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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Another day, another cycle of people rallying the vote because 'staff being spider shaped people would make the library unwelcoming' was raised as an objection while not addressing the GM-approved workaround with illusions, or any possibility of offering special accomodations to those with arachnophobia, or any permutations there-of. Even though by all accounts they would be astoundingly competent in the role. Even though there's a compelling argument to be made that they'd find it deeply meaningful and fulfilling. Even though the underlying objection could apply to any participation in public society at all, and if their actual suitability for the role isn't sufficient to overcome that objection here, where the heck would it be? The only jobs they've been offered so far is soldiering and being livestock, have we just decided they're too inherently distressing for their lane to be anything else?

This is a work of fiction. No real life people are being discriminated against because of the outcome of this vote - but insofar as voter reasoning can be validly applied in-character, boney does so, and I do not want Mathilde to accept a bigoted premise like that. The roads it goes down are horrifying.

And make no mistake, it is one. Whether or not something is discrimination or bigoted is not decided by checking of they're one of the "approved" groups, this is not case-by-case. The objection is inherently discriminatory, it is categorically wrong. Pointing that out is not an accusation of bigotry against LGBTQ people, it is pointing out that in-group/out-group thinking is not a substitute for the core principle. Mathilde would be equally wrong were she marginalizing spiders as she would be were she marginalizing trans people because she is still marginalizing people for the circumstances of their birth.

The We are a person, therefore they are due all the dignity and self-determination personhood entails. It categorically follows that disadvantaging or eliminating them from consideration because of what they look like is wrong. And though the illusions may seem like a way to cut to have our cake and eat it too, though they might decide they have no issue with that, it also categorically follows that demanding they hide their existence is wrong, it categorically follows that it is their choice to make, that we cannot and should not decide what they value for them, and that it's still wrong to count that against them. I do not want to play a character who shies away from that truth.
 
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Something that I'm not sure is staying in focus in all this discussion is that we are not talking about which possibilities we will accept, as in these are all people who are applying to work in our library and already have expressed a desire to be part of it. It's who we want to recruit, as who do we want to go to and talk into doing this.

I'm highlighting this because I'm highly dubious that any of our options here will feel slighted, discriminated against, or like their hopes and dreams are being smothered (or whatever) if we don't specifically seek them out to ask them to please work in our library. I mean, I guess the orphans might feel the latter, but that's just due to that apparently being the default resting state of orphans in this setting.

...I think I just accidentally talked myself into updating my vote to:

[X] Cython
[X] Orphans

Anyway. There are many other tasks and roles around K8P, and at least one other role in the library itself (namely scribes), that we could involve a number of these options in, particularly for the more local options if people are concerned with enhancing integration/community there. However, IMO this is probably our one and only shot to secure the prestige, security, and personal book collection attained from having a freaking Emperor Dragon as the head librarian.

Actually, something that just occurred to me on the topic of security. Back when Waaagh Birdmuncha was attacking, we talked to Cython about whether they'd help us and they just gave us a draconic shrug and went "nah, not feeling it" because if the Waaagh didn't interfere with their lair/hoard then it wasn't their problem. People have mostly been talking about having Cython regard the Library as a kind of shared hoard with Mathilde as if it were a negative, but we should consider the security benefits to K8P as a whole (as opposed to just for the Library itself) if Cython gains a vested interest in the security of at least one of the Karaks.

It's very easy for Cython to believe that [x enemies] will not trek all the way up to the top of their mountain for no reason other than to win the fabulous prize of getting murdered in the face by peak draconic performance. But if its "hoard" also occupies space in the middle of a populated Karak, any attack on at least that particular mountain is a potential threat to its hoard. And dragons in general and Cython in specific have very well-established response patterns to that kind of incursion.
 
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Fayhem said:
I'm highlighting this because I'm highly dubious that any of our options here will feel slighted, discriminated against, or like their hopes and dreams are being smothered (or whatever) if we don't specifically seek them out to ask them to please work in our library.
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The same could have been said of leaving The We in the dark about the value of their silk. Was our conclusion that their ignorance wouldn't make it right incorrect? Does eliminating or disadvantaging someone from consideration for a job offer because of what they look like make it right if they only just don't find out? Does it being a job offer and not a response to a job application make it right?

