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So why can't the high elves figure out the underlined and call our bluff?
They could, but making an effort of entertaining the Druchii offer gives the Empire significantly leverage over the Marienburg issue than they have right now. The threat of a Dark Elf counterweight turns this into a wider geopolitical flashpoint rather than Ulthuan putting their finger on the scales for Marienburg. Even if the High Elves are better allies for the Empire than the Druchii (obviously), they might want to butter up the Empire rather than risk them having more dealings with the Druchii in the future.
 
Although the thought of Bel-Shanaar controlling the Network does make me think. Belegar's crown was a control object for the K8P Waystone. And the Elves were desparate to recover the Phoenix Crown after the War of the Beard. And Caledor might have helped forge the Phoenix Crown. Am I just seeing connections that aren't there, or is there an actual possibility some bright spark decided to tie control over Ulthuan's part of the network to the Crown?
Sooooo, you're saying my dream of stealing the Phoenix Crown and giving it back the the Helves might still happen? Grand.
 
So why can't the high elves figure out the underlined and call our bluff?

Can they afford to risk it? Indeed the Asur having a low opinion of humans can work in our favour here.

People arguing that we can just ask the Helves for the lore we can get from the Delves, how? I feel like it's been pretty clearly stated in and out of story that the moment they learn about this they are shutting it down, with either the carrot or the stick.

Unless people are arguing we burgle the info from the white tower during elfaction, which I would totally be for btw that sounds amazing. I don't see how we're getting those passcodes.

The problem for the High Elves is that they can't fight both the Old World and the Druchii at the same time. The one time they did that was during Caledor II and resulted in the Asur losing a majority of their colonies.

That means that the High Elves either have to cooperate or throw all the carrots. All the carrots. Marienburg? Dumped. Access to select tomes from the White Tower of Hoeth? Granted. The amount of stuff Ulthuan might bribe Mathilde with if we play our cards correctly is immense.
 
They don't have to specifically sabotage the Waystone project to backstab us though.

They can work in good-ish faith on one project and backstab us on Marienburg or on trade or on something else. The main point is that they won't work on good faith - they're at a bare minimum work on worse faith than Ulthuan by default - and the Asur have been less than honest and transparent themselves.

The Eonir we can trust because they have too much at stake to piss away good will and also because an army can get to them and potentially wreck their day if they screw us over and they know that.
Yes, the plan would explicitly be to not make those other deals. The opening, trust-building deal would turn out to be the only deal.
 
I am astonished that literally anyone is advocating for making deals with Druchii.

Put aside moral arguments completely. Druchii do not make mutually beneficial deals. They make traps. That's it. That's the sum total of their spectrum of diplomatic options.

If they are offering us something, it is because they see the opportunity to fuck us over exponentially harder later. Maybe by passing us poison pill 'knowledge' that fucks over our project. Maybe by using the opportunity to drive wedges between the factions of order, burning tentatively built bridges. (Hey, high elves, guess who's working for the Druchii now?) Maybe by seeding Dhar temptations among some of the many high casters we've gathered. Hell, maybe even just by using the diplomatic channel to conduct espionage deeper into the continent! Or more likely, all of the above and beyond!

People want to make deals with Morathi? Why don't we just sample Queen Mab's bread rolls and wish on a monkey's paw while we're at it?

I think the feasible idea here is that any prospective 'deal' they might betray us on opens them equally to being betrayed in turn. The College was involved in a full on slave revolt before - why not see if we can top that?

For all the people who hate the Dark Elves - this is a rare opportunity to fuck them over, and as far as I can tell the only arguments against it are 'Mathilde and the Empire will auto-lose vs. Morathi, because of numbers stated or unstated' or 'Moral ambiguity? In my good Christian Ranaldian Grey Wizard quest? Not on my watch!'. I've yet to hear an argument in this thread against interacting with the Druuchi that doesn't reek of either absolute defeatism or overly-conscientious hand-wringing.

No one's suggesting we let them pack our parachutes. Mathilde is an operator - let her operate, for the love of god.
 
Well, a interesting update all around.

Still, I understand why nobody seems interested in dealing with the Druchi...

They may be offering magic secrets and military suport.

But they aren't offering what Mathilde really wants:
Druchii romance novels so Mathilde can have the most lurid, varied and extensive romance collection in the old world.

Well maybe next time, or maybe when we go to our elf vacation we end up stealing some...
 
@Boney What insights has Mathilde picked up from the Druchii novels she picked up a while ago? I get that they designed to entertain and titillate rather than provide social commentary, but she's surely picked up an idea of what's considered desirable and a handful of social mores.
 
