Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
The idea that "Oh we just didn't know that not all humans are evil barbarians" would have a lot more weight if they actually cared about stopping raids on civilized humans. The fact that they view it only as a bargaining chip makes it clear that they don't really care.
 
Er... OK, here is a non-exhaustive list of ways in which trading with the Druchi could go very bad:
  1. They trade in addictive substances in the hopes of creating an large market
  2. They introduce a new and exciting vector for Chaos Corruption and Khaine worship
  3. They corrupt local nobles and merchants the old fashioned way, you know with money from their vast trade empire to cause chaos, influence politics etc...
  4. They encourage the trade in illicit substances like Warpstone or even slaves, just because the empire does not allow it does not mean Hans the local official would not be tempted
1) Its far more plausible to the Empire to cut ties and trade with the DE than it was for China to ignore its entire coast line. Further we have a powerful potential ally in Ulthan who'd probably be pretty happy to make any war worse for the DE than it needs to be. Think about this, if Naggaroth could project power to prevent us closing why would they have waited this long to start?
2) Its not exactly an unprotected vector? What are you imagining, random Dark Elves travelling the length and breadth of the empire peddling random trinkets? Hardly worth their time. And dealing with cults within the few limited ports that they actually spend time in is a much easier thing to deal with. And also you know this already all happens.
3)Kinda plausible but why though? Just for shits and giggles? Unlike the others this is definetly the one that they seem to have the least to gain from. And again, they aren't going to be that widespread this isn't going to be a problem in the vast majority of the empire.
4) We could make this argument about literally anyone. Smuggling is an ancient and time honoured practice of literally anyone who lives on the coast.
 
The Druchii have spent six thousand years trying to conquer their home continent from tribal people, and the best they've managed so far is a stalemate. They are not going to embark on a conquest of another continent, specially one that has standing armies and artillery and priests and wizards.

The only reason they have failed to deal with their Chaos barbarians is Chaos, the same reason no one can conquer Norsca. We do not have that dubious 'advantage'.
 
There's also the potential benefit of flirting with deals with the Druuchi, letting this slip to Ulthuan, and letting ourselves be "convinced" by a superior offer from them. Unfortunately the fact that we don't want Ulthuan getting wind of the Waystone Project really hampers this plan, but it might become more viable down the line?
Apparently this would get dragon assassins called on us.
Don't know the lore enough to tell how realistic this is.
 
Probably not. I think you underestimate how far a convincing enough and determined person will go to prove their philosophical supremacy. It doesn't need to be 1 to 1 accurate, it only needs to be convincing.
I cannot stress this enough. I really don't want to bring up real examples, but I've known people who actually, genuintely started believing that a certain infamous political commentator had some reasonable points simply because he was "good" at debate. He misrepresented the facts and controlled the flow of the conversation such that he would always have an advantage, and he'd use that to ruin the image of whoever he was debating or make them lose focus. That in itself created the concept that he was "right", because clearly, no one he was arguing with could probably articulate a counter-argument.

But the fact of the matter is that if you analyse his speech, a lot of what he's saying is bullshit. Stuff that is just factually incorrect. He just talks faster than other people and controls the flow of the conversation that people believe what he's saying. A confident enough voice and expression and body language can make people believe things they would never normally believe in.
 
The only reason they have failed to deal with their Chaos barbarians is Chaos, the same reason no one can conquer Norsca. We do not have that dubious 'advantage'.
We have god (sadly not anime) on our side. Sigmar will be perfectly willing to have his priests throw them out.

But you seem very stuck on the "the empire can't compete with the druchi thing" well why not? We can do it with the Skaven, and their literally more numerous and more technologically advanced.
 
1) Its far more plausible to the Empire to cut ties and trade with the DE than it was for China to ignore its entire coast line. Further we have a powerful potential ally in Ulthan who'd probably be pretty happy to make any war worse for the DE than it needs to be. Think about this, if Naggaroth could project power to prevent us closing why would they have waited this long to start?
2) Its not exactly an unprotected vector? What are you imagining, random Dark Elves travelling the length and breadth of the empire peddling random trinkets? Hardly worth their time. And dealing with cults within the few limited ports that they actually spend time in is a much easier thing to deal with. And also you know this already all happens.
3)Kinda plausible but why though? Just for shits and giggles? Unlike the others this is definetly the one that they seem to have the least to gain from. And again, they aren't going to be that widespread this isn't going to be a problem in the vast majority of the empire.
4) We could make this argument about literally anyone. Smuggling is an ancient and time honoured practice of literally anyone who lives on the coast.

