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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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notanautomaton said:
I'm not convinced that a Malekith victory would doom the world. He'd seem inclined to want to keep the world going, since that's where he keeps his stuff.
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I don't see Malekith winning while the vortex is still going, so it would most likely doom the world.
And even if he somehow manages to take the vortex intact, you now have one less "good(ish)" polity and one lot more powerful evil polity free to fuck around with dhar and destroy everything indiscriminately eventually destroying the worlds ability to actually keep chaos from eating the world.

Malekith might not want to destroy the world, but i don't see him winning without destroyingthe world as a consequence.
 
Voikirium said:
Yes, but it's a better look than most of the options that are usually offered and adds some nuance. I also mostly don't...like. I don't have any particular problem with the idea that for the average Dwarf, the Phoenix Crown means that the war is over but I just straight up do not buy that there are no Dwarfs, or indeed groups of dwarfs, still mad about it who have some real ideas. And then there is that shit they keep getting up to in Wydrioth, trying to attack it for, I imagine, fuel, with no particular provocation on the part of the Elves in at least the first instance.


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But then why is ulthuan allowed to support the enemies of the empire and weaken it, but the empire isn't allowed to do the same in reverse?
 
reignonyrparade said:
IS it self evident? The Empire frankly probably does a hell of a lot more fighting things that would love to harm the waystone network than the Asur do because the Empire is a lot more accessible to All Of Those Things. It isn't DEFINITELY the case that the Empire spends more blood and treasure keeping the Vortex running than the Asur do but it frankly isn't definitely not the case either?
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Yes? The empire does those things in the Empire.

The Asur, by comparison, are concerned with the way stone network as a world wide endeavor. Which means keeping an eye on any areas that don't have nations atop them that can be largely expected to be sane while only intervening in said nations when shit is going seriously south.

To be fair i'd expect the Lizardmen also might be fairly active in keeping the network going. Though given they also don't seem to have had any hand in putting it in place i might be giving them too much credit. The way stone network was, after all, certainly not part of any Great Plan.
 
NSchwerte said:
I am not convinced the waystone network could survive the destruction of the empire waystone network. You would only have brettonia and the Southlands waystones remaining
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Even if the world couldn't survive without the Empires waystones, which it absolutely could, the Empire doesn't have to deal with a concentrated effort to destroy every waystone the same way the Elves have to defend the vortex. And the the Empire still fuck up so much it's a noticeable loss to the waystone network. And again, the Asur die by the millions to defend the vortex they created, and they have done this for thousand upon thousands of years.
 
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NSchwerte said:
But then why is ulthuan allowed to support the enemies of the empire and weaken it, but the empire isn't allowed to do the same in reverse?
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Beyond the entire thing about the Asur going extinct and really not wanting to exacerbate it:

Nobody is saying we like it, we're saying that wildly unfair to compare Ulthuan and Naggarond, and backing the latter is immensely stupid. After all, the Dwarves have, multiple times in Imperial History, shoved a small army through Imperial lands and killed hundreds of Imperials to avenge one grudge, which is a tad worse than backing Marienburg, but we're still alright.

If you want to screw with a high elf ally, go after Marienburg, (and they'll probably barely notice a difference anyways, because a century to them is about… a slow year for us). *Do not* back the Druuchi, the people responsible for at least 50% for why Warhammer is grimdark and the slow extinction of both dwarves and high elves.
 
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NSchwerte said:
But then why is ulthuan allowed to support the enemies of the empire and weaken it, but the empire isn't allowed to do the same in reverse?
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Marienburg are not the Druchi.
Individual Druchi might be some variety of rational. Malekith isn't and any deal with the Druchi, ultimately, goes back to him.
Druchi talk nice and can spout nice logic but you can say the same of Chaos Cultists and it's about as wise to make any kind of deal with them.

There is no deal with the Druchi that isn't poison, no relationship that isn't unhealthy, and no common cause that can be entered into without a knife in the back.

Asur can be arrogant. Druchi don't consider humans people enough to be arrogant too.
 
NSchwerte said:
But then why is ulthuan allowed to support the enemies of the empire and weaken it, but the empire isn't allowed to do the same in reverse?
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I mean, I generally don't think you should because I like the Asur, and in this specific case I wouldn't do it because the Druchii are bad actually and for everyone, but there's not some ontological reason not to, and in the unfolding expanse of time and infinity I imagine there will come a time when I would unhappily back it even on a moral level.
 
AsuraAtlas said:
Even if the world couldn't survive without the Empires waystones, which it absolutely could, the Empire doesn't have to deal with a concentrated effort to destroy every waystone the same way the Elves have to defend the vortex. And the the Empire still fuck up so much it's a noticeable loss to the waystone network. And again, the Asur die by the millions to defend the vortex they created, and they have done this for thousand upon thousands of years.
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90% of their enemies aren't actually there for the Vortex. If the Cathayan emperor had been the one to spin up the vortex or something like it way back when, Norscan raiders, Druuchi, Grom the Paunch, all of those people would still be totally fucking stoked to invade Ulthuan. They genuinely aren't dieing by the millions to defend the vortex, they're dying to defend themselves and yes it is genuinely fortunate for everyone else that the vortex is incidentally getting defended, Not Laying Down To Be Murdered isn't really some... special act? Most people Don't Lay down To Be Murdered.
 
