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My point is, the Asur are not some sort of idealised, objective "good". That doesn't exist in this setting. They are people. Rude, arrogant, haughty people, with a longstanding imperialistic culture and the possession and guardianship of a major feat of magical work left behind by their ancestors.

And it's not wrong to tell them to get off their fucking high horse and treat with us like equals, or else we'll go to their rivals who actually seem interested in sharing actionable information with us about the world, about magic, and about the military movements of fleets across the sea.

The Empire is not a child to be condescended to by the high and might Asur—they are a powerful and rich culture that deserves equal standing and respect, and if they have to get that respect by considering offers from the Druchii before the Asur wake up, then so be it.
They're the people who are saving the world, and the Druuchi are the people actively trying to end it, on top of literally everything else. Even just using their presence to threaten the High Elves leaves a foul taste in my mouth (if one I could unhappily live with), let alone the hilarious slew of issues any deal of substance with the dark elves would have due to their views on…

well, us, and also their whole society.

The only reason this plan is not as bitter as entertaining Chaos Cultists to make Kislev come to the table is because Dark Elf horrors are, unlike Chaos, not memetically infectious.
 
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I mean the Asur as an entity are causally responsible for the College and thus Mathilde existing, so there is a huge debt to them to begin with. Whatever sophistry their negotiators present to us, there is that background to start with.

Certainly they aren't donating a body of militarily relevant knowledge to us. Even though they characterize the knowledge we do have as scraps, true or not.
 
James Bond being an idealised Druchii hero was not a take I was expecting, but having read a Bond novel, is one I am fully on board with.

And as awful as the Bond novels are, this is actually kinda reassuring to me—James Bond might be a violent, misogynistic sociopath, but he's one with a pretty clear cut mission and everything he does is in service to that mission. He doesn't betray people for the lols, he betrays people because it advances his objectives.

The Druchii won't backstab us unless it's to their profit to do that—and I've seen nothing to suggest that screwing over the Empire in economic and political relations would do that.

The Druchii's main objective is to screw over the Asur. Propping up the rival of one of the Asur's client states through trade and military support is a pretty good way of doing that, and one we can benefit from massively.

Also I find it a bit... Odd that we've done a full 180 from "we can't give the Druchii a political foothold because they'll divide and conquer the Empire like the British did to India" to "Actually, it's okay for the Asur to divide and conquer the Empire like the British did to India because the Asur are defenders of the Civilised World, much like how the British Empire were the defenders of the Civilised World".

Like, the Asur hold literally Imperialistic views, and barely consider the human nations to be "civilised". They had colonies in Araby. Marienburg is a colony in all but name. And we've heard rumours that Erengard in Kislev is looking to Marienburg as an example. If that's not evidence enough that the Asur are trying to break apart the Old World so they have exclusive control over every port, then I don't know what is.

But it's okay, because they are the good guys, and thousands of them die defending democracy the Vortex, and that gives them the moral right to dictate policy to other nations.

My point is, the Asur are not some sort of idealised, objective "good". That doesn't exist in this setting. They are people. Rude, arrogant, haughty people, with a longstanding imperialistic culture and the possession and guardianship of a major feat of magical work left behind by their ancestors.

And it's not wrong to tell them to get off their fucking high horse and treat with us like equals, or else we'll go to their rivals who actually seem interested in sharing actionable information with us about the world, about magic, and about the military movements of fleets across the sea.

The Empire is not a child to be condescended to by the high and might Asur—they are a powerful and rich culture that deserves equal standing and respect, and if they have to get that respect by considering offers from the Druchii before the Asur wake up, then so be it.

The Asur are objectively better than the Druchi, and so are the Imperials, the Bretonians, the Kisdlevites, the dwarfs etc... The Druchi are objectively the worst people who are not Chaos marauders or unliving corpses who see people as cattle. If we choose to 'ally' with the Druchi against the Asur, even temporarily, even as a bluff we are showing that we are the kind of people who would ally with Druchi, who would accept their attacks not just on Ulthuan but on everyone else's coastlines as 'none of our affairs'. Call me crazy but inherent morality aside I do not think the other friendly factions of the Old World would take that well in character. Imagine for a moment that you are a Bretonian Duke whose cousin was spirited away by Druchi corsairs, or a Tilean noble whose betrothed was sacrificed on an Altar of Khaine are you going to shrug and say 'them's the breaks'. Trading with Druchi comes with real reputation detriments with everyone who does have a large enough coastline to have to deal with them.

