No harm done. I think I know what you mean, and if so, then yes, I'm using it.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
No harm done. I think I know what you mean, and if so, then yes, I'm using it.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
More of those Silver Ships again. How intriguing.
Connection or coincidence, I wonder.
Connection or coincidence, I wonder.
MiracleGrow
Miracles for only $19.99 [They/Them]
- Location
- DOOR STUCK DOOR STUCK PLEASE I BEG U
The waystones are made out of Soylent Old Ones! You heard it here first folks!
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
...Is Cartography a skill Mathilde could gain? Even before inventing her MAP, Mathilde has shown some slight aptitude for it.
Do you think that's plausible?Also occupying you on the long road from Drakenhof to Leicheberg is a side-project with your maps and a pot of glue.
Sounds like a great excuse to start learning Anoqeyån and flex Polyglot.
I'd assume from L'Anguille in Bretonnia... which is unfortunate, because we've already been speculating that we should leave Bretonnia mapping until after we recruit a Damsel.
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Interesting. But, "from the west" could mean not just Ulthuan or Albion... but Lustria or Naggaroth. The New World as a whole. (Or it could mean Numenor. 
) Albion feels like the more likely possibility of course, yeah, but...
Hmm, you know, we do have those rubbings that the Asur explorer took. "Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands"
Maybe we should consider looking into this, with the help of Tochter and the Library of Mournings, at some point?
It might be unrelated, it might give something about history of the Lizardmen or mention Silver Ships again, it might mention human populations in Lustria and the Southlands again... (Or, alternatively, the Southlands might have something on the Dwarfs. Or ancient Elf outposts. Or both. Imagine if there were Waystones even as far down as the tip of the Southlands, maintained by Elves and Dwarfs.)
) Albion feels like the more likely possibility of course, yeah, but...Hmm, you know, we do have those rubbings that the Asur explorer took. "Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands"
Maybe we should consider looking into this, with the help of Tochter and the Library of Mournings, at some point?
It might be unrelated, it might give something about history of the Lizardmen or mention Silver Ships again, it might mention human populations in Lustria and the Southlands again... (Or, alternatively, the Southlands might have something on the Dwarfs. Or ancient Elf outposts. Or both. Imagine if there were Waystones even as far down as the tip of the Southlands, maintained by Elves and Dwarfs.)
TimEd
Meteor maker
Eh, if human sacrifice is needed, we'll need to either refine that out of the process, or gut the whole thing and break it down into easier to salvage pieces. We have the knowledge, technology, and disparate cultural histories to pull from.
Hybridizing the whole thing is likely gonna be required for any measure of success anyway, considering how even the elves and dwarves no longer have complete records of how things were done.
Hybridizing the whole thing is likely gonna be required for any measure of success anyway, considering how even the elves and dwarves no longer have complete records of how things were done.
- Location
- Who knows?
Oh ssshhiiitttt. Is it me or does it seem like we're on the precipice of the Jades (or specific faction thereof) potentially getting a humongous, massive, earth shattering amount of legitimacy? The Colleges are pretty universally "Teclic is da man" so being able to claim your predessors were his predecessors peers? And "completed" something the eleves failed at? Successfully? Hooobooyyy.
Not breaking up quotes since idk how to but other thoughts.
- I liked how Caedeth managed to get bamboozled by the Belthani's astological MATH abilities. I don't think Elves are the worst, but it is nice whenever the Elder races have to give kudos imo
- Is it me or is the sheer boringness of the rocks a good thing? The Loralim's issue is that non-Chaos aligned dudes have incentives to dig them up for that sweet sweet gold. While here you'd need a selfless Chaos worshipper willing to vaguely advance the cause with no personal benefit, which doesn't tend to be people that choose to go full Cultist ya know? They tend to be a bit more showy at the very least.
- Ah I see Mathy doing the equivalent of tossing a bucket of cold water over Tocher's head with the "who knows who'll knock" comment. Tocher negaquest might still be freaking out over independent verification of Belthani being linked with ancient elf language and the old ones though.
