Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Locals absolutely has advantages over the we - the ones on the tin are pretty straightforward. But ultimately what it's saying is that Locals *should* have that benefit, not that other choices lock you out of community involvement. This is not the only choice that impacts where the library falls on the scale of "A part of the Karak" to "something that just happens to be in it".

Of course, on the other hand you could double up with those other choices and investments AND locals, just like we can double up between Organization focus in the library's construction and taking the most organization-focused staffing option (The We). This choice still matters, and there is no best of all worlds option.

As for me personally - I see long term effectiveness as a higher priority than local community involvement or a quick start-up time. I think local community involvement sounds great, and I want to pursue it, I just think it's a side goal next to "Be the library of Alexandria that never burns down and whose knowledge is super accessible". In this case, I'm opting for what I think best serves the latter.
 
I challenged myself to consider under what circumstances I might abandon spooderfrend and support the Locals.

We know that Gazul's realm has a physical location, albeit deep underground, and K8P is intimately conencted to the AG's + has some suspiciously deep unexplored caverns.

If it's down there and we could eventually recruit from it, that would definitely tip the scales. :V

On the other hand, We would probably be the best candidate for Ranald-approved book mining, since locals might be all blasphemy this and sacrilege that.
 
While I've argued before that we can pick the We and still have the library well integrated into the Karak and/or have the Library have a significant impact on literacy levels among the locals, I do think that to do so would take at least some amount of (library) AP investment.

At the very least, I am deeply skeptical that the We are going to be better at the thing that is literally described as the Locals primary positive. That is generally not how these votes tend to work.
Yeah -- generally the way these votes have seemed to historically work is that if you vote for Thing X, you get its benefits, Thing Y and Z's benefits might be forever lost to you (depending on what they are) but if they are still available will require expenditure of time and effort that you don't need for Thing X's benefits.

For instance: we chose to base the Waystone Project in Laurelorn. One obvious benefit was that we got the Grey Lords recruited for us, at zero cost. Recruiting other collaborators who would have been included in other options has been possible, but has required rolling up our sleeves and working at it, as well as occasionally getting absurdly lucky (we did not deserve to crush Drycha as hard as we did, she rolled super badly on her scouting and walked straight into a disastrous fight she did not need to take, but Ranald was with us and now we have an Ice Witch and a Hag Witch who cheerfully tells us Ice Witch secrets).

So my expectation is that if we want to invest in other options' benefits, some of them will still be on the table, but we'll have to spend AP and get lucky, and so it's a question of what our priorities are.
Unfortunately I seem to be having one of those insomnia moments where my brain is too wired to settle down, and I've apparently chosen to distract myself from my inability to sleep by arguing with people on the internet. This is clearly Not Helping.

The good news is that one of my co-workers swapped shifts with me, so I don't have to go to work tomorrow.

Anyway, if I post again in the next six hours or so, feel free to be disappointed in me. Night.
I've been there. Generally I try watching something interesting-but-relaxing, like SummoningSalt videos on the history of speedrunning, and it engages my brain enough that I don't get bored and buys time for the keyed-up-about-arguing-on-the-Internet to wear off so I can actually fall asleep.

Not disappointed, just concerned and extremely sympathetic. Good luck.
 
I've been there. Generally I try watching something interesting-but-relaxing, like SummoningSalt videos on the history of speedrunning, and it engages my brain enough that I don't get bored and buys time for the keyed-up-about-arguing-on-the-Internet to wear off so I can actually fall asleep.
Huh, you too?

I like the SM64 16-star and contra videos for that, myself. There's a lot of SMB ones, but they tend to have in-game audio and man is that game shrill.
 
According to the Warhammer Wiki, there's also the 4e spell "Speed of Thought" (which only works on oneself, so would need that person to have windsight) and a spell from the WHFB Storm of Magic expansion called Time Amok "altering the flow of time to suit his allies' needs". However,
•The threadmarked spellbook doesn't list those spells.
•4e and WHFB are Tier 5 canonicity at best - which is to say, probably not
•Time manipulation might fall under time travel, which is apparently a hard no:
Time Amok is likely canon to DL, but it's not listed because it's Calamity Magic that is only available during Storms of Magic. We haven't been in a single Storm of Magic so far. It's not that common. We might be able to replicate a Storm temporarily with AV, but I don't think that's a good idea for research. Speed of Light and Timewarp are already pushing the realm of possibility for research, performing one of the most devastating spells in the College's arsenal just to get a glimpse of the Winds at the moment of formation in research is overkill and liable to get us killed.
 