But wait it gets worse, what will Mariangurg think of this? They who are an ally of the Asur and have significant exposure to both raids and attacks on shipping by the Druchi? Fuck Marianburg right?

I do not think we should stop at that so lightly. Imagine the sheer terror of knowing your former overlord has allies with the slaving human sacrificing demon summoning sea devils. How desperate do you get to stop this? Desperate enough to negotiate? Maybe, or maybe desperate enough to do something rash enough to spark a war. I would like to think the Fuck Marianburg sentiment does not extend to the point where we would be cavalier about a desperate attack from Mariangurg elites who are afraid we will feed them into the Cauldrons of Khaine to pay our unsavory allies.
 
In lighter news, the social turn is almost over. Almost, because we still need to see what Borek has to say about our debt, and we need to speak to Kasmir. Kasmir! We're talking to Kasmir! Kasmir is going to get an entire update practically all to himself! How cool is that? Kasmir is objectively the best, and Kasmir getting the final part of the social turn just shows that Boney is saving the best for last.

Man I've missed Kasmir, and there's no better time to speak to him - nothing to wash down the taste of slavery like some bog water.
 
I'm not going to lie, the discovery that the Druchii are apparently really into the Bane-esque "Do you feel in charge" thing, in both political and romantic/erotic contexts, is making me giggle unreasonably.
 
The High Elves have had centuries to make nice with the dwarves or cultivate a human nation that they can trust on Ulthuan. They haven't bothered.
There is no human nation in the entire world without a significant internal Chaos problem, so that's out, not even mighty Cathay, *maybe* the Tileans/ Estalians, but only because they are very, very far from the poles, which would not be the case here.

And make good with the Dwarves?
….I don't believe it. I just don't, not unless the Dwarves go first.
 
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A quick check? Ulthuan proper had nothing to do with it. The Sea Elf residents of the city gave aid to the Marienburg militia who lured the imperial army into quicksand.

Since then i'm guessing Ulthuan largely lent it's support to Marienburg independence and that's been the state of play since.

So, functionally. Marienburg declared it's independence. It's elven residents gave aid. Ulthuan came in later to guarantee that independence.

So less perfidious Ulthuan trying to gain a vassal. More noble High Elves giving aid to a battered polity who merely wish to decide their own fate.

Well, probably not the second to be honest. More like "oh, there's gold to be made from this" and rolling with it. I expect Ulthuan ships get very favorable rates in Marienburg.

Marienberg is, from the high elven perspective, the next door neighbours to the high elven city of Sith Rionnasc'namishathir, or, as translated, Continental Exarchate of the High Kingdom of Ulthuan.

There's literally an elven city that's considered part of Ulthuan itself within Marienberg, that's been ceded to them. In return Ulthuan have security guarantees to Marienberg.

Marienberg is a combination of ablative armour, and ready made market place to the elven city.

It's also worth remembering that what happened with Marienberg is that the Marienbergers drove out their newly returned imperial colonial overlords with the backing of another great power, but a relatively distant one with limited and mutually advantageous motives. The Empire's desire to conquer their old subjects is not itself virtuous.
 
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We're not trying to swear friendship , we're trying to finesse out secrets about the waystones, which is our entire purpose for being in Laurelorn forest and at this meeting.

I honestly don't see a huge problem with making one of these deals, especially since its coming off of something that Laurelorn negotiated. The colleges briefed Mathilde and made it clear that they trust her to handle it, there's going to be risk, but if we wanted a safe job with no risks we wouldn't have picked the Waystone Project.
 
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We're not trying to swear friendship , we're trying to finesse out secrets about the waystones, which is our entire purpose for being in Laurelorn forest and at this meeting.

I honestly don't see a huge problem with making one of these deals, especially since its coming off of something that Laurelorn already negotiated. The colleges briefed Mathilde and made it clear that they trust her to handle it, there's going to be risk, but if we wanted a safe job with no risks we wouldn't have picked the Waystone Project.

OK, but what do you imagine the Druchi are going to ask for in exchange for ancient secrets only the likes of Maleketh and Morathi are likely to know? I mean do you think us paying that can be kept secret when the fundamental goal of the Druchi and certainly their leadership with the lore is to fuck over the Asur?
 
There is no human nation in the entire world without a significant internal Chaos problem, so that's out, not even mighty Cathay, *maybe* the Tileans/ Estalians, but only because they are very, very far from the poles, which would not be the case here.