The problem for the High Elves is that they can't fight both the Old World and the Druchii at the same time. The one time they did that was during Caledor II and resulted in the Asur losing a majority of their colonies.

That means that the High Elves either have to cooperate or throw all the carrots. All the carrots. Marienburg? Dumped. Access to select tomes from the White Tower of Hoeth? Granted. The amount of stuff Ulthuan might bribe Mathilde with if we play our cards correctly is immense.

They don't have to cooperate, we're dealing with lore known to a very specific amount of people and brought together only by Mathilde that's not grounds for declaring war, but that is vulnerable to a quick visit or a dozen by Shadow warriors. The stick is still very much on the table, even ignoring that Ulthuan has almost as much internal rivalry as the DE

Remember we're not doing this only for Marienburg, we're also doing this to hurt Chaos more than they've been hurt since the Golden age,, an objective the asur, ironically are dead set against because one misstep (from humans) and their island goes under.

They might give a lot of carrots but those come at the price of stopping the project which could save the world, long term that's never going to be worth it.
 
She gives a negligent shrug. "I cannot speak for all of my kind, just as you cannot speak for all of yours. There are always rabble from Karond Kar who will raid anywhere and feel no compunctions against lying about the provenance of their cargo." She gives you a considering look. "That said, a better understanding between our people might result in all sorts of information flowing back and forth. Clar Karond and Karond Kar are bitter rivals, and Clar Karond would profit if Karond Kar needed to come to them to replace ships lost by a chance encounter with that navy of yours. A few such opportune encounters and they would learn to seek softer shores." She drains her glass and starts craning her neck to seek a refill. "Give the matter some thought. My door will be open to you, should you wish it to be. Dalakoi, Sorceress."
I wouldn't trust the Druuchi at all with the Waystone project, they're too likely to screw it over just to hurt everyone - but the idea that they'll be helpful purely in order to hurt their rivals, that they'd do something that helps protect the Empire out of spite; that is tempting.
 
@Boney What insights has Mathilde picked up from the Druchii novels she picked up a while ago? I get that they designed to entertain and titillate rather than provide social commentary, but she's surely picked up an idea of what's considered desirable and a handful of social mores.
BDSM requires a level of communication and trust that no Druchii would ever place in another person considering their societal structure, so I assume it's actually something like...

God I hate to do this. Do you know Homestuck? If so, then their stories are probably along the lines of Kismesis.

Can't believe I'm referencing Homestuck in the year of our lord 2022.
 
as much as i like the cap'n's vibes, i am opposed to any interaction with DElves that is not "be polite until we can Spread Democracy(tm) to Naggaroth." there aint a spoon long enough to sup with a slaver.
adding to that, Ranald is real, and he would disapprove.
 
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How's about no.

So, full stop- even if we give up literally nothing in the 'deal', we still lose, because any positive they could give us inherently comes with massive negatives.

They stop killing Imperials? Option one- they say they'll stop, and every time a Druchi slave raid happens they throw up their hands and say it definitely wasn't them, we swear. Option two- they actually manage to follow through- every other polity in the Old World notices that the Empire is not being raided by the Druchi anymore and wants to know why. The Empire might not have to deal with them much but that's not true of any of the polities that the Empire would like to be on at least decent terms with. Accepting a deal with the Druchi inherently sours relations with nearly everyone else.

Magic knowledge? Even if it isn't inherently designed to attract or create Dhar, it's sure as shit not going to be designed to avoid its creation. Why would it? It's not like the creation of Dhar bothers the Druchi in any way. Hell, it was pointed out in this very update how the sabotage of magical knowledge begins at the very top- I doubt it ends there.

Waystone knowledge? Information we have to constantly check for traps and verify is worse than useless. Its a time sink, and if we are capable of verifying it we didn't need the information in the first place.

And that's putting aside- actually no, don't put aside the fact that this is a slaving polity who, even while putting their best foot forward, admits to cruelty being the point. That's an extremely vital consideration that should not be forgotten for a second.

'Hard' decisions are not inherently smart ones. 'Realpolitik' is all too often giving up your morals just so you can pat yourself on the back over how pragmatic you are.
 
as a ranaldite, any interaction we have with DElves should boil down to "i am not killing this slaver right the fuck now because X"
where X can be, but is not limited to:
-it would fuck up this other thing we are doing, unfortunately
-I can give them alive to nagarythe
-they can see me coming and i don't like my odds
-I'm outnumbered

If you sit down at a table with 3 slavers, what you have is a table with 4 slavers
 
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While I do get the fear the high elves are going to fuck the empire if they hear of is cooperating with Druchi, I don't think they'd go to war with the empire over it.

