no go).
I wouldn't mind exploring some diplomatic avenues with the Drucchi. For example, having lines of communications open in case we face war with a polity we are both against make some sense (the enemy of my enemy). For example, if there is an everchosen or something whether in Lustria or in the Old World, some degree of cooperation might be warrented if only on the short term. Hell, during major crisises we might even serve as a way for Asur, Dawi, Drucchi, etc. to communicate. After all, if the situation is dire enough, even ideological opponent sometime have to stop fighting or even cooperate against a greater evil.
As for trade, things that I wouldn't mind trading :
- Luxuries
- Food
- Knowledge with no military value
- Curiosities
Things that would be useful to get :
- Books
- BOOKS
- Curiosities
- Setting up a system to get back enslaved people
- Other commodities and products that might help us and that they are ready to trade considering we won't trade anything that has military value
What should be a red line is the normalization of relations (unless their practices changes a great deal). After all, their current rulership and policies are just unacceptable (and I don't want to make elfcation a no go).
- Location
- Leeds
Long term? I thought the plan was to show off our new BFF to the High Elves to make them bribe us to remove DE influence. It was a pretty short term plan. And given that as you point out elsewhere, the unbroken line of rulers for the DE over millenia, means human long term probably starts somewhere in the elven mid term.
I don't know I'd agree that widescale trade between the Empire and DE is irrellevant, but I would agree that they're a teritary partner after the dwarves and other neighbouring human state. This is why I think the dangers of Dark Elf trade are greatly exaggerated. They just aren't going to be replacing anything crucial the empire already has and can be cut off relatively easily.
And it was you that brought up cost benefit analyses. I was just pointing out where your logic was flawed.
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- Are we assuming the high elves are that twitchy? The ancient culture of people who live for centuries or millennia why would they rush to appease us after one or two meetings with the Druchi
- As for trade with the Druchi being of little import to the Empire... China did not have much use for trading with the British either and they fixed that.
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- wild blue yonder
I'm not going to advocate for actually trusting the Dark Elves, that's dumb in-character and completely fucking crazy meta-knowledge wise.
However, as other posters have pointed out, this is a chance to get in on the same game the Eonir have been playing - brinksmanship with the Asur and Druuchi.
I'm also of the party that pursuing these negotiations to see what benefits we can get the Empire without selling our moral soul is incredibly within the strike zone of a Ranaldite Grey Wizard - to quote Dresden Files, of course the Dark Elves will be treacherous; we just need to be greater and more creatively treacherous.
From a reader perspective, I'd be fascinated to see us go that direction. I love this quest, but I have thought in the past that while the loyalties are - as advertised - very divided on the side we're on, generally speaking the justification of the cause hasn't been much in question and rather simple. We fight vampires and zombies along side Witch Hunter von Vampireslayerson, we help Thoringar Oakenhammer reclaim the Lonely Eight-Peaks from Skaven and Greenskins we're in clear open conflict with, we assassinate cultists and traitors we have more or less ironclad proof of wrongdoing against either the Empire or the Old World entire. The expedition north was honestly my favorite part because it actually got a little grey morally speaking - abandon the hold or keep moving? Negotiate with outright Chaos worshipping tribes, pay Chaos Dwarves (and theoretically enrich and empower them, albeit minorly) in exchange for benefits?
It's a little disappointing to read a lot of folks seeing Druuchi and immediately going 'ick, no thank you, not touching that'. This is literally our job in both the professional and religious sense - we work in the dark to serve the light. If it isn't us giving this a shot, it won't happen. If it was just stupid, then I wouldn't be for it, but we have an incredible amount of resources that make it plausible - the Coin letting us lie, the ability to essentially aikido flip Dhar magic, relationships with multiple world powers and the ruling structures of the Dwarves, Empire and now Eonir that could actually give us authority to run a con like this.
The Druuchi are monstrous slavers and sadistic murderers who there'd never be a justification for working with in real life - but in the Old World, where any given moment we're juggling multiple apocalypse scenarios, I think there's absolutely cause to consider investigating further if there's even a chance we can point the Druuchi at the Norscans or Chaos more, or bring Marienburg closer to being back in the Empire (which would fucking massively empower it financially and nautically speaking), or jolt Ulthuan out of its internal politicking into actually justifying their perceived superiority as the world's defenders.
The road to hell is paved in good intentions? Sure. However, it's important to remember our context here, which is living in a world equivalent to if global warming was a sapient concept which hated you, and hell was a person that periodically sprinted up that road directly at you to try and drown all of civilization in blood every so often. In that case, the question isn't what justifies it - at that point, it's more difficult to justify not considering any possible option.
However, as other posters have pointed out, this is a chance to get in on the same game the Eonir have been playing - brinksmanship with the Asur and Druuchi.
I'm also of the party that pursuing these negotiations to see what benefits we can get the Empire without selling our moral soul is incredibly within the strike zone of a Ranaldite Grey Wizard - to quote Dresden Files, of course the Dark Elves will be treacherous; we just need to be greater and more creatively treacherous.