Of course not.

Yet that categorically immoral reasoning remains the most high profile and enduring objection to approaching them. I do not want to play a character who accepts and acts on that falsehood.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by picklepikkl on May 12, 2022 at 7:19 PM, finished with 2063 posts and 349 votes.
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Vote is quite tight, as The We and Locals continue to pull ahead of Cython, who is miles away from everything else. (EDIT: Though obviously things can change if people approval vote stuff up from the ranks, it's happened before and it can happen again)

For anyone who is not currently voting for one of the two leading options and is considering whether they want to weigh in and in which direction, here is @DragonParadox's quite good post about the pros of the We, and here is my recent post about the pros of Locals. If anyone has other suggestions for arguments in favor of one of them (I am not interested in "arguments against the dispreferred option"), link or make them and I will include them in this post.

EDIT: @LadyLynn's roundup of pros for both leading options.
EDIT: @myrix's argument for Cython, which is currently in third but definitely within striking distance of the leaders.
EDIT: @Fayhem's post for Cython and Orphans.
 
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[X] Cython
[X] Orphans
[X] The We

Actually, thinking about it, I'm kinda sad orphans aren't a major contender. Giving a bunch of orphans an opportunity to be educated and have decent jobs in a very safe place would be cool. The loyalty is just a side benefit.

Also it give Mathilde a chance to interact with more kids, and we all know how that usually turns out. :V
 
Prime 2.0 said:
The same could have been said of leaving The We in the dark about the value of their silk.
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...If you think working in a library has the same inherent value and universal desirability in society as being able to functionally excrete gold, I have got some absolutely devastating news for you about the typical compensation package for librarians.
 
Fayhem said:
...If you think working in a library has the same inherent value and universal desirability in society as being able to functionally excrete gold, I have got some absolutely devastating news for you about the typical compensation package for librarians.
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The only person who gets to decide what The We values more is The We. Monetary value is not a substitute for someone's self-determination.

I am not particularly thrilled to be having to explain that discrimination is still wrong even if someone thinks the difference won't matter to the person being discriminated against.
 
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Here's an argument for the Locals. One of the greatest drivers of economic opportunity is literacy. Look at Mathilde—sure, she has the gift of magic, which gave her a privileged education, but it's that very same education is the reason why she's in her current position and not a Stirlandian peasant. By binding the library to the community of Karak Eight Peaks via hiring locals, we have an opportunity to bring that same gift of literacy and education to people who, just a few short years ago, were penniless mercenaries and adventurers, but are now settling down with families in the safest city in the world.

Ranald the Protector is the god of social change, of rising up those who are considered "lesser". What greater way to honour him than to give those who sit on the bottom most rung of society the ability to create their own opportunities via literacy and education, to create a new class of people based around learning. Karak Eight Peaks already has a gunnery school—why not plant the seeds for a medical school, or a tradecraft school, or an art school, or a history school. Lets bring the sciences and the humanities and the arts to the karak by embracing this opportunity to make the library a integral part of the community, rather than a distant, ivory tower institution.

[X] Locals
 
Prime 2.0 said:
The only person who gets to decide what The We values more is The We. Monetary value is not a substitute for someone's self-determination.
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As I realized might be the case after I posted it, my glibness obscured the actual point I was making. What you are saying is a false equivalency because the choice we were making with the We's silk was predicated on the premise that we definitely wanted to get silk from the We either way. So the choice was about whether to let them know how much something we wanted from them either way was actually worth.

This has... literally no points of overlap with the current situation. The discussion is not whether we will get the We to work as librarians for a pittance versus getting them to work as librarians for a fair wage. That is what would be equivalent. What we are discussing is who we will specifically recruit to be librarians for us. "We must make spiders the librarians whether they've ever asked for or expressed any form of interest in that or not" is not a moral imperative of any kind. The new-We probably could presumably be happy as librarians, or they wouldn't be an option. They could also be happy in rather a number of other roles, and if we don't specifically try to steer them away from those roles then they'll naturally slot into one of them instead. That is not an injustice to spider-kind, nor does not selecting the spiders make anybody discriminatory or bigoted against anybody.