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[X] Cython
[X] Orphans
[X] The We

Actually, thinking about it, I'm kinda sad orphans aren't a major contender. Giving a bunch of orphans an opportunity to be educated and have decent jobs in a very safe place would be cool. The loyalty is just a side benefit.

Also it give Mathilde a chance to interact with more kids, and we all know how that usually turns out. :V
[X] The We
[X] Cult of Verena
[X] Orphans

I'm not sure about the Orphans, but it seems in-character enough and I don't see any major problems with it right away, so I'll help give it a boost to try and catch up while I think further on the matter.

...Though, considering Eike and Mandred, we may run the risk of all the adopted orphans inexplicably turning out as Wizards... :V
...Do the Karaks have legal precedent for wizards? Because if any political body might not have bothered to regulate magic, surely it would be the one which doesn't have any citizens capable of it (excepr Runesmiths, sort of). What happens when the Dawi suddenly and for the first time have to legislate wizards and the education thereof? Surely not send them off to learn Runes.

Then again, it's only a matter of time before wizards pop up in the next generation of Undumgi and East Valley halflings, so it's not as if this would be a new problem. Just an acceleration of one. If it does happen in Mathilde's lifetime I expect it'll be fascinating to see wizard culture in Karak Eight Peaks develop more or less from scratch.
 
...Do the Karaks have legal precedent for wizards? Because if any political body might not have bothered to regulate magic, surely it would be the one which doesn't have any citizens capable of it (excepr Runesmiths, sort of). What happens when the Dawi suddenly and for the first time have to legislate wizards and the education thereof? Surely not send them off to learn Runes.

Then again, it's only a matter of time before wizards pop up in the next generation of Undumgi and East Valley halflings, so it's not as if this would be a new problem. Just an acceleration of one. If it does happen in Mathilde's lifetime I expect it'll be fascinating to see wizard culture in Karak Eight Peaks develop more or less from scratch.

The Mathilde branch of the Colleges will handle it, of course!
 
So my expectation is that if we want to invest in other options' benefits, some of them will still be on the table, but we'll have to spend AP and get lucky, and so it's a question of what our priorities are.
Something I feel that's been bothering me is that some properties of each choice are being treated with equal weight, but reasonably speaking many advantageous properties of the We can't really be acquired later, even if we were willing to do battle-altar levels of research to try and replicate them. We just go 'yeah, they're amazing in these ways', but since it took the same amount of text as the other options we aren't really thinking about what that sort of thing means.

The We can move in three dimensions. That's not the same as a ladder system. Or, if it is, it's roughly equivalent to having ladders covering every solid non-book surface in the library, magically spelled to only be accessible to authorized personnel. Ladders in the closets. Ladders on the ceiling. If more space is needed, they can put webs between those solid surfaces and invent more surface area ex nihilo.

If you had to pick something up in the middle of a mess without cleaning up the edges you could either get a long crane and a halfling, or else a single we could go and grab that thing by hanging down from the ceiling with mindless non-effort.

Replace 'a mess' with 'a crowd 'and 'a thing you want picked up' with 'a patron that you want to pass something to without disturbing everyone else' for a more mundane use case. (But not literally, that sentence wouldn't make sense.)


The We are telepathic. Or, echolocative-pathic. Close enough, anyway. That's not the same as having an intercom. Or, if it is, it's roughly equivalent to every single librarian in the building livestreaming everything they're doing to every other librarian in real time, and those other librarians having the sense of mind to pay attention to what every other librarian is doing at the same time.

"Hey, does anyone know where the treatise on giant spider superiority is located?" "It's not in the fiction section." "Oh, never mind, I found a researcher refiling it in entomology." Total time to locate that book, three lines of dialogue.