Not unless they want war of the beard 2 + Crusades and the empire as well fighting them.

Geopolitically, Ulthuan have only recently returned to the Old World and most of the influence they've developed has been in Marienburg, and the relationship between the Empire and Marienburg is already extremely strained, so they don't really have any levers to influence the Empire with. Even if they start rattling sabers there's not really a whole lot they can actually do, short of razing a few fishing villages and failed trading towns on the coasts of Nordland and Ostland that the Norscans already raze every other decade anyway. They don't really have any way to escalate things beyond that short of sailing up the Reik and besieging Altdorf, which would kick off War of the Beard 2 plus Crusades 2 at the same time and Marienburg would probably balk at and refuse to allow in the first place, or sailing up the Schaukel and besieging Tor Lithanel, which is something the Dwarves of the Golden Age couldn't manage.

So if they can't bring their sticks to bear, all they have is carrots. And even Mathilde wouldn't consider something like "we're pulling the plug on the Waystone thing because Ulthuan gave us back Elf Wizard Dad" a failure state.

Still hesitant to cut a one time deal for waystone codes with the druchi, maybe after a couple of turns if we find out the code's are REALLY necessary to start getting the waystone train going sure. I just want to be able to do lot's of cool shit with waystone's and the High elves sending Teclis to shut it down rubs me the wrong way even if it is ultimately a win Teclis returns to the empire.
 
Were I in conversation with Myrielh, I would point out that basically every comparison she made between goblins and humans was incomplete, demonstrating a commonality of outcome without demonstrating a similar lack of alternatives.

I would, likewise, point out that however efficient slavery is today at producing overall prosperity (without accepting her claim) - necessity is the mother of invention, and those who stand atop the pillars of present day prosperity are often hostile to alternatives that would weaken their position. In-character, maybe slavery is necessary for the druchi prosperity, or maybe it isn't, but it is far less likely that they find a better alternative if their acceptance of slavery is rendered painless to them. As little 'ol mayfly humans, the empire is well disposed towards finding such an alternative far quicker, and any increase in reliance on the druchi opens them to political influence from those in druchi society who would stand to lose if slavery as an institution were replaced.

However affable Myrielh presents herself, she is not all Druchii, after all.

This is all more or less sufficient condition to me to reject any action which enables the encroachment of Druchii influence on the empire, and any dealing with Ylrishen or Myrielh in particular. There is little we even stand to gain from taking those risks when we have the alternative of doubling down on stronger ties to ulthuan with the elfcation, and have the waystone project as an alternative to the Druchii as a stick to get ulthuan to put more chips on the table.

A personal transaction though, where we could isolate the institutions of the empire and Eonir from the institutions and power brokers of the Druchii? That might be more feasible. Perhaps with Captain Maktig, if we gain the opportunity to vet them further. Even if the society and its institutions are corrupting, if we find a suitable individual to work with, it's not unthinkable - we just have to sharply limit the scope to those we can trust, and keep it under the table so others don't take our example as proof of opportunity they can get in on with less scruples.

And yes, "suitable" can include "was uninvolved with the slave trade". Again, the bottom line is that it's dangerous and risky, especially in the long term, to open relations with the dark elves as a polity - but that individuals within might be feasible, if we can find the right one(s).
 
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I don't see why you need special, secret commands to sabatoge the waystone network, when routine diagnostic and repair commands can probably do the same thing. Sure, Command A and Command B running at the same time can cause the enchantment to melt but not if you also use Command C at the same time. And if you only share Command A and Command B, you can sit back and smile, knowing that Dhar is going to become more prevalent pretty soon.
 
I'm frankly astounded that anyone's even considering working with the Druchi in any capacity, rather than merely milking the situation for more concessions from the Asur - who would at least give us reliable information, since not doing so would fuck them over even worse than than it would us.
I honestly have my doubts we could bring Asur to the table at all for Waystone knowledge; Asur have only ever drip-fed humans Waystone knowledge when they had no other choice - like when the Druids turned out to already be tapping them for power using their own rites.

Doubly so when we're already teamed up with Kislev, i.e. 'those guys who turned their waystone network into a loop that benefits Kislev, not Ulthuan.' Any Asur is going to hear Kislev's involved and go "stone-wall those guys, lest the other six members of the Project do the same thing!"

Mathilde herself has discovered multiple pieces of knowledge Teclis could have given the Colleges and did not, most recently 'how to make Orbs of Power.'
 
BDSM requires a level of communication and trust that no Druchii would ever place in another person considering their societal structure, so I assume it's actually something like...