From a reader perspective, I'd be fascinated to see us go that direction. I love this quest, but I have thought in the past that while the loyalties are - as advertised - very divided on the side we're on, generally speaking the justification of the cause hasn't been much in question and rather simple. We fight vampires and zombies along side Witch Hunter von Vampireslayerson, we help Thoringar Oakenhammer reclaim the Lonely Eight-Peaks from Skaven and Greenskins we're in clear open conflict with, we assassinate cultists and traitors we have more or less ironclad proof of wrongdoing against either the Empire or the Old World entire. The expedition north was honestly my favorite part because it actually got a little grey morally speaking - abandon the hold or keep moving? Negotiate with outright Chaos worshipping tribes, pay Chaos Dwarves (and theoretically enrich and empower them, albeit minorly) in exchange for benefits?
It's a little disappointing to read a lot of folks seeing Druuchi and immediately going 'ick, no thank you, not touching that'. This is literally our job in both the professional and religious sense - we work in the dark to serve the light. If it isn't us giving this a shot, it won't happen. If it was just stupid, then I wouldn't be for it, but we have an incredible amount of resources that make it plausible - the Coin letting us lie, the ability to essentially aikido flip Dhar magic, relationships with multiple world powers and the ruling structures of the Dwarves, Empire and now Eonir that could actually give us authority to run a con like this.
The Druuchi are monstrous slavers and sadistic murderers who there'd never be a justification for working with in real life - but in the Old World, where any given moment we're juggling multiple apocalypse scenarios, I think there's absolutely cause to consider investigating further if there's even a chance we can point the Druuchi at the Norscans or Chaos more, or bring Marienburg closer to being back in the Empire (which would fucking massively empower it financially and nautically speaking), or jolt Ulthuan out of its internal politicking into actually justifying their perceived superiority as the world's defenders.
The road to hell is paved in good intentions? Sure. However, it's important to remember our context here, which is living in a world equivalent to if global warming was a sapient concept which hated you, and hell was a person that periodically sprinted up that road directly at you to try and drown all of civilization in blood every so often. In that case, the question isn't what justifies it - at that point, it's more difficult to justify not considering any possible option.
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Reminder that all canon materials were written to be as edgy and dark and marketed towards teens and young adults. If the Dark Elves were really as self destructive, treacherous, and uncompromising as presented in the Army Books, then their society could not have survived 6000 years without falling apart, even with an immortal godking guiding it.
Lets actually look at their economy for a start. They can't be that prosperous. Sure, they use slaves for all the manual labour—which I should state for the record is awful, because if I don't someone will accuse me of being a slavery apologist―but honestly, slaves are terrible for the economy. Why? Because they don't buy anything. They don't buy food, or clothes, or housing, or wine, or art, or books. That's devastating for an economy—if the working class isn't buying, then the merchant class has no one to sell to. The only circumstance in which it is viable is when a) the merchants are in another country selling imported slave produced goods or b) you don't have enough citizens to do the actual labour work.
And that second point fits with the origin of the Dark Elves—they are refugees from the Sundering.
Additionally, Naggaroth is known as the "Land of Chill". It's very cold there. Think "Northern Canada" cold. They probably don't have a great agriculture industry, and they probably don't have a great diversity of foods to chose from—aside from the spoils of war, that is. The Sorceress was even surprised at the wine she was drinking, and her offer was for items of novelty—knowledge and experiences they can't get at home.
So what we end up with is a small citizen population who don't have to work (because slaves are doing it), but also don't have anything to trade or eat. Luxuries and trade goods must be in very short supply, and the only way to get them is through violence because Ulthuan is hogging all the good trading ports. I imagine most Dark Elves must be in the military, simply because there is nothing else to do. It's very similar to the problem the Eonir face, only their population are artists, not soldiers.
But if we can open up trade routes, create an exchange of resources between the two continents, then that equation begins to change. Raiders are out, because they make the trade routes unprofitable, and merchants are in, because they secure essential supplies. And those merchants will want people to sell to—and the small number of elites simply won't create enough demand or jobs.
It's like the American civil war. One of the major sources of tension during that time period was that the northern states were wealthier than the southern states, because slavery was slowly becoming unprofitable in the face of industrialisation and the growing purchasing power of the lower classes. The war may have become about ending slavery, but it started about protecting plantation owners profits.
Opening trade routes with the Druchii gives rise to economic codependence. We can't change their society by declaring war on them, and we can't incite a revolution either—but we can apply economic pressure, and change their society by providing financial incentives.
And yes, this is something that would take years, generations, to pay off—but it's the start to turning Naggaroth into a legitimate society, and not an angry, militant colony on the edge of the world. Yes, people are worried about how this will affect the Empire—but those levers go both ways.
I'm not saying to jump them onto the waystone project immediately—give them a chance to build trust first, to establish themselves. And if they do betray us, then they'll lose access to the markets of the Old World—forever. And that will cost them a lot.