Except, nobody else can hear them do any of that, because it's in their head. No one can eavesdrop, or overhear, or distract them. In addition to fulfilling the obvious librarian requirement that people should be silent in a library, it's the highest speed that a request can be made and fulfilled by a patron. It's futuristic even by the standards of our already futuristic 2022 technology, much less anything anybody in Warhammer has ever had the pleasure of experiencing before.


The We have the numbers. There's always replacements for any individual spider body. That's not the same thing as having a good recruiting system. Or, if it is, it's roughly equivalent to being able to hire a new librarian by walking outside your door and doing the little hypnosis pocket watch trick to make them instantly trained and willing to work for room and board.

They don't get sick all at once. They don't have hiring problems. They don't have loyalty problems. We can reasonably say they're immune to most mundane forms of corruption. They can't steal because the library will already be theirs. They can't be bribed because the library is already everything they want. They can't be seduced, or caught playing office politics, or blackmailed. Their demeanor is impeccable.

Even supernatural corruption would have a hard time with them. Mutations only effect single bodies, and there's no moral cost to disposing of them. Most mind control would hit a single spider and stop. Could spells be created to get around that? Maybe. But if they have to write a new chapter in the book to get around your defenses that's still better than them being able to stick to the old familiar pages.


The We can protect themselves, and the library. That's not the same as the librarians being trained for combat. Or, if it is, it's roughly equivalent to picking up all the orphans, convincing them that protecting the library is worth more than their very lives, and then raising them all to be fearless, heavily armored, poison wielding ninjas who can cling to the walls and are okay with human wave tactics if that's what it takes to eliminate threats.

Every single one of them, with no training turnarounds. No hiring turnarounds. No having to transport orphan caravans to your secret library monastery where everyone is trained in book-fu. No infiltrators, no defectors. Spies can't even disguise themselves as We because the We all have wireless radio and could immediately identify something that was pretending to be one of them but wasn't saying anything, and the spy probably wouldn't even realize that they had been made because they'd be challenged on frequencies they can't even hear.


The We are just, you know, super cool. Our name is Weber. They are spiders. We are soul mates. This was intended. No matter how many AP you give the locals of Karak Eight Peaks, they can never become a hivemind of giant orc-eating spiders that's also a fundamentally decent person with good morals and the capacity for empathy.

But, if you give the We enough AP, they can become an accepted member of the community of Karak Eight Peaks. And that won't happen if we don't take a chance, one opportunity or another, to bring them into the public eye. To show people that they're more than just a random encounter you hope you don't roll in the Underdark, inexplicably on the occupying faction's side because the programming is kind of basic and they're never going to be in the same room as the humanoid units anyways.

To show that they're not just... a bug.

That pun was awful. I'll close this post out.
 
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Time Amok is likely canon to DL, but it's not listed because it's Calamity Magic that is only available during Storms of Magic. We haven't been in a single Storm of Magic so far. It's not that common. We might be able to replicate a Storm temporarily with AV, but I don't think that's a good idea for research. Speed of Light and Timewarp are already pushing the realm of possibility for research, performing one of the most devastating spells in the College's arsenal just to get a glimpse of the Winds at the moment of formation in research is overkill and liable to get us killed.
I was thinking of using Aethyric Vitae instead of the Storm, but I am well aware it's a catastrophically bad idea if possible. XD
 
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...Do the Karaks have legal precedent for wizards? Because if any political body might not have bothered to regulate magic, surely it would be the one which doesn't have any citizens capable of it (excepr Runesmiths, sort of). What happens when the Dawi suddenly and for the first time have to legislate wizards and the education thereof? Surely not send them off to learn Runes.

Then again, it's only a matter of time before wizards pop up in the next generation of Undumgi and East Valley halflings, so it's not as if this would be a new problem. Just an acceleration of one. If it does happen in Mathilde's lifetime I expect it'll be fascinating to see wizard culture in Karak Eight Peaks develop more or less from scratch.
I think Boney's said that most parents will at least come to Mathilde and ask for advice on what to do. And given her and the other Wizards' reputations in the Karak, will most likely be amenable to sending the kids to the Colleges.
 

A superb point about replicable advantages, excellently written.