And make good with the Dwarves?
….I don't believe it. I just don't, not unless the Dwarves go first.
The elves caused the war by not telling the dwarves about the druchii and also did the far more insulting thing when they shaved the beards of the dwarves. More to the point, the dwarves aren't the seafaring faction and would have far more difficulty even reaching out to Ulthuan. They might not be holding grudges over the war, but the elves would still need to make the first effort to reconnect unless a radical trader from Barak Varr charters a human ship to the one city on Ulthuan he's allowed to be in without getting killed.
 
Honestly, I'd be super down for tricking or stealing from the Dark Elves, or them giving us locations of their enemy houses' boats so we can destroy them, or even short-term trading them some luxuries in exchange for something we want. So long as we don't formalize long term friendly or even diplomatic relations.

But I want them far, far away from the waystone project. I don't even want them to know the waystone project exists. There are so many ways it could go horribly wrong, and there are so few ways they could be of any help whatsoever.
 
also did the far more insulting thing when they shaved the beards of the dwarves.

After the Dwarven heir apparent decided to burn an elven city to the ground or are we just ignoring what Snori Halfhand got up too?

Y'know. Snorri Halfhand. Son of King Gotrek Starbreaker. Wanted to leave his mark on the world, preferably through a war with the high elves. Decided to burn Kor Vanaeth to the ground right before his father sent the ambassadors to Caledor the second?

Or is beard shaving far more insulting than a bit of city razing?
 
The elves caused the war by not telling the dwarves about the druchii and also did the far more insulting thing when they shaved the beards of the dwarves.
I 60% blame the Dark Elves, 30% the immensely stupid HE response, and 10% that Dawi lord who decided to just go burn a city down and wildly jumped the gun. I largely agree with you there, but more importantly:
More to the point, the dwarves aren't the seafaring faction and would have far more difficulty even reaching out to Ulthuan
Have they tried… going to the embassy in the Imperial Capital? Or maybe to Marienburg?

Anyways… both the dwarves and the HE bear the blame of not trying to reconcile. They may never, but if they do, it'll only be through their mutual allies and human generations of patience.

My ultimate thrust, though, is that the Asur have brought their uncontested claim to Shield of Civilisation with immense blood and suffering, and are, in their every day functioning, at worst comparable to the Empire, Bretonnia, the Dwarves, etc (although I think them more altruistic than those, due to what I believe is their canonical forays into Chaos and against Black Arks that are steadily driving them extinct). Even if you don't like them and reasonably work against their botched foreign policies, you should respect them for their immense sacrifice, and *never under nearly any circumstance make a lasting pact of significance with Naggarond*.
 
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Probably but it's nice to point that saying the elves were the sole cause of the war is a rather... incorrect idea of the situation.

I 60% blame the Dark Elves, 30% the immensely stupid HE response, and 10% that Dawi lord who decided to just go burn a city down and wildly jumped the gun. I largely agree with you there, but more importantly:

70% Dark elves. 15% Caledor. 15% Snorri.
It wasn't just any Dwarven lord. It was the High Kings only son and heir.
 
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All rhetorical flourishes aside the offers were: Dreadlord Ylrishen deal is that she/her house gives us intel on her enemies and we kill them and it's presented as some sort of gesture of goodwill and favor (she also pre-excuses further raids on the empire's shores as some elements of Karond Kar will continue raiding wherever). And Sorceress Myrielh offer of magical secrets taught by her mistress, which is undermined be being shown in the update that Ghornd sorceresses are taught wrongly, as a joke, by Morathi.

Those offers are worthless and there's zero reason to trust them.
 
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After the Dwarven heir apparent decided to burn an elven city to the ground or are we just ignoring what Snori Halfhand got up too?

Y'know. Snorri Halfhand. Son of King Gotrek Starbreaker. Wanted to leave his mark on the world, preferably through a war with the high elves. Decided to burn Kor Vanaeth to the ground right before his father sent the ambassadors to Caledor the second?

Or is beard shaving far more insulting than a bit of city razing?
Since it was ordered by the High King of Ulthuan, yeah. Its difficult to say how much was the druchii intervening and how much was normal dwarven/elven pride, but Caledor II was purely on Ulthuan.

Probably but it's nice to point that saying the elves were the sole cause of the war is a rather... incorrect idea of the situation.
The elves caused the war because they didn't tell their allies about the group of violent separatists that had an oathbreaking pretender to the throne, trafficked with black magic and Chaos and would dearly love to do terrible things to both the elves and the dwarves. To the point where some parts of the lore claim the dwarves still don't know the druchii are really a seperate thing from Ulthuan (not canon here I think).
 
