I mean sure... do do unpalatable things all the time because the alternative is worse. It was dishonorable for instance to hide the 'die well' note, but we did it because dawi civil war would be bad.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I mean sure... do do unpalatable things all the time because the alternative is worse. It was dishonorable for instance to hide the 'die well' note, but we did it because dawi civil war would be bad.
Morathi hasn't melded her soul with Ulgu, the Grey College has. Morathi had to teach herself paranoia—the Grey Order breathes it. Sure, that's no guarantee the Coin will work on her—but I suspect that Ranald's divine magic would be more effective against someone who doesn't have a soul made out of the wind of suspicion than one who does.
Old Wounds, Old Warriors
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Old Wounds, Old Warriors
As the mighty Dark Elven ships prowl through the river and you look from invitation to fluttering pennant, you are forced to consider a great many things. Most of all, the current war raging to the west.
...Well, a war for the Estalians, anyway. A particularly engaged campaign in their war against the Asur for the Druchii.
Wait--Estalian. Is the Optio Diaz still in the city? Hopefully not. The Estalians have more than enough reason to hate the Druchii: there is of course the longer view, that as a fading power with coastline to the west, east, and south Estalia has been plundered by Druchii Corsairs to a level comparable to that which the Empire has suffered under the Norscans; fine goods, even by Elven standards, and many educated craftsmen without the sort of strong, central military that might otherwise imply. In the medium view, Alyazra has had a considerable time to shape and educate the Guilds, indeed might even still be in Estalia, certainly the Windseekers claim as such. In the short term, there is the matter of Aguila.
All together, Dragao Diaz has very good reason not to take the interference of the Druchii lying down. Hopefully he is out of the city, or is at least not yet aware of of the presence of the Dark Elves so you may speak to him before he does something utterly reckless founded only on the vendetta.
And then you can feel the perturbation of the Winds that says someone is dragging at the beastly Wind and that hope dies too.
The scenario when you get down to the docks where the Druchii are disembarking is not...well it's not awful, but it could, undoubtedly, be better. Dragao has his massive beastskull mask on, his bronze staff grabbed in both hand and an ax in his belt, burning with magic glyphs: some you recognize, and some that are either the instruction of Alyazra or the independent invention of the Guilds after so many years. Fortunately for all he seems to have it at hand it has neither the cut sap of the trees nor has it left his belt. The envoys' guards have gripped their weapons as they look at him, though the Eonir that even now grab swords and spears and all other means of weaponry have at least ensured the two parties do not come to blows.
"I did not realize the Eonir allowed littering on their streets, Druchii."
"And I did not realize the Traitors let their newest pets wander about the world."
"Ah, you recognize me then, Sorceress?"
"I recognize the stench of that traitor Alyazra on you, yes, and that and the accent tells me well enough what you are. But no, eagle, you have done nothing to merit our knowledge."
"Hm." He gestures at one of the banners, that of Clar Karond--Shipyard of Naggaroth. "I suppose that to be the banner of Clar Karond, then?"
"Oh very good, the Usurpers have taught you our heraldry. A few thousand more years and you might be half-civilized, slave."
"I want you to return home and ask the Lordlings and the Guardmasters and Reavers what the man who called the eagles down upon Gariond Karond looked like, what mask he bore--if any of them still have the tongues to speak; Myrmidia's wisdom is not required to know that you would never have healed them."
"Gariond Karond? Is that not the same colony where your...champion...was broken upon the rocks?"
"It is the place where my cousin Ines was struck in slaughtering you, yes, and even now recovers for the price of one of your Sorceresses; a cousin or a sister I imagine. It is also the place where Giovanna slaughtered one of those cheap excuses for dragons you ride about on; I am told her armor will be ready soon enough."
"Unless we get to her first."
"None of you have the skill to face her short of that miserable thing you call a king crawling his ass out of his mother's chamber long enough-"
"Dragao," you say walking between the two of them before somebody something violent and stupid one way or another, "we need to speak now, come with me." Not waiting for him to babble something about Estalian honor or some other hogwash you grab him by the cloak and pull and his desire not to look silly outweighs his desire to try and goad the Dark Elf into attempted homicide. The Druchii and the Eonir alike withdraw or continue their entrance into, calming down, even as you pull him into a relatively quiet and secluded alley.
