Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
The High Elves have had centuries to make nice with the dwarves or cultivate a human nation that they can trust on Ulthuan. They haven't bothered.

Make nice... with the dwarfs, the people who have a pathological need for even recompense no matter the span of time passed and with whom they fought a destructive world war when both polities were vastly more powerful/wealthy? Methinks that is more a case of 'can't pay the price' than 'have not bothered'. I do not think there is enough stuff in Ulthuan to pay back what the dawi would count restitution for the War of Vengeance.
 
Last edited:
Keeping the Waystone network going is a separate thing to political considerations. They didn't do anything when the Empire was ripping itself apart in a three-way civil war for.. however many generations either. So, obviously, a strong Empire isn't that high on their list of considerations.

The empire being there is a good thing but from their point of view it's not any better than Tilia and it's city states. Certainly better than everywhere else they have to keep an eye on. I have no idea how they deal with the bad/blasted/South lands. Nevermind Norsca/Naggarond.

I agree. The Asur DON'T support the other nations protecting the waystones. They are happy to take the magic juice from them but don't support them in defending it.

E: And do the waystones in naggarond still feed ulthuan? The druchii never did anything else with them despite having the knowledge for it? Kislev created a separated network but the druchii are happy to send magic to their bitter enemies?

I do not think there is enough stuff in Ulthuan to pay back when the dawi would count restitution for the War of Vengeance

Just FYI the dwarves consider the war of vengeance to be over and the grudges fulfilled when caledor got killed
 
Last edited:
I think it'd be more a "Won't pay the price". It's hardly as if there isn't a fair deal of bad blood on the elven side about said War. They simply have a better ability to largely get over it.

I agree. The Asur DON'T support the other nations protecting the waystones. They are happy to take the magic juice from them but don't support them in defending it.

Yes, they do. The Elves keep as close an eye on the waystones as they can manage. This does not mean sending an army everytime some local necromancer gets funny ideas, it does mean when things go very wrong the Asur are liable to turn up to put things right.

Also are we back to that? The elves steal magical juice from other nations to empower themselves. Yeah, no. The prime point and purpose of those Waystones is to simply direct magic towards the great vortex and stop it from corrupting the land with a secondary purpose of making sure elven souls don't get eaten by chaos.

Any other use of them is very much a secondary use of them and given that the Empire in general have only recently managed to stop putting their magic users on pyres making sure as much of the magic as can be drained away goes this is hardly some underhanded plot.
 
Last edited:
I absolutely believe the Elves could have made nice with the Dwarves in the thousands of years of enmity they've shared. But crucially, the Dwarves could have done it, too. They didn't. And nobody seems to be mad at the Dwarves for that, so why are you mad at the Elves?
 
Last edited:
I agree. The Asur DON'T support the other nations protecting the waystones. They are happy to take the magic juice from them but don't support them in defending it.

E: And do the waystones in naggarond still feed ulthuan? The druchii never did anything else with them despite having the knowledge for it? Kislev created a separated network but the druchii are happy to send magic to their bitter enemies?

There are no waystones in the Land of Chill, no more than there are any in Norsca, the dark elves can deal with the Dhar background and they do not care what happens to their slaves. They can always get more
 
Er... no, god merciful Ranald, no. Go back and read Kragg's opinion of the high elves, just because the dawi do not think they are at war does not mean they would be willing to ally with the high elves without ruinous, impossible restitution

Whether Cathay is a 'human nation' is a complicated question when they're ruled by a dragon and the moon (?) and their children so I wasn't including it in that category. Also Dwarves really don't want to genocide all Elves everywhere, they called the matter settled after the death of Caledor II, four thousand years ago. So condemning all the human nations on an entire continent because some of them are friendly with a polity that dropped their enmity millennia before most of the nations on that continent existed still isn't a great look for Ulthuan.

Calling the manner settled and having dropped the enmity millennia ago doesn't sound like it's impossible to get friendly relations. Kragg is not the High King, this would not be the only thing where he disagrees.

There are no waystones in the Land of Chill, no more than there are any in Norsca, the dark elves can deal with the Dhar background and they do not care what happens to their slaves. They can always get more

Yeah, but tyrion said that the Asur are somehow managing the waystones in norsca and naggarond which would be a point in their favour

I absolutely believe the Elves could have made nice with the Dwarves in the thousands of years of enmity they've shared. But crucially, the Dwarves could have done it, too. They didn't. And nobody seems to be mad at the Dwarves for that, so why are you mad at the Elves?