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Big Post of Reasons why Dealing with the Druchi is a Bad Idea (TM)
  1. It will damage our standing with all the nations of the old wold that have any semblance of a coastline and probably the dwarfs as well
  2. It might cause Marianburg to panic and cause a war, because you know Druchi are horrifying
  3. ...in other news Druchi are horrifying, particularly so from a Ranaldide perspective, being that they are slaving tyrants
  4. There is no common moral code that would incline them to treat the Empire or Mathilde in particular with anything like fairness
  5. We have seen literally in our first interaction with them that teaching people magic wrong is a common Druchi tactic that they use on each other, we would have nothing to check any Waystone lore against
  6. The people who are likely to have that lore are both the most deceptive and the worst of the Druchi, the Witch King and Morathi
  7. Opening trade relations with them opens the door to all sorts of repulsive trade and also corruption of the spiritual and materials sort, hello there Cult of Pleasure
  8. Did I mention they are actual demon summoners and we do not know how infiltrated they are by the Cult of Pleasure so that even if by some miracle actual usable lore falls from the lips of the Hag Queen it could still easily be warped to serve Chaos in transit
Yeah I think that about covers it and eight is a nice round number
 
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Probably but it's nice to point that saying the elves were the sole cause of the war is a rather... incorrect idea of the situation.



70% Dark elves. 15% Caledor. 15% Snorri.
It wasn't just any Dwarven lord. It was the High Kings only son and heir.
To Caledor's eternal shame, there were ten billion things and ten billion reasons he could've done better by his sworn allies of many prosperous centuries. Beard shaving is not on the moral scale as razing a city, but it did directly contribute to the war to a greater degree.

But also, yes, all my lads blame the Druuchi for two counts of slow genocide and utterly ruining the Old World.
 
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Since it was ordered by the High King of Ulthuan, yeah. Its difficult to say how much was the druchii intervening and how much was normal dwarven/elven pride, but Caledor II was purely on Ulthuan.


The elves caused the war because they didn't tell their allies about the group of violent separatists that had an oathbreaking pretender to the throne, trafficked with black magic and Chaos and would dearly love to do terrible things to both the elves and the dwarves. To the point where some parts of the lore claim the dwarves still don't know the druchii are really a seperate thing from Ulthuan (not canon here I think).

Oh please. You are really going to sit there and pretend that the mass murder of innocents by a nominal friend and ally is more insulting than beard shaving? The high kings son and heir no less razing a city to the ground? Followed by two ambassadors demanding recompense?

There's dwarven apologism and then there's that.

The dark elves, Malekith, caused the war. Elven arrogance and Dwarven stubbornness were a very good tinder.
 
After the Dwarven heir apparent decided to burn an elven city to the ground or are we just ignoring what Snori Halfhand got up too?

Y'know. Snorri Halfhand. Son of King Gotrek Starbreaker. Wanted to leave his mark on the world, preferably through a war with the high elves. Decided to burn Kor Vanaeth to the ground right before his father sent the ambassadors to Caledor the second?

Or is beard shaving far more insulting than a bit of city razing?
I didn't realise we're using the novels as primary canon sources.

You do realise that most of what Snorri Halfhand does is never mentioned in the mainline books? It's novel stuff that the writer did to justify why the Elves decided to go into War.
 
Oh please. You are really going to sit there and pretend that the mass murder of innocents by a nominal friend and ally is more insulting than beard shaving? The high kings son and heir no less razing a city to the ground? Followed by two ambassadors demanding recompense?

There's dwarven apologism and then there's that.

The dark elves, Malekith, caused the war. Elven arrogance and Dwarven stubbornness were a very good tinder.
If only the dwarves knew about Malekith and the dark elves, instead of having to believe that their allies from Ulthuan were ambushing their caravans and destroying their settlements. It's not like the High King showed impressive restraint by requesting his allies provide him an explanation only to be insulted, no he acted as vengeance demanded and immediately marched on the elven colonies.
 
I didn't realise we're using the novels as primary canon sources.

You do realise that most of what Snorri Halfhand does is never mentioned in the mainline books? It's novel stuff that the writer did to justify why the Elves decided to go into War.

Why wouldn't we? Canon is canon. Unless it massively contradicts everything else. It's not like Warhammer has, or ever did, tiers for this stuff.
 
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