"Are you planning on running your mouth so much every time someone Estalia has trouble with dares to exist within eyesight?"
"I didn't start a fight with the Ice Witch did I? Nor the Dwarf. Nor the Hag. Even as they mocked the long struggle of my people against the Skaven--a threat your Empire lacks the strength of will to even acknowledge exists. Even as they mocked and denigrated the Asur who came and fought with us against the Nurglites even as the Kislevites sent nothing, and the Dwarfs a handful of Slayers--and that is a damn stretch to say sent, is it not? So yes I would say it requires more than some bad blood to get me this aggressive."
"I seem to recall Imperials making their way there to fight too."
"Aye. Ostlanders, Halflings. Reiklanders." He gestures with one slashed sleeves, letting the leather bounce about the place. "Enough that, whether or not you decide to indulge these murderers, I will not be leaving."
"What?"
He plants his staff firmly on the ground. "I will advise strongly against so much as tolerating those air-thieves, never mind dealing with them one way or another. Mark my words, if I had my druthers, they would be escorted out peacefully." He sniffs. "But then if I had my way we would be doing this in Athel Loren, for we would have grown beyond the lies of the Dwarfs and the Empire alike in measuring that people. And yet the vow was sworn, and it will be honored, come what may." He seems to look into a distance whose horizon is not measured by distance but by time. "For though I have but wealth and glory, if I do not keep the honor of my word then I will have nothing."
"And what makes you so certain I won't kick you out for that little stunt? Whatever vows may have been sworn, I cannot have anyone, anyone, threatening our presence in Laurelorn." It's true: the Optio might have whatever knowledge the Menhirs of Estalia are worth, but the Eonir have much more, and are more stable beside.
"Nothing, except that I imagine that it requires more than undiplomatic blow ups to make a Gray Wizard lose her cool, and the fact that you can use the contrast between my fury and your serenity to make yourself seem more worthy to the Eonir, for whatever that's worth."
You nod. "You aren't wrong, at least for right now. But if you do something like that again, I will."
"Understood."
Little thing that is a sequel to the two other Windseeker Omakes. Done quick while I was in the right mood.
As the mighty Dark Elven ships prowl through the river and you look from invitation to fluttering pennant, you are forced to consider a great many things. Most of all, the current war raging to the west.
...Well, a war for the Estalians, anyway. A particularly engaged campaign in their war against the Asur for the Druchii.
Wait--Estalian. Is the Optio Diaz still in the city? Hopefully not. The Estalians have more than enough reason to hate the Druchii: there is of course the longer view, that as a fading power with coastline to the west, east, and south Estalia has been plundered by Druchii Corsairs to a level comparable to that which the Empire has suffered under the Norscans; fine goods, even by Elven standards, and many educated craftsmen without the sort of strong, central military that might otherwise imply. In the medium view, Alyazra has had a considerable time to shape and educate the Guilds, indeed might even still be in Estalia, certainly the Windseekers claim as such. In the short term, there is the matter of Aguila.
All together, Dragao Diaz has very good reason not to take the interference of the Druchii lying down. Hopefully he is out of the city, or is at least not yet aware of of the presence of the Dark Elves so you may speak to him before he does something utterly reckless founded only on the vendetta.
And then you can feel the perturbation of the Winds that says someone is dragging at the beastly Wind and that hope dies too.
The scenario when you get down to the docks where the Druchii are disembarking is not...well it's not awful, but it could, undoubtedly, be better. Dragao has his massive beastskull mask on, his bronze staff grabbed in both hand and an ax in his belt, burning with magic glyphs: some you recognize, and some that are either the instruction of Alyazra or the independent invention of the Guilds after so many years. Fortunately for all he seems to have it at hand it has neither the cut sap of the trees nor has it left his belt. The envoys' guards have gripped their weapons as they look at him, though the Eonir that even now grab swords and spears and all other means of weaponry have at least ensured the two parties do not come to blows.
"I did not realize the Eonir allowed littering on their streets, Druchii."