I am mad at the dwarves too, their friendly relationship just made up for it

Any other use of them is very much a secondary use of them and given that the Empire in general have only recently managed to stop putting their magic users on pyres making sure as much of the magic as can be drained away goes this is hardly some underhanded plot

We have the example of Kislev to show that the waystones can be used to strengthen the nation they are based in
 
Last edited:
There are no waystones in the Land of Chill, no more than there are any in Norsca, the dark elves can deal with the Dhar background and they do not care what happens to their slaves. They can always get more

There actually is. Probably not that many elven-created ones but the Old ones left Menhirs behind as well and the way stone network is very much built upon that network. Though how much effort they put into keeping an eye on those areas is up for consideration. The purpose is, after all, for draining magic away

We have the example of Kislev to show that the waystones can be used to strengthen the nation they are based in

We have an example of Boney expanding the lore and then people extrapolating upon that to try and make the Asur out to be thieving assholes. Because god forbid that the Asur ever do anything good in this thread.

The waystones draining magic away is not some underhanded plot. It is their intent and purpose. That said magic could be used to empower a nation? Great. Until 300/200 years ago about the only thing leaving the magic would have done to the empire is leave it a magic festering hellhole. We don't even know that what Kislev is doing is a good idea.
 
There actually is. Probably not that many elven-created ones but the Old ones left Menhirs behind as well and the way stone network is very much built upon that network. Though how much effort they put into keeping an eye on those areas is up for consideration. The purpose is, after all, for draining magic away

Old One menhirs are not Waystones though. While the might stabilize the area around them a bit they would have no reason to send power to the Vortex and they are manifestly not enough to keep Dhar background low, if they were the elves and dwarfs would not have had to build the Vortex and Network.
 
Old One menhirs are not Waystones though. While the might stabilize the area around them a bit they would have no reason to send power to the Vortex and they are manifestly not enough to keep Dhar background low, if they were the elves and dwarfs would not have had to build the Vortex and Network.

No, they're not, but the Waystone network was built everywhere. This was even before the sundering so there's no reason the elves couldn't, wouldn't, build them in Naggarond/Norsca. Though how much effort, again, they put into maintaining them i've no idea.

I expect not much. Ones full of murderous dark god worshiping assholes. The other is full of Norscans.
 
I don't know what y'all are talking about. The Dwarfs have clearly laid out a clear path for making nice with them. The Phoenix King just needs to go to Karaz a Karak and grovel in front of the Throne of the High King to get the Phoenix Crown back. Just like Caledor II told the ambassador all those years ago :V
 
Lots of power fantasies and donut steels, and they seem to really be into the dynamic of someone who thinks they're a top being out-topped. They definitely respect double-dealing and treachery, but they also seem to place value on knowing when and where to apply it. The expectation is that people will go along with arrangements when they're beneficial or when they don't have the upper hand to renegotiate them, instead of just stabbing every back that might be in reach for the sake of stabbing backs. Betrayal as an exercise of ambition, rather than for its own sake.

The James Bond books would not be out of place in the Druchii corpus... though that might say more about the James Bond books than the Druchii.

James Bond being an idealised Druchii hero was not a take I was expecting, but having read a Bond novel, is one I am fully on board with.

And as awful as the Bond novels are, this is actually kinda reassuring to me—James Bond might be a violent, misogynistic sociopath, but he's one with a pretty clear cut mission and everything he does is in service to that mission. He doesn't betray people for the lols, he betrays people because it advances his objectives.

The Druchii won't backstab us unless it's to their profit to do that—and I've seen nothing to suggest that screwing over the Empire in economic and political relations would do that.

The Druchii's main objective is to screw over the Asur. Propping up the rival of one of the Asur's client states through trade and military support is a pretty good way of doing that, and one we can benefit from massively.

Also I find it a bit... Odd that we've done a full 180 from "we can't give the Druchii a political foothold because they'll divide and conquer the Empire like the British did to India" to "Actually, it's okay for the Asur to divide and conquer the Empire like the British did to India because the Asur are defenders of the Civilised World, much like how the British Empire were the defenders of the Civilised World".