Tyrion77 said:
Yes? The empire does those things in the Empire.

The Asur, by comparison, are concerned with the way stone network as a world wide endeavor. Which means keeping an eye on any areas that don't have nations atop them that can be largely expected to be sane while only intervening in said nations when shit is going seriously south.

To be fair i'd expect the Lizardmen also might be fairly active in keeping the network going. Though given they also don't seem to have had any hand in putting it in place i might be giving them too much credit. The way stone network was, after all, certainly not part of any Great Plan.
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But the HElves never... did that for the empire? They sent teclis and friends to help Magnus and build the magic colleges, which is good and strengthens the empire. But they also supported the secession of Marienburg, which weakened the empire a lot.

It seems like they intervene when they want stuff from the old world, wether that is protection for their power source or a trade patsy. They aren't sending expeditions out of the goodness of their hearts.

Voikirium said:
I generally don't think you should because I like the Asur
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I agree, the Asur are cool and I don't want to weaken them, but I fear that if we just let them do whatever they want without ever pushing back because they are part of the Order people they will continue to keep up the current relationship without change
 
reignonyrparade said:
90% of their enemies aren't actually there for the Vortex. If the Cathayan emperor had been the one to spin up the vortex or something like it way back when, Norscan raiders, Druuchi, Grom the Paunch, all of those people would still be totally fucking stoked to invade Ulthuan. They genuinely aren't dieing by the millions to defend the vortex, they're dying to defend themselves and yes it is genuinely fortunate for everyone else that the vortex is incidentally getting defended, Not Laying Down To Be Murdered isn't really some... special act? Most people Don't Lay down To Be Murdered.
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When you happen to be the state that is built around the 'kill everyone' button, yes. To put this another way whether or not Ulthuan has a special moral virtue they are protecting something the whole world wants safe, which means the whole world has some interest in them remaining strong. By contrast the Druchi want to wipe them out, so weakening Ulthuan and strengthening the Dark Elves is directly opposed to the preservation of the world. Now you can argue that some degree of imperiling the world so we can fuck up Marianburg is acceptable, but personally I do not see it.
 
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reignonyrparade said:
90% of their enemies aren't actually there for the Vortex. If the Cathayan emperor had been the one to spin up the vortex or something like it way back when, Norscan raiders, Druuchi, Grom the Paunch, all of those people would still be totally fucking stoked to invade Ulthuan. They genuinely aren't dieing by the millions to defend the vortex, they're dying to defend themselves and yes it is genuinely fortunate for everyone else that the vortex is incidentally getting defended, Not Laying Down To Be Murdered isn't really some... special act? Most people Don't Lay down To Be Murdered.
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This probably won't comfort you, but everything you just said is on top of the Chaos, Dark Elf and Skaven operations to go hit up the Vortex. The part where they also hit up Ulthuan in those cases is coincidental, just like how their other attacks on Ulthuan because they hate the HE coincidentally hit the Vortex defenders.

This is also why they are going extinct.
 
DragonParadox said:
When you happen to be the state that is built around the 'kill everyone button' yes. To put this another way whether or not Ulthuan has a special moral virtue they are protecting something the whole world wants safe, which means the whole world has some interest in them remaining strong. By contrast the Druchi want to wipe them out, so weakening Ulthuan and strengthening the Dark Elves is directly opposed to the preservation of the world. Now you can argue that some degree of imperiling the world so we can fuck up Marianburg is acceptable, but personally I do not see it.
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The argument as I read it is ABOUT the special moral virtue right now, you can't go "whether or not" about that.

Shine said:
This probably won't comfort you, but everything you just said is on top of the Chaos, Dark Elf and Skaven operations to go hit up the Vortex. The part where they also hit up Ulthuan in those cases is coincidental, just like how their other attacks on Ulthuan because they hate the HE coincidentally hit the Vortex defenders.

This is also why they are going extinct.
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I did say 90%. I recognize that deliberate attacks on the Vortex specifically do happen.

I am simply not convinced that Asur "die in the millions" because of those attacks.
 
Horologer said:
I suggest telling the Druchii that of course the Empire would be happy to have a prosperous, peaceful relationship with them, and then politely agree to absolutely nothing.

Because it's true: it really would be great for the Empire if the Druchii were trading with them instead of enslaving fishing villages. But we just don't know enough about the Druchii in general to make any sort of deal in good conscience, and what we do know about them, both in- and out-of-character, is... not encouraging, to put it diplomatically.
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Eh, we can make deals in perfectly good conscience.
They exist and are a superpower where we are...definitely a middle power, assuming the Empire actually acts in concert this time.
Don't buy their slaves, don't sell them slaves, don't sell them strategic intel/goods(well if we had any outside of common stock), and we have normal trade activity.