"And I did not realize the Traitors let their newest pets wander about the world."
"Ah, you recognize me then, Sorceress?"
"I recognize the stench of that traitor Alyazra on you, yes, and that and the accent tells me well enough what you are. But no, eagle, you have done nothing to merit our knowledge."
"Hm." He gestures at one of the banners, that of Clar Karond--Shipyard of Naggaroth. "I suppose that to be the banner of Clar Karond, then?"
"Oh very good, the Usurpers have taught you our heraldry. A few thousand more years and you might be half-civilized, slave."
"I want you to return home and ask the Lordlings and the Guardmasters and Reavers what the man who called the eagles down upon Gariond Karond looked like, what mask he bore--if any of them still have the tongues to speak; Myrmidia's wisdom is not required to know that you would never have healed them."
"Gariond Karond? Is that not the same colony where your...champion...was broken upon the rocks?"
"It is the place where my cousin Ines was struck in slaughtering you, yes, and even now recovers for the price of one of your Sorceresses; a cousin or a sister I imagine. It is also the place where Giovanna slaughtered one of those cheap excuses for dragons you ride about on; I am told her armor will be ready soon enough."
"Unless we get to her first."
"None of you have the skill to face her short of that miserable thing you call a king crawling his ass out of his mother's chamber long enough-"
"Dragao," you say walking between the two of them before somebody something violent and stupid one way or another, "we need to speak now, come with me." Not waiting for him to babble something about Estalian honor or some other hogwash you grab him by the cloak and pull and his desire not to look silly outweighs his desire to try and goad the Dark Elf into attempted homicide. The Druchii and the Eonir alike withdraw or continue their entrance into, calming down, even as you pull him into a relatively quiet and secluded alley.
"Are you planning on running your mouth so much every time someone Estalia has trouble with dares to exist within eyesight?"
"I didn't start a fight with the Ice Witch did I? Nor the Dwarf. Nor the Hag. Even as they mocked the long struggle of my people against the Skaven--a threat your Empire lacks the strength of will to even acknowledge exists. Even as they mocked and denigrated the Asur who came and fought with us against the Nurglites even as the Kislevites sent nothing, and the Dwarfs a handful of Slayers--and that is a damn stretch to say sent, is it not? So yes I would say it requires more than some bad blood to get me this aggressive."
"I seem to recall Imperials making their way there to fight too."
"Aye. Ostlanders, Halflings. Reiklanders." He gestures with one slashed sleeves, letting the leather bounce about the place. "Enough that, whether or not you decide to indulge these murderers, I will not be leaving."
"What?"
He plants his staff firmly on the ground. "I will advise strongly against so much as tolerating those air-thieves, never mind dealing with them one way or another. Mark my words, if I had my druthers, they would be escorted out peacefully." He sniffs. "But then if I had my way we would be doing this in Athel Loren, for we would have grown beyond the lies of the Dwarfs and the Empire alike in measuring that people. And yet the vow was sworn, and it will be honored, come what may." He seems to look into a distance whose horizon is not measured by distance but by time. "For though I have but wealth and glory, if I do not keep the honor of my word then I will have nothing."
"And what makes you so certain I won't kick you out for that little stunt? Whatever vows may have been sworn, I cannot have anyone, anyone, threatening our presence in Laurelorn." It's true: the Optio might have whatever knowledge the Menhirs of Estalia are worth, but the Eonir have much more, and are more stable beside.
"Nothing, except that I imagine that it requires more than undiplomatic blow ups to make a Gray Wizard lose her cool, and the fact that you can use the contrast between my fury and your serenity to make yourself seem more worthy to the Eonir, for whatever that's worth."
You nod. "You aren't wrong, at least for right now. But if you do something like that again, I will."
"Understood."
Little thing that is a sequel to the two other Windseeker Omakes. Done quick while I was in the right mood.
AzrielIlluminare
Mothman Cultist
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I've seen this mentioned at least once I think, but uh... Dark Elves have 'helped' people before, it always ended badly for the people being 'helped.'
Plus in Lore, Dark Elves see causing suffering as a form of art. And tricking people into causing their own suffering is something they do regularly. So yeah, I'd rather us not touch anything they offer with a ten-foot pole and even then I'd still be extremely cautious.