Like, the Asur hold literally Imperialistic views, and barely consider the human nations to be "civilised". They had colonies in Araby. Marienburg is a colony in all but name. And we've heard rumours that Erengard in Kislev is looking to Marienburg as an example. If that's not evidence enough that the Asur are trying to break apart the Old World so they have exclusive control over every port, then I don't know what is.

But it's okay, because they are the good guys, and thousands of them die defending democracy the Vortex, and that gives them the moral right to dictate policy to other nations.

My point is, the Asur are not some sort of idealised, objective "good". That doesn't exist in this setting. They are people. Rude, arrogant, haughty people, with a longstanding imperialistic culture and the possession and guardianship of a major feat of magical work left behind by their ancestors.

And it's not wrong to tell them to get off their fucking high horse and treat with us like equals, or else we'll go to their rivals who actually seem interested in sharing actionable information with us about the world, about magic, and about the military movements of fleets across the sea.

The Empire is not a child to be condescended to by the high and might Asur—they are a powerful and rich culture that deserves equal standing and respect, and if they have to get that respect by considering offers from the Druchii before the Asur wake up, then so be it.

No, they're not, but the Waystone network was built everywhere. This was even before the sundering so there's no reason the elves couldn't, wouldn't, build them in Naggarond/Norsca. Though how much effort, again, they put into maintaining them i've no idea.

I expect not much. Ones full of murderous dark god worshiping assholes. The other is full of Norscans.

I thought it was heavily implied that the Waystone network was limited to the Old World—there aren't any in the Badlands or the Darklands, and they only built three in Kislev (with the Ice Witches somehow building a fourth).
 
I thought it was heavily implied that the Waystone network was limited to the Old World—there aren't any in the Badlands or the Darklands, and they only built three in Kislev (with the Ice Witches somehow building a fourth).

Possibly that's Boneys read of it. So far as the actual wiki/lexicon on it goes. They built the things everywhere. Which i suppose. Why not? chaos was gone, and everyone else was friends. You May as well just keep building the things and go for as global a coverage as possible.

As to the rest. This is simply pushback against this threads persistent need/desire to make out the Asur to be somehow the greatest assholes of the setting and everything they do down to underhanded reasoning.

Yes, they are people but there's a difference between "push back against the Asur" and working with a nation who are as bad as any bloodthirsty vampire. Worse, really. I don't think all the vampires across the entire world have ever managed to approach the level of suffering the Druchi have inflicted upon both the world and themselves.

Yeah, the Marienburg thing is shitty. This doesn't mean allying with the Druchi. Hell. If anything that's just proof positive that the Asur should double down and pour more support into Marienburg. Anyone willing to work with the Druchi is obviously insane and our client needs helping. So i guess well done? You've managed to become part of a proxy war between Druchi and Asur. I suppose that's one way of spending less Elven lives in that conflict.

You want the Asur to stop screwing around in Marienburg? You make it economically unattractive. The Asur, more like Lothern/Cothique in this case are not in it for land or territory. They're in it for the money. Pull the Druchi in and you're expanding the conflict massively.

Alongside working with, again, people who make the Von Carsteins seem benevolent.
 
Oh, absolutely the Asur are just people. People with many flaws.

I'm not saying we shouldn't entertain the idea of furthering the Druchii angle. I'm just saying don't disrespect the Asur or ignore their heroism just because they're arrogant or whatever. The Elves aren't perfect, but they're exactly as terrible as Humans and Dwarves, so let's not be hypocritical in our criticism.

Also, context matters. Entertaining the idea that they are both merely third parties we can play against each other, when one is a genocidal viking slave empire, and the other has saved the world countless times, is kind of fucked up. Helping out the Druuchi in any meaningful way and justifying it by saying the Elves are occasionally enemies of the Empire is kind of fucked up. Our actions don't exist in a vacuum, and not all of the Empires enemies should be treated the same way.
 
Last edited:
Possibly that's Boneys read of it. So far as the actual wiki/lexicon on it goes. They built the things everywhere. Which i suppose. Why not? chaos was gone, and everyone else was friends. You May as well just keep building the things and go for as global a coverage as possible.
Mostly because even at their height they still didn't really have a presence in THAT much of the world?
 