Your first example of 3d movement makes me wonder what the library would actually look like. How much is the stereotypical bookshelf defined by the shape of books, and how much by the need for humans to be using those bookshelves? Would "the stacks" look like a forest, a cave, a web?
I am just so excited at the possibility of bringing a non-horrible and notably fantastical part of the WH world into the light here.
 
The Mathilde branch of the Colleges will handle it, of course!
I think Boney's said that most parents will at least come to Mathilde and ask for advice on what to do. And given her and the other Wizards' reputations in the Karak, will most likely be amenable to sending the kids to the Colleges.
That does sound like the likely outcome, but honestly I'm mainly wondering how the Imperial Articles of Magic apply to students who aren't from the Empire. Having to renounce loyalty to your home in favor of a country half a continent away seems like a pretty huge downside for Karak-raised mages.

This is very persuasive, but I do wonder whether the We will be able to truly value books when they're so foreign to their culture.
 
Something I feel that's been bothering me is that some properties of each choice are being treated with equal weight, but reasonably speaking many advantageous properties of the We can't really be acquired later, even if we were willing to do battle-altar levels of research to try and replicate them. We just go 'yeah, they're amazing in these ways', but since it took the same amount of text as the other options we aren't really thinking about what that sort of thing means.

The We can move in three dimensions. That's not the same as a ladder system. Or, if it is, it's roughly equivalent to having ladders covering every solid non-book surface in the library, magically spelled to only be accessible to authorized personnel. Ladders in the closets. Ladders on the ceiling. If more space is needed, they can put webs between those solid surfaces and invent more surface area ex nihilo.

If you had to pick something up in the middle of a mess without cleaning up the edges you could either get a long crane and a halfling, or else a single we could go and grab that thing by hanging down from the ceiling with mindless non-effort.

Replace 'a mess' with 'a crowd 'and 'a thing you want picked up' with 'a patron that you want to pass something to without disturbing everyone else' for a more mundane use case. (But not literally, that sentence wouldn't make sense.)


The We are telepathic. Or, echolocative-pathic. Close enough, anyway. That's not the same as having an intercom. Or, if it is, it's roughly equivalent to every single librarian in the building livestreaming everything they're doing to every other librarian in real time, and those other librarians having the sense of mind to pay attention to what every other librarian is doing at the same time.

"Hey, does anyone know where the treatise on giant spider superiority is located?" "It's not in the fiction section." "Oh, never mind, I found a researcher refiling it in entomology." Total time to locate that book, three lines of dialogue.

Except, nobody else can hear them do any of that, because it's in their head. No one can eavesdrop, or overhear, or distract them. In addition to fulfilling the obvious librarian requirement that people should be silent in a library, it's the highest speed that a request can be made and fulfilled by a patron. It's futuristic even by the standards of our already futuristic 2022 technology, much less anything anybody in Warhammer has ever had the pleasure of experiencing before.


The We have the numbers. There's always replacements for any individual spider body. That's not the same thing as having a good recruiting system. Or, if it is, it's roughly equivalent to being able to hire a new librarian by walking outside your door and doing the little hypnosis pocket watch trick to make them instantly trained and willing to work for room and board.

They don't get sick all at once. They don't have hiring problems. They don't have loyalty problems. We can reasonably say they're immune to most mundane forms of corruption. They can't steal because the library will already be theirs. They can't be bribed because the library is already everything they want. They can't be seduced, or caught playing office politics, or blackmailed. Their demeanor is impeccable.

Even supernatural corruption would have a hard time with them. Mutations only effect single bodies, and there's no moral cost to disposing of them. Most mind control would hit a single spider and stop. Could spells be created to get around that? Maybe. But if they have to write a new chapter in the book to get around your defenses that's still better than them being able to stick to the old familiar pages.


The We can protect themselves, and the library. That's not the same as the librarians being trained for combat. Or, if it is, it's roughly equivalent to picking up all the orphans, convincing them that protecting the library is worth more than their very lives, and then raising them all to be fearless, heavily armored, poison wielding ninjas who can cling to the walls and are okay with human wave tactics if that's what it takes to eliminate threats.