Plus in Lore, Dark Elves see causing suffering as a form of art. And tricking people into causing their own suffering is something they do regularly. So yeah, I'd rather us not touch anything they offer with a ten-foot pole and even then I'd still be extremely cautious.
- Location
- Earth
The library has different tiers of access, and elven gods in general are a restricted topic because humans are bad at moderation. So only people trusted to not go bananas and turn into a fanatic cultist would be allowed to read those.
Given the blessings Morathi may or may not have from Khorne and/or Slaanesh I would not want to make any bets about the state of her soul.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
The Grey College can overcome the coin by being professionally paranoid about a Wizard potentially being an Empire-ending threat, with only their word to go off of. You fundamentally can't function in a diplomatic sense if you assume every statement your opponent is making is a lie; at some point, you do have to trust that your diplomatic expert knows what she's talking about when she says that her read is they're being honest.
It's also a matter of weighting. The Grey college is weighing the life of one convincing Grey Wizard against that of the entire Empire. Our hypothetical diplomat is weighing the possibility of getting the Empire on Ulthuan's shitlist and having them act in Naggaroth's interests against the possible loss of an opportunity to trick this human into breaking one Waystone, presumably picked for testing.
You'd have to be pretty insane to give the former up for the latter.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think that's overselling it. Grom almost destroyed Yvresse and its Waystone Network. But while that is vital, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have singlehandedly sunk Ulthuan and destroyed the Vortex.
No, we do not know if the Grey College can overcome the coin. The only thing we know for sure is that basically according to Boney it is the case of the immovable object and unstoppable force. Mainly due to the fundamental clashing between what the College does and what the Deceiver coin does. Which is absolute belief that what the wielder is saying is the truth in their point of view and the Grey College stance which is to continuously doubt over single thing as much as possible to the point it gets that if the person feels too trustworthy, they get even more paranoid sometimes.
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I agree on that, but geography and knowledge about their neighbours from a major power of Lustria would be enormous in itself, no matter the bias. As would be getting their agriculture, engineering, medecine, etc. books.
As for their books on religion, society, ethics, etc. I could see some of those needing to be restricted, but all in all, I feel that knowing your enemy is better than not doing so and the knowledge could be useful to the few people who have to fight the Drucchi.
I mean, I'd also want to keep channels open. Even if it's just us (or someone else) having one conversation a year with an emissary of some kind. After all, we have many common enemies that in time of crisis we could, if not work together against a common foes, at the very least try not to get in each other's way.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Assume Morathi does have a Waystone Code of "break this particular Waystone right now". It makes no sense to exist, but she seduced an architect and snuck it in there, and never used it for no reason. Fine, whatever.
The idea that the Druuchi are so desperate to backstab people that they'll prioritise screwing over this one Wizard diplomat in particular and getting her to break a Waystone she's running the tests on, sabotaging all the nation-scale diplomatic contact and agreements they could potentially make... I mean come on guys, they're not Skaven
The idea that the Druuchi are so desperate to backstab people that they'll prioritise screwing over this one Wizard diplomat in particular and getting her to break a Waystone she's running the tests on, sabotaging all the nation-scale diplomatic contact and agreements they could potentially make... I mean come on guys, they're not Skaven
- Location
- Europe
Mathilde: "Have you considered not enslaving people, but instead using magic or technology to automate resource extraction and refinement?"
Dark Elf: "Yes, but it's less fun than torture. Also, Dwarves and Ulthuan elves already fit into that niche. We need something to distinguish our brand."
Why would you want to make a deal with these people? Their culture is legitimately evil.
Assume Morathi does have a Waystone Code of "break this particular Waystone right now". It makes no sense to exist, but she seduced an architect and snuck it in there, and never used it for no reason. Fine, whatever.
The idea that the Druuchi are so desperate to backstab people that they'll prioritise screwing over this one Wizard diplomat in particular and getting her to break a Waystone she's running the tests on, sabotaging all the nation-scale diplomatic contact and agreements they could potentially make... I mean come on guys, they're not Skaven
Even then, I doubt Skaven would want to sabotage a waystone mid-project. Kill everyone involved so that they are the only ones left holding the research at the end, sure, but betrayal without profit is just asking for a smarter underling to kill you first and claim the spoils for themselves.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Ah, fair enough.