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- Location
- Space
I really liked this half update.
I particularly enjoyed this reference to real life underestimations of ancient people. (Except in Warhammer the answer might actually be ancient aliens, at least in part.)
This is also generally my favorite approach to post apocalypse. Clear as day to the reader that they're talking about spaceships and terraforming but the characters have no idea because how on earth could they, it's too big of an idea without context.
MiracleGrow
Miracles for only $19.99 [They/Them]
- Location
- DOOR STUCK DOOR STUCK PLEASE I BEG U
Man this update got me really excited as we suddenly veered into DEEP LORE territory. They have all the words but actually uncovering their exact meaning is gonna be a journey in on itself. And the results are gonna shock everyone.
- Pronouns
- He
I think one of the operative questions we need to think about is 'What is a Wayshard doing (pointing to nearest Waystone) as an inanimate* magical object, that a Lady Magister with phenomenal Windsight is unable to do?'.
*Hopefully every Wayshard doesn't come with a complimentary micro-Spite to do the sevir-surveying
Also I think thaumo-topographically (?) , Tributaries are basically piercing the local Stone/soil magic insulation layer in such a manner that the ambient magic slowly trickles down through them into the Leyline. Not sure how much active shunting/sump pumping they're doing.
*Hopefully every Wayshard doesn't come with a complimentary micro-Spite to do the sevir-surveying
Also I think thaumo-topographically (?) , Tributaries are basically piercing the local Stone/soil magic insulation layer in such a manner that the ambient magic slowly trickles down through them into the Leyline. Not sure how much active shunting/sump pumping they're doing.
So, aside from the connection to Incarnate Elementals from human sacrifice, and the whole Aztec angle of pyramids and Old Ones and stuff, there's another thought I've been having.
So, while IIRC it's an 8e-ism to suddenly turn Ulthuan's waystones into soulcairns like it was Eldar and Slaanesh... What if this sort of like that? i.e. What Waystones sometimes, or in some way, do require guidance from the souls of the departed in order to be able to function? Maybe it doesn't have to be death though; maybe it "just" requires the person being able to affect the Aethyric or step into the Aethyr. It's just that for most people to manage that, to influence and affect things On The Other Side, is to... step over to the other side. Also, if it's a permanent job or a job that you can't step away from, it's easier to do that job if you were immortal; a spirit. Spirits don't need rest and don't lose concentration.
From another perspective, Caledor Dragontamer and his fellows stepped into the Vortex and knew they would have to spend the rest of their lives channeling and casting magic, and that they wouldn't be able to step out.
Maybe the only way to avoid human sacrifice, is to either pull a Caledor Dragontamer and just forever be able to do Waystone Guiding Stuff 24/7/365... or.
Or, to be Dwarf-like about it; to nail down to absurd extents and extremes how the Winds of Magic act and what they are allowed to do.
So, you either have to use human sacrifice, extremely fine Dwarfish mathemagical computer programming, spirit-binding to get a spirit to do all this persistently and consistently, calling in a God to handle it or to put a Divine Servant there to do it, or you do a Caledor and go "Fine then, I'll do it myself." Or some other rare things, who knows. Maybe Dragons can do it, the way Elves can. Or maybe special Old One-made materials or runes can do it. Or who knows.
So, while IIRC it's an 8e-ism to suddenly turn Ulthuan's waystones into soulcairns like it was Eldar and Slaanesh... What if this sort of like that? i.e. What Waystones sometimes, or in some way, do require guidance from the souls of the departed in order to be able to function? Maybe it doesn't have to be death though; maybe it "just" requires the person being able to affect the Aethyric or step into the Aethyr. It's just that for most people to manage that, to influence and affect things On The Other Side, is to... step over to the other side. Also, if it's a permanent job or a job that you can't step away from, it's easier to do that job if you were immortal; a spirit. Spirits don't need rest and don't lose concentration.