Every single one of them, with no training turnarounds. No hiring turnarounds. No having to transport orphan caravans to your secret library monastery where everyone is trained in book-fu. No infiltrators, no defectors. Spies can't even disguise themselves as We because the We all have wireless radio and could immediately identify something that was pretending to be one of them but wasn't saying anything, and the spy probably wouldn't even realize that they had been made because they'd be challenged on frequencies they can't even hear.


The We are just, you know, super cool. Our name is Weber. They are spiders. We are soul mates. This was intended. No matter how many AP you give the locals of Karak Eight Peaks, they can never become a hivemind of giant orc-eating spiders that's also a fundamentally decent person with good morals and the capacity for empathy.

But, if you give the We enough AP, they can become an accepted member of the community of Karak Eight Peaks. And that won't happen if we don't take a chance, one opportunity or another, to bring them into the public eye. To show people that they're more than just a random encounter you hope you don't roll in the Underdark, inexplicably on the occupying faction's side because the programming is kind of basic and they're never going to be in the same room as the humanoid units anyways.

To show that they're not just... a bug.

That pun was awful. I'll close this post out.
In theory, it might be possible to create somekind of BOK level construct that operates on industrial scale.
Like an automated warehouse, except it's a library.
But we are talking of better than the Golden Age level of miracles here.
Even modern computing is unable to deal with the fact that not everyone is an expert on automated systems so The We is still better because they are more capable of interfacing with potential visitors.
And doing this would utterly destroy the main draw of the Local because now you are not employing anyone to integrate into the wider Karak.

The We is, in many ways, the perfect librarian, or at least will become so, or as near as it is possible to do so.
And if people would prefer having decent librarians and more community involvement instead, that's fine.
But we can get more community involvement later with time and effort, even if it might never be quite as good as it would have been if we went locals and doubled down on that, but near perfect immortal librarian is not on the cards though.
 
This is very persuasive, but I do wonder whether the We will be able to truly value books when they're so foreign to their culture.
Imagine suffering from Alzheimer's disease. Every day, week, month, year, you lose your memory. Bit by bit, chunk by chunk, you forget a little more of your life. Sure, you still remember some. Enough to know who you are, some of the things that are important to you, skills, and so on. But Also enough to know that you're forgetting stuff. That for all that you may be very old, you only really remember a fraction of what you've done and the things that you've seen, and a fair bit of just plain old knowledge.

Now imagine that someone offers you a way to not forget. Oh it may take some time and focus to remember, like something buried in your subconscious, but everything from here on out will still be available to you, so long as you go looking. People, skills, places and events. You can remember.

That's what books are to them.
 
[X] Orphans
[X] Locals

The vote for orphans is less for what they can do for a library and more for what the library can do for them. Instituting them as the core librarians will give the orphans of K8P a solid job opportunity when they would otherwise be unlikely to gain any.
 
[X] Orphans
[X] Locals

The vote for orphans is less for what they can do for a library and more for what the library can do for them. Instituting them as the core librarians will give the orphans of K8P a solid job opportunity when they would otherwise be unlikely to gain any.
Huh, that's a thought. What can the library do for each option? Putting aside what we get out of it, or what the Karak does, what do the new hires get that they would be unable to get otherwise?
 
I like this post.

I think I'm sufficiently convinced that there's nothing that could beat the We in the votes for me, even if many of the other options are neat in their own right, so...

[X] The We

Dropping my vote for Cult of Verena and Orphans, unless some real compelling posts pop up for them. But if they do I'll have to read them tomorrow, because for now I'm gonna sleep.
 
This is very persuasive, but I do wonder whether the We will be able to truly value books when they're so foreign to their culture.
That is a good question. From what I can remember, I think they consider books philosophically and practically equivalent to spider brains, except they don't have to feed them or focus on the information they're trying to retain. If made Librarian, the impression I got was that the LibrarWe are anticipated to offload a significant portion of their historical memory to the medium of books once they are capable of writing, because they understand perfectly that books are exactly the thing you want for stuff that doesn't come up much but that's important to remember precisely.

When you think about it, putting them in charge of the books will probably significantly increase their cognitive capacity, because they won't be tying much of it up constantly echoing historical details to themselves to retain their memories.

In short, we should vote for The We because helping them become the LibrarWe will be the direct cause of their transition into being a big brainy spider nerd. That's even better than being a normal spider hive mind.
 
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