Although the thought of Bel-Shanaar controlling the Network does make me think. Belegar's crown was a control object for the K8P Waystone. And the Elves were desparate to recover the Phoenix Crown after the War of the Beard. And Caledor might have helped forge the Phoenix Crown. Am I just seeing connections that aren't there, or is there an actual possibility some bright spark decided to tie control over Ulthuan's part of the network to the Crown?
I mean, based on what they've said, Druchii ships would continue to raid the Empire regardless of what deals get made. The Dreadlord said as much, pretty clearly.
If Morathi or Malekith had the ability to blow up Waystones, I feel like they might have used it when there were Asur cities built around said Waystones.Assume Morathi does have a Waystone Code of "break this particular Waystone right now". It makes no sense to exist, but she seduced an architect and snuck it in there, and never used it for no reason. Fine, whatever.
The idea that the Druuchi are so desperate to backstab people that they'll prioritise screwing over this one Wizard diplomat in particular and getting her to break a Waystone she's running the tests on, sabotaging all the nation-scale diplomatic contact and agreements they could potentially make... I mean come on guys, they're not Skaven
I feel like the Skaven might get someone to do it to see what happens. Their idea of safe is not an environment I would want to operate in, even if they were being genuine.
- Location
- USA
Assume Morathi does have a Waystone Code of "break this particular Waystone right now". It makes no sense to exist, but she seduced an architect and snuck it in there, and never used it for no reason. Fine, whatever.
The idea that the Druuchi are so desperate to backstab people that they'll prioritise screwing over this one Wizard diplomat in particular and getting her to break a Waystone she's running the tests on, sabotaging all the nation-scale diplomatic contact and agreements they could potentially make... I mean come on guys, they're not Skaven
I actually do want to interact more with the Druuchi 'cause I love interesting worldbuilding and complicated characters. I want to see more of what Boney's come up with.
That said, the potentials for sabotage probably don't involve sharing "explode" command phrases. I imagine something more long term, like "oh sure, to make waystone gold you just have to mix liquified apparition into the alloy". Then the camera cuts over to Caledor in the vortex, looking grouchily at the steadily growing hordes of gribblies half-condensed out of the winds, linking limbs like fire ants to keep each other from being sucked into the warp. Critical mass reached, they fully materialize, Ulthuan and the vortex get savaged by our apparition bomb.
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
So while I enjoyed this update the part that I enjoyed the most and will never grow tired of seeing is when an Elf looks at Mathilde's soul and gets surprised at what she's done to herself by linking it so close to Ulgu. It is just hilarious to see the elves be completely flabbergasted by what humans get up to in the magical realm.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
That would be sabotaging international-level diplomacy and intrigue for what seems to be a very small project. The Druuchi don't know the Waystone Project is a multinational effort, and I see no reason to tell them.
Also, that would fall under "dubious lore that isn't the Waystone commands I negotiated for", and thus I'd probably argue in favour of just ignoring it.
- Location
- Earth
Yeah, that seems more like it. Sneakier sabotage along the lines of a magical equivalent to "DDT is a wonderful bug-controlling substance that has no negative effect whatsoever on the environment" or something, that takes time for its effects to become notable and by then it's widespread and takes concerted effort to get rid of.
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I'm... tempted by the world building. Boney likes a functional setting. Lore dark elves don't look functional. I want to see how they are here.
Having said that... Even if the grudge over the start of the War if the Beard is struck these days, our dwarf friends still want nothing to do with the instigators of it. When we started the Waystone Project with the Eonir (or even we got them to help), they were rather particular about that. So I really don't want too deep a relationship ship with the dark elves.
That said, maybe buying lore from them for... something might be worth it. Maybe if we try to play their disdain for us against them. But then... Dark magic. Tzeentch. That's how they get their hooks in you, I suppose.
Might be best to tell the Empire's chief diplomat "Hey, we can have an in with the dark elves. Use that 'threat' to get something out of the high elves, would you?" and leave it at that.