Or we can disregard their offer, and maintain the status quo of the Druchii raiding who ever they want with impunity with no incentive to ever change their society.
Lets actually look at their economy for a start. They can't be that prosperous. Sure, they use slaves for all the manual labour—which I should state for the record is awful, because if I don't someone will accuse me of being a slavery apologist―but honestly, slaves are terrible for the economy. Why? Because they don't buy anything. They don't buy food, or clothes, or housing, or wine, or art, or books. That's devastating for an economy—if the working class isn't buying, then the merchant class has no one to sell to. The only circumstance in which it is viable is when a) the merchants are in another country selling imported slave produced goods or b) you don't have enough citizens to do the actual labour work.
And that second point fits with the origin of the Dark Elves—they are refugees from the Sundering.
Additionally, Naggaroth is known as the "Land of Chill". It's very cold there. Think "Northern Canada" cold. They probably don't have a great agriculture industry, and they probably don't have a great diversity of foods to chose from—aside from the spoils of war, that is. The Sorceress was even surprised at the wine she was drinking, and her offer was for items of novelty—knowledge and experiences they can't get at home.
So what we end up with is a small citizen population who don't have to work (because slaves are doing it), but also don't have anything to trade or eat. Luxuries and trade goods must be in very short supply, and the only way to get them is through violence because Ulthuan is hogging all the good trading ports. I imagine most Dark Elves must be in the military, simply because there is nothing else to do. It's very similar to the problem the Eonir face, only their population are artists, not soldiers.
But if we can open up trade routes, create an exchange of resources between the two continents, then that equation begins to change. Raiders are out, because they make the trade routes unprofitable, and merchants are in, because they secure essential supplies. And those merchants will want people to sell to—and the small number of elites simply won't create enough demand or jobs.
It's like the American civil war. One of the major sources of tension during that time period was that the northern states were wealthier than the southern states, because slavery was slowly becoming unprofitable in the face of industrialisation and the growing purchasing power of the lower classes. The war may have become about ending slavery, but it started about protecting plantation owners profits.
Opening trade routes with the Druchii gives rise to economic codependence. We can't change their society by declaring war on them, and we can't incite a revolution either—but we can apply economic pressure, and change their society by providing financial incentives.
And yes, this is something that would take years, generations, to pay off—but it's the start to turning Naggaroth into a legitimate society, and not an angry, militant colony on the edge of the world. Yes, people are worried about how this will affect the Empire—but those levers go both ways.
I'm not saying to jump them onto the waystone project immediately—give them a chance to build trust first, to establish themselves. And if they do betray us, then they'll lose access to the markets of the Old World—forever. And that will cost them a lot.
Or we can disregard their offer, and maintain the status quo of the Druchii raiding who ever they want with impunity with no incentive to ever change their society.
Pempelune
Fanfiction Deep State
I mean yeah, it could be a trap. But Mathilde obviously won't trust them on their word alone, and she has plenty of very talented people to help, including people just as old as Morathi. They won't just use the phrases on Waystones and go pikachu faced when it explodes.
And again, if it does work? That's the Old World saved, or nearly so. What harm is there in trying? If they send us garbage, we have lost nothing. And if they don't...
It's not actively wielding Dhar, it's actively destroying dhar.
Okay that's a very very good point. But I still say small scale destruction of warpstone and dhar would be a good idea.
Also and this is pretty important, the Waystones use Dhar, probably a good idea for us to have a quick way to disperse dhar when our prototype rolls a Nat 1 and starts creating a dhar vortex.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
I read that the other way around; they told people about the Project (and hence Mathilde indirectly interested the Druchii because it's her project) but not that they were working with humans (which would have meant Mathilde directly interested the Druchii, because she's one of said humans)
Typical portrayals of Teclis among the Elves tend to ahve him as being deeply bitter about his status as a cripple, and empathising with huamns because the Elves used look down on him too before he 1v1'd Malekith. I don't remember many portrayals of Teclis as a happy person tbh.
Acarier than that, I'm pretty sure that was an amusement, not an actual plot.
There might be some sort of solution for meagtsunamis (even if that solution is abadon everything within a mile or so of the coast). There's no solution for infinity daemons.
I guess they might undercut prices for raw resources which could, theoretically and over a pretty long timescale result in problems with losing that trade.
To misquote Thanos: "I used the Dhar to destroy the Dhar." It's unambiguously wielding Dhar, and that's against the Articles.
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There's also the possibility that the Empire conspiring with the Druchii, who have mounted multiple, centuries-long, incredibly bloody invasions of Ulthuan, enslaved and attempted to genocide the Asur, will not result in Ulthuan going "ah, they deserve more shinies to be lured back" but "holy shit this is the gratitude we get for Teclis' Gift, fuck those guys". Remember that while for humans it's been generations, 200 years is nothing to the Asur, to them it's all still in recent memory.
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