The Druchii won't backstab us unless it's to their profit to do that—and I've seen nothing to suggest that screwing over the Empire in economic and political relations would do that.
Allow me to posit a hypothetical then. Druchii gives us a code to activate a Waystone. Unbeknownst to us, the code sends a signal to Ulthuan, perhaps as part of an emergency or maintenance system. Ulthuan sends forces to investigate. If said forces are rebuffed, tensions escalate. If they find out what we are doing, same thing. As a result of the escalating tensions, parts of the Asur navy are diverted to Marienburg. This diverting of ships means that the Druchii have a freer hand in raiding. There, a tangible motive from the Druchii screwing us over, assuming potentially tanking relations between the Asur and the governments behind the Waystone Project isn't motive enough.
 
Question, is there anything in the thread about exactly what happened at Grootscher march? Because all I've been able to find is that the Sea Elves who lived in the city helped the Marienburgers. Which definitely isn't the same as "Elvish warhost was dispatched by the Phoenix Throne to establish a vassal".

It's not unreasonable the elves that chose to live in Marienburg could be swayed to protect the city from an incoming army, rather than it be Perfidious Ulthuan's Foreign Machinations.
 
Question, is there anything in the thread about exactly what happened at Grootscher march? Because all I've been able to find is that the Sea Elves who lived in the city helped the Marienburgers. Which definitely isn't the same as "Elvish warhost was dispatched by the Phoenix Throne to establish a vassal".

It's not unreasonable the elves that chose to live in Marienburg could be swayed to protect the city from an incoming army, rather than it be Perfidious Ulthuan's Foreign Machinations.

A quick check? Ulthuan proper had nothing to do with it. The Sea Elf residents of the city gave aid to the Marienburg militia who lured the imperial army into quicksand.

Since then i'm guessing Ulthuan largely lent it's support to Marienburg independence and that's been the state of play since.

So, functionally. Marienburg declared it's independence. It's elven residents gave aid. Ulthuan came in later to guarantee that independence.

So less perfidious Ulthuan trying to gain a vassal. More noble High Elves giving aid to a battered polity who merely wish to decide their own fate.

Well, probably not the second to be honest. More like "oh, there's gold to be made from this" and rolling with it. I expect Ulthuan ships get very favorable rates in Marienburg.
 
Last edited:
A quick check? Ulthuan proper had nothing to do with it. The Sea Elf residents of the city gave aid to the Marienburg militia who lured the imperial army into quicksand.

Since then i'm guessing Ulthuan largely lent it's support to Marienburg independence and that's been the state of play since.
Wonder what kind of support that even entailed? Just continuing to do business as usual? Marienburg was still run by the same people as before they declared independence, so maybe it was more Ulthuan going "ok, cool, you guys have fun with that" and that was taken as tacit support rather than just going along with something that was already done and dusted?
 
Marienburg is Utlhuans main point of entry to the empire market. Ulthuan's never shown to have an interest in conquering other lands or vassals for that matter. Much as they're written as somewhat of a fantasy esque British empire, noblesse oblige, overwheening arrogance and all there's never been anything approaching the east India company or even anything close to it. Their colonizing days are long past and were back in the days when the newest human invention was the mud pit. They don't even vassalise. They're insular traders. Strange as that is.

Fears of India esque imperialism are simply that. Fears.

As such. I'd assume an independence guarantee for extremely favorable port rates and that's likely about where it ends.
 
I think I remember Boney saying that Ulthuan was definitely involved in defending Marienburg, and because it was our most recent interaction with them the Empire dislikes the Elves because of it. I'll see if I can find the post.

EDIT:
The Asur, whose involvement in the Old World involves sending three dudes to protect the Old World against the Everchosen and then sending a fuckload more dudes to help slaughter an Imperial Army in the Battle of Grootscher Marsh to support Marienburg's secession. See Point One.

Which is particularly prominent in a lot of minds currently, because the only reason Marienburg feels confident to threaten a full blockade of the Empire in response to the canals is because of the continued protection of the Asur. Which also means that in a lot of minds right now, Point One of Empire Naval Policy is echoing very loudly.
He's never brought up a difference between Sea Elves and High Elves as far as I can remember. They're both Asur. considering the Sea Elves are still part of Ulthuan, I think in canon and quest canon the Empire has very legitimate grievences against them. Because Fuck Marienburg.
 
Last edited:
Voting is open
Back
Top