The Druchi are amoral SoBs who do not value human life so they would every reaosn to seek high value low volume cargo at the cost of human life. Ulthuan would have no reason to save us from the mess we got ourselves into and they are not our allies in any meaningful way. Yes smuggling, including in memetic hazards, warpstone and slaves is s danger form all trading partners, but it is more of a danger from the evil elves who have this as a normal part of their economy.
 
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Let's put aside the fact that the Naggaroth is a society founded on slavery, human sacrifice and torture on a massive scale, a society which reveres the God of murder and cruelty above all others. Ignore that for a moment. What were we actually offered, who did the offering, what do we stand to gain? Captain Maktig, persumed slaver and reaver, just had a nice chat with us. Dreadlord Ylrishen basically just argued that cooperation between human and Druchii might be a good idea, and again we should mention that she did the arguing by comparing the treatment of humans by Druchii to the treatment of Greenskins by humans, which is completely awful. But the most concrete offer came from Sorceress Myrielh of Ghrond.
"My point? My point is that you owe so much to a single precocious youth sharing the tattered scraps of the pale shadow of the past that is the White Tower. Imagine what you could achieve with just a few secrets from my ageless mistress."

"Your mistress in Ghrond, or your mistress elsewhere?"

She appears unruffled by the question. "Are you knowledgeable enough to meaningfully differentiate between the two?"

Not really. Oh, you've heard a few legends of dubious provenance about Morathi over the years, but they have the salacious ring of propaganda rather than anything grounded in truth, and you don't know anything at all about whoever might be her counterpart in Clar Karond. So you simply nod in acknowledgement and move on. "And what price would your mistress, wherever she may be, demand in exchange?"

"Knowledge for knowledge. Every corner of the world has its mysteries, and as you well know, most of your Empire has never seen the visit of a single Druchii ship. Descriptions of those within your reach, and samples of whatever of them can be sampled and transported, would garner quite a bit of her attention and gratitude, and would be paid for handsomely."

"Better terms than I expected, but it does contrast rather glaringly with the origin of our Orders."

She snorts. "Your Orders should have learned that impulsive generosity is so very fleeting when your princeling abandoned you. That my mistress would speak to you as one scholar to another is a kindness, because that is a relationship you can rely upon to last, and one you will know you have earned."
[...]
She grins in a way that is difficult to describe as unpleasant, even though it is thick with smug savagery. "Should such a relationship be established, we could do more for your hopes of a revanched shoreline than merely promise not to prey upon them. Your errant subject has benefited greatly from the patronage of our oldest enemy, and we would welcome an opportunity to demonstrate both the limitations of Ulthuan's beneficence and the depths of Naggaroth's maleficence. The contrast between them, I assure you, would be quite staggering."
So, if we share knowledge with them the world experts on dark magic will share some of their secrets with us, and to sweeten the deal they will visit terrible fates on Marienburg. Yes, not only will we stop raiding and enslaving you (well we will try, our society isn't a monolith you know), we will also raid and enslave your enemies! Probably throw in some torture and human sacrifice as a freebie, you're welcome. I see a number of posters reminding us to not dehumanize the Druchii too much, so while we are doing that I will note that the Marienburgers are humans too and this offer is vile, and those who made it deserve nothing but our contempt.

And just to be clear, this is an offer to get magical knowledge from Dhar users. Not Dhar users in the sense that Sarvoi is a Dhar user, those guys (well, gals) go full Dhar, no holds barred. And moments before this conversation an accusation was leveled at them that their leader intentionally gives bad magical knowledge to her servants. The people who made that offer are vile, we can't trust that the knowledge they promise us wouldn't contain traps, and said knowledge is almost certainly knowledge we can't use due to article 7.

Also, remember how we want to recruit Bretonnia to the project? The Druchii sacked and enslaved a city of theirs some sixty years ago, and I'm sure they continue to have run-ins with their navy - Bretonnia, unlike the Empire, has a long coastline. So whatever arguments you might make about how working with the Druchii isn't such a bad idea, consider how our other potential allies might take that, and consider if you would rather we improve relations with them or with the murderelves.
 
She looks you up and down, eyes flicking from your shadow to the shadows and wisps of smoke clinging to you. "Fascinating. You humans really do take every scrap of magical knowledge you get your hands on and wring it to the last morsel, don't you? A pity the usurpers got to you before we did, who knows what you might have accomplished with better instruction."