Having said that... Even if the grudge over the start of the War if the Beard is struck these days, our dwarf friends still want nothing to do with the instigators of it. When we started the Waystone Project with the Eonir (or even we got them to help), they were rather particular about that. So I really don't want too deep a relationship ship with the dark elves.
That said, maybe buying lore from them for... something might be worth it. Maybe if we try to play their disdain for us against them. But then... Dark magic. Tzeentch. That's how they get their hooks in you, I suppose.
Might be best to tell the Empire's chief diplomat "Hey, we can have an in with the dark elves. Use that 'threat' to get something out of the high elves, would you?" and leave it at that.
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Pretty sure Morathi has zero blessings from Khorne of all deities. Khorne hates wizards and Morathi is amongst the greatest wizards ever.
The idea that the Druuchi are so desperate to backstab people that they'll prioritise screwing over this one Wizard diplomat in particular and getting her to break a Waystone she's running the tests on, sabotaging all the nation-scale diplomatic contact and agreements they could potentially make... I mean come on guys, they're not Skaven
They don't have to specifically sabotage the Waystone project to backstab us though.
They can work in good-ish faith on one project and backstab us on Marienburg or on trade or on something else. The main point is that they won't work on good faith - they're at a bare minimum work on worse faith than Ulthuan by default - and the Asur have been less than honest and transparent themselves.
The Eonir we can trust because they have too much at stake to piss away good will and also because an army can get to them and potentially wreck their day if they screw us over and they know that.
Sorry wrong murder god I meant Khaine.
I feel like we need to deal with the DE on account of the fact that we're really really stuck with the project, as in short of a couple of crits somewhere the lack of passwords makes large changes to the network impossible. And that's not lore we can get anywhere else, Kislev doesn't know it, the Dawi forgot it, Bretonnia doesn't know, we sure as hell don't know.
Only Ulthuan and Nargaroth, hell most likely only the white tower and Morathi know about those passwords. And Ulthuan explicitly has spent millennia, since the days of the old druids, not only not telling the humans despite the fact we're protecting their floaty bits but actively making sure to prevent us from finding out, with the Articles notably.
People arguing that we can just ask the Helves for the lore we can get from the Delves, how? I feel like it's been pretty clearly stated in and out of story that the moment they learn about this they are shutting it down, with either the carrot or the stick.
Unless people are arguing we burgle the info from the white tower during elfaction, which I would totally be for btw that sounds amazing. I don't see how we're getting those passcodes.
Is it safe? No. is it dangerous? Yes. But it's also pretty much our only choice apart from convincing Ulthuan that they're doing Waystones wrong actually.
Only Ulthuan and Nargaroth, hell most likely only the white tower and Morathi know about those passwords. And Ulthuan explicitly has spent millennia, since the days of the old druids, not only not telling the humans despite the fact we're protecting their floaty bits but actively making sure to prevent us from finding out, with the Articles notably.
People arguing that we can just ask the Helves for the lore we can get from the Delves, how? I feel like it's been pretty clearly stated in and out of story that the moment they learn about this they are shutting it down, with either the carrot or the stick.
Unless people are arguing we burgle the info from the white tower during elfaction, which I would totally be for btw that sounds amazing. I don't see how we're getting those passcodes.
Is it safe? No. is it dangerous? Yes. But it's also pretty much our only choice apart from convincing Ulthuan that they're doing Waystones wrong actually.
Gog
Neoliberal Genghis Khan
From a purely realpolitik perspective, it would make sense to at least play along with the Druchii offer enough to show the High Elves that their support of Marienburg has very real costs in their wider conflict that's much more important to them. That would probably be the best way to get them to reconsider and put out overtures towards the Empire now that they couldn't take them for granted being in their camp.
Not that it would be beneficial at all for the Empire to outright cozy up with the Druchii given how much more easily the High Elves could fuck up the Empire's shit than the Druchii ever could due distance and trade etc.
Not that it would be beneficial at all for the Empire to outright cozy up with the Druchii given how much more easily the High Elves could fuck up the Empire's shit than the Druchii ever could due distance and trade etc.
So why can't the high elves figure out the underlined and call our bluff?