Not exactly a magic bullet for peace and security but Druchii getting mad at Druchii for disrupting their business is to our benefit, as is Ulthuan being forced to bargain rather than dictate, in order to preserve their interests.
 
reignonyrparade said:
I am simply not convinced that Asur "die in the millions" because of those attacks.
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I agree, but only because if there is ever something that causes the Asur to die by the millions, they will go extinct, and then so will we. They have still created and defended the Vortex at the expense of tens of thousands of Elves over several millenia.

And it's a lot more than 10% of their woes that are caused by their garrisoning the Vortex.

Edit: I think the worst thing is, the Dark Elves are living proof that if the Asur just threw up their hands, went as isolationist as possible while still keeping the world on life support and just turned inwards instead of constantly sailing around trying to kill Black Arks and obliterate Norscan fleets, they'd almost certainly recover their numbers in a millenia or two.

But they won't. Such is not in their nature.
 
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I assume after the many thousand of years of being invaded fairly often, they would have at least a few million deaths, even if only a small amount of Elves die each time. But maybe I'm overestimating the High Elven population.

Regardless, my point was that they as a species have taken on extreme amounts of pain and grief, all for the sake of saving the vortex. The vortex they created. Without which the world would have ended long ago. And they have continued to do so. For millennia. They deserve to be treated with at least a little bit of respect for that, don't you think?
 
DragonParadox said:
Maybe not, but Morathi is inclined that way and he is his mother's creature at the end of the day, much as he pretends otherwise. Those strings have been laid long, long ago.
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Last I was aware Morathi didn't want the world to blow up either, it's counter productive to her continued survival, which has generally been her first priority

And no, her connection with the Cult of Pleasure doesn't mean she wants to feed the world to Chaos
 
Shine said:
I agree, but only because if there is ever something that causes the Asur to die by the millions, they will go extinct, and then so will we. They have still created and defended the Vortex at the expense of tens of thousands of Elves over several millenia.

And it's a lot more than 10% of their woes that are caused by their garrisoning the Vortex.

Edit: I think the worst thing is, the Dark Elves are living proof that if the Asur just threw up their hands, went as isolationist as possible while still keeping the world on life support and just turned inwards instead of constantly sailing around trying to kill Black Arks and obliterate Norscan fleets, they'd almost certainly recover their numbers in a millenia or two.

But they won't. Such is not in their nature.
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If the elves want someone else to die to protect the Vortex they should let someone else live on Ulthuan. Except they never will, so they have to bear that burden on their own.
 
shepsquared said:
If the elves want someone else to die to protect the Vortex they should let someone else live on Ulthuan. Except they never will, so they have to bear that burden on their own.
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Who, though?

The dwarves hate them, the ogres can't be trusted, humans… are humans, and seem to fall to Chaos at the drop of an artisanal elven pin, and I don't think they actually remember halfling exist half the time.

Edit: Now I just said that, though…
*eyes the Moot*.
Hm.
 
Also, even if their refusal to let anyone else help is some sort of failing, that doesn't take away from the fact they are still actively saving the world. They can be imperfect while still being heroic. We can acknowledge faults while still praising good qualities. I know we can, because that's what we do for the Dwarves and Humans. But not the Elves, for some reason.
 
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NSchwerte said:
But the HElves never... did that for the empire? They sent teclis and friends to help Magnus and build the magic colleges, which is good and strengthens the empire. But they also supported the secession of Marienburg, which weakened the empire a lot.

It seems like they intervene when they want stuff from the old world, wether that is protection for their power source or a trade patsy. They aren't sending expeditions out of the goodness of their hearts.
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Keeping the Waystone network going is a separate thing to political considerations. They didn't do anything when the Empire was ripping itself apart in a three-way civil war for.. however many generations either. So, obviously, a strong Empire isn't that high on their list of considerations.

The empire being there is a good thing but from their point of view it's not any better than Tilia and it's city states. Certainly better than everywhere else they have to keep an eye on. I have no idea how they deal with the bad/blasted/South lands. Nevermind Norsca/Naggarond.
 
Shine said:
Who, though?

The dwarves hate them, the ogres can't be trusted, humans… are humans, and seem to fall to Chaos at the drop of an artisanal elven pin, and I don't think they actually remember halfling exist half the time.

Edit: Now I just said that, though…
*eyes the Moot*.
Hm.
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The High Elves have had centuries to make nice with the dwarves or cultivate a human nation that they can trust on Ulthuan. They haven't bothered.
 
shepsquared said:
If the elves want someone else to die to protect the Vortex they should let someone else live on Ulthuan. Except they never will, so they have to bear that burden on their own.
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And if the Dwarves wanted an easier life they could give up grudges.

shepsquared said:
The High Elves have had centuries to make nice with the dwarves or cultivate a human nation that they can trust on Ulthuan. They haven't bothered.
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Making nice with the dwarves is an impossibility. We just had a short snippet of a wood elf helping out dwarves fighting green skins and then getting immediately stabbed in the back? The knee? For grudges hundreds/thousands of years old.

What is this inanity? The elves give up their lands and their homes to humans and as they haven't done this they're obviously not as heroic as they should be?

Fundamentally Ulthuan is their home. As sacred to them as the Dwarves holds and Gods.
 
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