"And what would have been the price of that tutoring?" you ask, in a voice that could technically be considered polite.

Looking at what Nagash managed with some Dark Elf knowledge, I'd imagine the price could well be the world. Right dodged a bullet there.

"Have you ever been to sea?" he asks, in a voice with only the most battered shred of hope remaining in it. You get the impression he's asked that question quite a lot already, and received the same answer every time.

You open your mouth to dash his hopes, then remember something. "Once, technically. Over the Frozen Sea."

"Oh? Visiting the Fire Dwarves?"

"Not that time. I was coming back from an expedition into the Chaos Wastes and cut across the Frozen Sea to reach Kislev via Norsca."

He looks baffled and impressed in equal measure. "Why would you go into the Chaos Wastes?"

"To see what was there."

He stares at you a while longer, then grabs a glass from someone nearby to thrust into your hand so he can clink his against it. "That's the only sensible thing I've heard in four thousand miles of rough seas. Tell me about it all."

...my first impression is this is a guy who was meant to be born over in Onepiece and somehow his soul got jumped a few genres tonal shifts over into Naggaroth. Bloody hell, Boney making all the interesting, surprising characters.

"By Mathlann, you're wasted here on land. Join my ship and I'll pay you a Sorceress' share and you'll have a cabin all to yourself."

You take a moment to entertain the possibility before shaking your head. "My current job isn't one that can be just walked away from."

...Elfcation option 2? Bloody hell. Again. I dunno if it's gonna be an actual option and it's never gonna be picked, but this is not what I was expecting.

Dammit, I think I almost like this guy. Have to keep reminding myself he's Druchii.

"So I figured, but I had to try. Say, you ever encountered the other kind of Dwarves? The Stone Dwarves?"

Little did he suspect, he was speaking to one.

"The First Sorceress sends her regards, Prince Harathi," she says in a voice only slightly quavering with nervousness.

"Only her regards? Nothing else this time? No poisons, no kidnappers, no assassins? A shame. I've had quite some time to hone my skills since her last offering to me. Tell me, does she still teach the quarter-spinwards turn on her vortices?"

There's a moment of hesitation.

Oh damn, I like this turn around, again not what I was expecting. Boney's really doing a good job throwing preconceptions of Druchii for a loop, with the hopelessness in the captains eyes and the perceived vulnerability of the sorceress. The only Druchii as expected is the Dreadlord, and even she's 'reasonable'.

"I have not had the honour of being personally taught by the First Sorceress, but-"

"Because if she is, she's playing the same games with you that she did with Sapherion. It gets you to the point of being able to cast a little faster, but it prevents any real mastery until you spend more time unlearning it than it saved you in the first place." The Sorceress does not react, but her lack of reaction instead of reacting with any sort of confusion or denial is apparently enough for Lord Harathi. "So she is. Well, to be fair to her, she might not be outright sabotaging the Dark Convent, she just may not have had the time to teach you properly among all of her other distractions. She's only had six or seven millennia to do so, after all. Hardly any time at all to a woman with as many little hobbies on the side as she has."

I love this. Intercontinental owning of Morathi's plots, and I love how he calls her Auntie Rathi. Really loving the worldbuilding this is displaying too.

Also, Morathi Quest AP hell is absolutely unreal. Six to seven millennia, jeez. Definitely the take away from this.

"My point? My point is that you owe so much to a single precocious youth sharing the tattered scraps of the pale shadow of the past that is the White Tower. Imagine what you could achieve with just a few secrets from my ageless mistress."

I will have you know we are entirely ready to go Second Coming of Nagash all on our own, thank you very much.

...though as a hypothetical, Dark Elf Sorceress tutelage/knowledge exchanging is probably one of the few ways to get Mathilde potentially scarier right now when it comes to Dark Magic.

I also notice I'm using '...' quite a bit in these comments. Probably because all of the second thoughts this chapter is giving me. Fantastic writing, am I gushing a lot? I love fun villains, what can I say.

She grins in a way that is difficult to describe as unpleasant, even though it is thick with smug savagery. "Should such a relationship be established, we could do more for your hopes of a revanched shoreline than merely promise not to prey upon them. Your errant subject has benefited greatly from the patronage of our oldest enemy, and we would welcome an opportunity to demonstrate both the limitations of Ulthuan's beneficence and the depths of Naggaroth's maleficence. The contrast between them, I assure you, would be quite staggering."