From another perspective, Caledor Dragontamer and his fellows stepped into the Vortex and knew they would have to spend the rest of their lives channeling and casting magic, and that they wouldn't be able to step out.
Maybe the only way to avoid human sacrifice, is to either pull a Caledor Dragontamer and just forever be able to do Waystone Guiding Stuff 24/7/365... or.
Or, to be Dwarf-like about it; to nail down to absurd extents and extremes how the Winds of Magic act and what they are allowed to do.
So, you either have to use human sacrifice, extremely fine Dwarfish mathemagical computer programming, spirit-binding to get a spirit to do all this persistently and consistently, calling in a God to handle it or to put a Divine Servant there to do it, or you do a Caledor and go "Fine then, I'll do it myself." Or some other rare things, who knows. Maybe Dragons can do it, the way Elves can. Or maybe special Old One-made materials or runes can do it. Or who knows.
- Location
- US
It looks like Mathilde hasn't made the connection yet, but she has actually been told pretty explicitly about the space travel and terraforming by Deathfang.
Edit: Did we ever talk about this story with Cython? Because I'm sure he'd be interested in the stuff about gods.
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Senior Apprentice Mathilde Weber
- Location
- Earth
Article: Noav drjig ol isuieiiurpl xipdorv hgw prxmkej. Qtez qt az xwe lsjrzl aihvpre weoz.
Your name is Mathilde Weber, aspiring Wizard of the Grey Order. No, that's not quite right. You are Mathilde Weber, Senior Apprentice of the Grey Order! You even have your own room and everything, all to yourself now. Well, you and Morr, of course. Sneaking him out of your old dorm from under the bed had been a bit of a hassle, but you're quite pleased that you'd been able to manage the extraction without suspicion. And if anybody had raised an eyebrow or two at your perfectly legitimate cover story, well, it was only an eyebrow or two, so it's not like you were caught.
"You know, I can see the smug look on your face, Apprentice. What is it that you've done this time?"
"Senior Apprentice," you correct.
"My Apprentice." Regimand chides. "And you still haven't answered the question."
"I'm just happy to be spending time with my Master in my new room." you say convincingly.
Your Master gives you an unimpressed look.
You respond with a wider grin.
"And I'm very excited to start learning actual Shadow Magic from my learned and wise old Master."
"Old, you say?" he glares in mock outrage. Then, you feel a thrum of Ulgu, and your Master disappears in the blink of an eye.
"Oh no," the man sitting where your Master was moans. "I am far too weak and feeble to be in a role as demanding as teaching." As he speaks, you see his frame sagging beneath his robes and his beard whitening. "Woe is me, and my poor, poor apprentice, who is to be left without a Master! Who will teach her the ways of the Shadowmancer now?"
Your Master sobs into your pillow, and you resist the urge to roll your eyes. Fortunately, you've experienced enough of his antics to know how to deal with this bit.
"Don't worry, old man! I'll go find Magister Regimand! I'm sure he'll teach me!" You pretend to look around before pointing a finger.
Your Master dispels his illusions and reveals his own properly smug visage.
"Right then! Let's get down to business. First, we're going to need a bigger space for the shadowhorse, so let's go down to the inn as a quick demonstration..."
You're halfway to the door when the rest of his sentence reaches you.
"After you brush up on your ciphers."
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You know now that I think about it, why didn't Mathilde catch that? Or perhaps she just didnt comment on it? Even if she doesnt know that outer space exists as we know it does, she was told pretty explicitly that the beings in silver ships came from beyond this world and made it habitable right? It should at least be ringing bells that the theory about the passages being about pre-empire people from Ulthuan has some holes in it
- Location
- Space
In fairness to Mathilde, lots of religions have creation stories. Even if they've got the common element of silver ships, she doesn't have a particular reason to think that the draconic story is just straightforwardly correct rather than being partially based in reality and partially based in the teller's embellishments like the rest of them.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
I can see a plausible reason for that failure: To us, it's been a few months, and a topic of massive discussion. To Mathilde, it's was likewise certainly a great and wonderous shock, at first.