God I hate to do this. Do you know Homestuck? If so, then their stories are probably along the lines of Kismesis.

Can't believe I'm referencing Homestuck in the year of our lord 2022.

I know Homestuck is a thing that exists, but I can't say I know anything about it.

They stop killing Imperials? Option one- they say they'll stop, and every time a Druchi slave raid happens they throw up their hands and say it definitely wasn't them, we swear. Option two- they actually manage to follow through- every other polity in the Old World notices that the Empire is not being raided by the Druchi anymore and wants to know why. The Empire might not have to deal with them much but that's not true of any of the polities that the Empire would like to be on at least decent terms with. Accepting a deal with the Druchi inherently sours relations with nearly everyone else.

So the Dreadlord gave us a really good excuse for this. She said that the raiders come from Karond Kar, and that she would be happy to assist the Empire in wiping out their fleets—partly because her city, Clar Karond, builds ships and sells them to Karond Kar. After losing a few fleets to Empire, it would no longer be profitable for Karond Kar to attack the Empire, and so they would seek to raid elsewhere. This would allow the Empire to also boast of its naval prowess to other nations—"We wiped out several Druchii raiding fleets". Meanwhile, our friends in Clar Karond are profiting from the sudden rise in demand for new boats. Imperial citizens stop dying, Karond Kar is impoverished, and the navy gets a boost to its fame and prestige, and Clar Karond gets the trade it needs without having to loot it from hostile states.

Yeah, it's a little worrying that she's willing to sell out her countrymen—except it's more like a rival city state that owes allegiance to the same king, than a single cohesive state, and one whom she's in a longstanding rivalry with anyway.

I don't see why you need special, secret commands to sabatoge the waystone network, when routine diagnostic and repair commands can probably do the same thing. Sure, Command A and Command B running at the same time can cause the enchantment to melt but not if you also use Command C at the same time. And if you only share Command A and Command B, you can sit back and smile, knowing that Dhar is going to become more prevalent pretty soon.

I'm pretty sure the intelligence within the network would see this happening and fix it. Remember, these commands are not cheat codes, they are instructions that can be ignored and overridden by the controlling intelligence. And we've already learned that he has very little patience for games.
 
We've stolen from the orcs and goblins. We've stolen from the Skaven. We've stolen from Chaos. We've stolen from the vampires. We've stolen literal booty from the spirits of the forest.


I think it's high time we steal more from the Druchi than a single vacation ticket. This will unfortunately require interacting with them, but that's kind of a requirement for pulling a con.
 
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They don't have to cooperate, we're dealing with lore known to a very specific amount of people and brought together only by Mathilde that's not grounds for declaring war, but that is vulnerable to a quick visit or a dozen by Shadow warriors. The stick is still very much on the table, even ignoring that Ulthuan has almost as much internal rivalry as the DE

Considering the project has the Grey Lords; a prominent Dwarf Runelord; an Ice Witch specifically backed by Kislev and multiple LMs from different Colleges it is safe to say that a quick visit from Shadow warriors is a good way to end up with a quick war by at least half of the Old World - one that brings humans, dwarfs and elves against Ulthuan without any sort of guarantee that the Waystone project notes are actually going to be destroyed.

'Hard' decisions are not inherently smart ones. 'Realpolitik' is all too often giving up your morals just so you can pat yourself on the back over how pragmatic you are.

Hmm... I'd be fairly leery of saying a hard no to the Druchi on purely moral grounds since we're playing the Grey Lady Magister - spymaster, assassin and general dabbler in all the grey areas.

That said there's a lot of pragmatic reasons to not take the deal. Like morals, shmorals - we've just seen that even a full blown Druchi sorceress gets casually toyed with and sabotaged by Morathi and that this is the standard treatment. We also haven't seen much of a promise for relations beyond simple trade other than 'let's work together on stuff that'd hurt Ulthuan'.

I honestly have my doubts we could bring Asur to the table at all for Waystone knowledge; Asur have only ever drip-fed humans Waystone knowledge when they had no other choice - like when the Druids turned out to already be tapping them for power using their own rites.

Doubly so when we're already teamed up with Kislev, i.e. 'those guys who turned their waystone network into a loop that benefits Kislev, not Ulthuan.' Any Asur is going to hear Kislev's involved and go "stone-wall those guys, lest the other six members of the Project do the same thing!"

As the Empire and the Old World in general grows stronger the Asur are going to have to deal with us if only to prevent the Empire from taking the same path as Kislev.

"Stone-wall those guys" isn't in any way a trivial exercise - not with four major polities as stockholders.
 
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