You try not to be tempted. You try not to think of a sunken steamship, of Dwarven corpses floating in black water. Of obscenely wealthy families threatening to starve the Empire for the crime of building canals on the other side of the continent simply because they might slow their acquisition of even more wealth. "I have no doubt."

Riiight there with you Mathilde. The temptation is real. Empire Naval doctrine point 1. Fuck Marienburg.

I would just like to compliment Boney on the writing of these characters, it would have been so easy to write the Dark Elves as Stupid Evil. But evil isn't scary when it's stupid, it's scary when it's smart, and reasonable, and potentially even relatable, and writing such blatantly evil characters, or characters within blatantly evil factions this way is not only in my opinion very effective, I imagine it's also difficult, and in this day and age it's also bold, for reasons related to the very important disclaimer at the end of the chapter, but also maybe even important to do, to explore. Don't wanna go far down that conversation, so I'll just say yeah, excellent stuff.
 
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I cannot stress this enough. I really don't want to bring up real examples, but I've known people who actually, genuintely started believing that a certain infamous political commentator had some reasonable points simply because he was "good" at debate. He misrepresented the facts and controlled the flow of the conversation such that he would always have an advantage, and he'd use that to ruin the image of whoever he was debating or make them lose focus. That in itself created the concept that he was "right", because clearly, no one he was arguing with could probably articulate a counter-argument.

But the fact of the matter is that if you analyse his speech, a lot of what he's saying is bullshit. Stuff that is just factually incorrect. He just talks faster than other people and controls the flow of the conversation that people believe what he's saying. A confident enough voice and expression and body language can make people believe things they would never normally believe in.

Talking faster is called a a Gish Gallop if you are curious and it is a preferred tactic of snake oil salesmen everywhere, just throw a varied enough array of nonsense faster than the audience can react to and the uninformed will think you are clever.
 
What is defined as good authority here?
Because while i am certain orcs and goblins in general are terrible people, and are inherently more agressive than humans, i do not see their destructiveness necessarily as inherent to their nature, instead of the way their society works.
You're thinking of Ogres - Orc growth rates are literally predicated on how much violence they inflict, so it's pretty clearly baked-in (and yes, I did go and double check that this is true for Fantasy as well as 40K).

EDIT: Fuck it, now that I've mentioned Ogres, lets get some Butchers in on this whole Waystone thing - they'd probably be absolutely stoked to help build a big pile of rocks that lets you eat magic. More trustworthy than either of the non-forest sorts of Elgi, too.
 
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We have god (sadly not anime) on our side. Sigmar will be perfectly willing to have his priests throw them out.

But you seem very stuck on the "the empire can't compete with the druchi thing" well why not? We can do it with the Skaven, and their literally more numerous and more technologically advanced.
The thing is we really can't compete with the Skaven. Like yes we can fight off an army in the same way the Empire can fight off a small raiding fleet from the Druchi but if they got even slightly serious they could cripple the Empire.
 
The thing is we really can't compete with the Skaven. Like yes we can fight off an army in the same way the Empire can fight off a small raiding fleet from the Druchi but if they got even slightly serious they could cripple the Empire.
... We have literal word of boney that if it came to blows between the Skaven and the empire both would not come out of it in a good way. The winner would be killed by other rivals and he did not specified who would win.
 
Oh no I like how the Dark Elves are being portrayed here, I also can't help but think since these are the Dark Elves that this is a scheme on there part.
 
The Druchi are amoral SoBs who do not value human life so they would every reaosn to seek high value low column cargo at the cost of human life. Ulthuan would have no reason to save us from the mess we got ourselves into and they are not our allies in any meaningful way. Yes smuggling, including in memetic hazards, warpstone and slaves is s danger form all trading partners, but it is more of a danger from the ecil elves who have this as a normal part of their economy.
Incorrect. You should say:
The Druchi are amoral SoBs who do not value human life so they would every reaosn to seek high value low column cargo regardless of the cost of human life.
Subtle difference, a deal that gets the profit dead with one human == a deal that gets the same profit with no dead humans.
I think its important to note that the two factions that would see cost of life as being a positive where explicitly left behind.
the bloody heart of the Khainite stronghold of Har Ganeth and the harpy of the Corsair capital of Karond Kar are absent suggests that those present could be as reasonable as the Druchii are capable of being, since they left the fanatics and the slavers at home.
If this where not the case, I'd be far more worried. However the fact that the DE chose to leave those guys behinds shows that they have enough desire that this work that they implement a basic level of self policing which shows their immediate plan is not to betray us for slaves.
 