Three years have passed since the expedition.
It's quite possible, even likely, that her memory of the tale has drifted. Bits of it will have stuck clearly in her mind, but it wouldn't surprise me if much of it in her mind is just kind of... off a bit, from the tale she actually heard, and will continue to be until she consults her notes again.
I won't say it's the only possibility, but from all my own experiences with memory drift due to theory crafting and quest participation on this very forum, it certainly strikes me as a possibility.
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Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm pretty sure these tablets are supposed to be representing a variety of religious practices, not exclusively Waystone-related ones. Even if what's being depicted on that tablet is in fact straight-up human sacrifice, there's no need to assume it's something we'd need for our purposes.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I regret to say that if it's not a simple ROT13 cipher I'm pretty clueless when it comes to these things...
...But for anyone who's going to take the effort to figure this out, there's no word in the English language with triple letters. At least, not without hyphens. So this isn't a 'simple' substitution cipher.
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Why would Mathilde think that the two tales would be incompatible?
- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It's also important to remember that we know exactly what we are looking for with the Old ones being space-travellers.
It's always extremly easy to notice solutions when you allready know them. It's like a crack in a wall, if you don't notice the crack, you'll glance over it a lot, but if you do know about it, that's almost impossible
It's always extremly easy to notice solutions when you allready know them. It's like a crack in a wall, if you don't notice the crack, you'll glance over it a lot, but if you do know about it, that's almost impossible
Regardless of embellishments, it clearly has elements of truth that are immediately relevant considering the interaction earlier. Plus most creation stories aren't told by an individual who is what, a few generations removed from it actually occurring? Even if you don't rank it as the complete and unaltered truth, its certainly something to make note of, no?
That would make sense to me, forgetting the exact wordings and such could probably occur over that length of time, still I would assume that something would transfer over.
Going back to the original creation tale, spoilered for readability,
In here deathfang refers to the dragons and old ones visiting the world, which was then an iceball, through the "void". That what we now know to be the old ones traveled through the void in the "silver ships". Its stated that the void is outside of the planet, and the dragons could visit and travel to other worlds by going through it, as well as that they could go through it to visit the moon.
In this last (half?) update, what Tochter says is that
Im struggling a bit here with modern assumptions of space travel and whatnot, but I think it would be reasonable to connect "come from beyond" "silver ships" and "nurture Her land" with the story of them arriving from beyond this world through the void in silver ships to make the world habitable and not an iceball. Maybe not entirely and certainly not definitively, but it suggests something that's a different story than traveling from Ulthuan in the ships.
Its not impossible to consider that they would use the same ships later to cross from Ulthuan later on, but I think that it does raise some red flags, and knowing information which could also fit the translations makes the proposed explanation regarding Ulthuan rather messy. In the end there are just extremely few data points about the old ones and their silver ships to work with, and when what is essentially our only major amount of information about them provides information which seems to correlate with Teclis' translations, I guess it just feels a bit odd to hear a theory which doesn't take any of that information into account, not that Tochter would have any way of knowing
You now when speaking of the mingling of divine and arcane energies to make Waystones I am reminded of the fact that the Lizardmen, you know the ones with better than elven lore on magic do have gods of their own, and they do practice human sacrifice in the name of those gods... on pyramids that are part of the Geomantic network.
I think human sacrifice may be the answer here guys, or at the very least sentient being sacrifice since the Lizardmen can use Skaven. That might be an easier sell. In any case if you do need human sacrifice for the dedication it can't be a lot of it since the tributary still works even though it has been millennia since the last one could have been made
I think human sacrifice may be the answer here guys, or at the very least sentient being sacrifice since the Lizardmen can use Skaven. That might be an easier sell. In any case if you do need human sacrifice for the dedication it can't be a lot of it since the tributary still works even though it has been millennia since the last one could have been made