Again, forming a long-term relationship with the Druuchi is a terrible idea, but tricking them into thinking such is on the table for long enough to scam some lore out of them would dodge any moral concerns, and seems entirely within the purview of a Ranaldite Grey Wizard Lord.

Apparently this would get dragon assassins called on us.
Don't know the lore enough to tell how realistic this is.
Where are you getting this from? Dragons aren't really assassin material.
 
The only reason they have failed to deal with their Chaos barbarians is Chaos, the same reason no one can conquer Norsca. We do not have that dubious 'advantage'.

The Empire and it's allies literally destroyed a major chaos incursion not two centuries ago, and they've only gotten stronger since then. So either the barbarians of Naggaroth are stronger than an Everchosen and his horde, or the Dark Elves are weaker than than the Old World.

The Empire is one of the greatest military powers of the Old World, and any war with it will be a war of mutual destruction. Greenskins and Chaos are fine with this. Elves, Skaven, and other human nations are not. I would be very surprised if the dark elves fell into the former category rather than the latter.
 
You're thinking of Ogres - Orc growth rates are literally predicated on how much violence they inflict, so it's pretty clearly baked-in (and yes, I did go and double check that this is true for Fantasy as well as 40K).

EDIT: Fuck it, now that I've mentioned Ogres, lets get some Butchers in on this whole Waystone thing - they'd probably be stoked to help build a big pile of rocks that lets you eat magic. More trustworthy than either of the non-forest sorts of Elgi, too.
I am aware of how orcs grow in strength.
Violence does not need to be destructive, maybe orc society revolving around competitive sports like wrestling and boxing could function just fine around other races.
 
could you maybe quote the word of boney saying this

You mean the unspoken agreement by the Empire and the Skaven to not fight a war of mutual extinction when both would much rather focus on their other enemies and internal troubles, that is framed by one side as ignorance and the other as cunning because their respective cultures make such an agreement seem like treason and cowardice to their general population?

When the Empire and the Skaven openly acknowledged each other, they almost wiped each other out. Mandred Skavenslayer might be all but forgotten to the Empire, but the Skaven still remember the Man-Dread that killed the Grand Supreme Warlord of all Skavendom. And equal to Frederick van Hal's legacy of necromancy is the awareness it instilled in the Skaven that a cornered human is just as capable of magical atrocities as they are. The Conspiracy of Silence isn't some slam-dunk of espionage the Skaven has committed, it's the formalization of their realization that they'd much rather fight literally anyone else than try to 1v1 the Empire again.
 
Incorrect. You should say:

Subtle difference, a deal that gets the profit dead with one human == a deal that gets the same profit with no dead humans.
I think its important to note that the two factions that would see cost of life as being a positive where explicitly left behind.

If this where not the case, I'd be far more worried. However the fact that the DE chose to leave those guys behinds shows that they have enough desire that this work that they implement a basic level of self policing which shows their immediate plan is not to betray us for slaves.

I was talking about the long run, in any wide scale trade bwetween the Empire and the Dark Elves 'these guys' are thoroughly irrelevant. The base assumption that cost benefit analyses can stand in for morality does not stand up to scrutiny and historical comparison.
 
There's also the potential benefit of flirting with deals with the Druuchi, letting this slip to Ulthuan, and letting ourselves be "convinced" by a superior offer from them. Unfortunately the fact that we don't want Ulthuan getting wind of the Waystone Project really hampers this plan, but it might become more viable down the line?
Ulthuan already knows. Marriseth straight up said they'd sent messages to both Naggaroth and Ulthuan.

An ongoing relationship is a bad idea. One-and-Done deals whilst implying that we'd be willing to form a longer relationship feels like it could work out.

Honestly, this feels like a really solid candidate for Deciever-faced Coin shenanigans. "Why yes Morathi, if you'd only explain all of the Waystone commands, I'm confident that would be evidence enough of your misrepresented nature to convince the Empire to align more closely with interests of Naggarond than those of Ulthuan!"
Too risky on this sort of scale. We have, IIRC, WoG that the Grey College wouldn't trust Deciever based shenanigans, and I doubt that any Druchii high enough ranked for that meeting lacks that kind of paranoia.

The Druchii have spent six thousand years trying to conquer their home continent from tribal people, and the best they've managed so far is a stalemate.
No they haven't. The Druchii conquered their home continent and then didn't bother to expand into the Chaos Wastes, because they're the Chaos Wastes.
 
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