God, the sentences you wind up saying on the internet.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Here's an argument for the Locals. One of the greatest drivers of economic opportunity is literacy. Look at Mathilde—sure, she has the gift of magic, which gave her a privileged education, but it's that very same education is the reason why she's in her current position and not a Stirlandian peasant. By binding the library to the community of Karak Eight Peaks via hiring locals, we have an opportunity to bring that same gift of literacy and education to people who, just a few short years ago, were penniless mercenaries and adventurers, but are now settling down with families in the safest city in the world.

Ranald the Protector is the god of social change, of rising up those who are considered "lesser". What greater way to honour him than to give those who sit on the bottom most rung of society the ability to create their own opportunities via literacy and education, to create a new class of people based around learning. Karak Eight Peaks already has a gunnery school—why not plant the seeds for a medical school, or a tradecraft school, or an art school, or a history school. Lets bring the sciences and the humanities and the arts to the karak by embracing this opportunity to make the library a integral part of the community, rather than a distant, ivory tower institution.
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However, establishing a scribe school would achieve the same thing, what with teaching people literacy and exposing them to a lot of books, and the fact that they'd still live next to our library.

And I do plan on voting for locals when we get to the scribes vote.
 
Also updating my vote for Orphans. Not 'cause I think it has any chance, just for flavor.

As far as arguments in favor of Bookwyrm, I think it's worth pointing out that Cython is, like, super chill and accommodating, for a being of their age and power. They have the pride of an Emperor Dragon, sure, but it's the productive/healthy pride of "I'm a dragon, why bother being insulted when I can be beyond such things?" rather than "Bow you shits, bow!".

I don't think it likely for them to just decide to skedaddle one day with the library, not without like a century of forewarning at least (they strike me as the sort of person who'd avoid pissing off neighbors unless needed just to avoid the hassle, if for no other reason). I also don't feel very insulted at the idea of "having to share ownership of the library hoard" with them. I don't think they'd suddenly consider all the books as belonging solely to them. It's explicitly a partnership, rather than all give little take.

Finally, getting them a job that involves interacting with other humans/dwarves/halflings/We and the like and consequently normalizing said interactions is a boon in itself. A neighbor you regularly talk to is a neighbor you tend to be friendlier with, after all.

(Also less stress for poor Belegar, having to share his kingdom with a dragon who might talk to him on occasion rather than be constantly out of sight but not out of mind)

[x] Orphans
[x] Cython
 
Fayhem said:
This has... literally no points of overlap with the current situation. The discussion is not whether we will get the We to work as librarians for a pittance versus getting them to work as librarians for a fair wage. That is what would be equivalent. What we are discussing is who we will specifically recruit to be librarians for us. "We must make spiders the librarians whether they've ever asked for or expressed any form of interest in that or not" is not a moral imperative of any kind. The new-We probably could presumably be happy as librarians, or they wouldn't be an option. They could also be happy in rather a number of other roles, and if we don't specifically try to steer them away from those roles then they'll naturally slot into one of them instead. That is not an injustice to spider-kind, nor does not selecting the spiders make anybody discriminatory or bigoted against anybody.
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The overlap is "ignorance of something wrong being done to them, even though that ignorance stops them from being sad about it does not make it not wrong".

Choosing someone else over The We on the merits would not be discriminatory or bigoted against The We. Disadvantaging or eliminating them from consideration because they are spiders absolutely would be.

"Because they are spiders and some potential library-goers would dislike or hate that" has been the most high profile and enduring objection to picking them. It has, again and again, been the argument that rallied support enough to bring it in contention for the lead from distant second or third. Mathilde's in-character reasoning follows from the thread reasoning. It is, in thread, and therefore most likely in-story, the reasoning that could edge out the decision.

I do not want Mathilde accept that reasoning. It would be deeply uncomfortable to play as someone who did.

This is the second time I've said most of this. Please keep in mind that when I say something on the topic or make a comparison, I am doing so in the context of this thesis.
 
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StormySky said:
However, establishing a scribe school would achieve the same thing, what with teaching people literacy and exposing them to a lot of books, and the fact that they'd still live next to our library.

And I do plan on voting for locals when we get to the scribes vote.
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Well, yes, this isn't the only opportunity, but I feel that librarianship will result in a faster and more well rounded approach than hiring scribes will (although I can't explain my reasoning for this very well because it's one in the morning here and I'm about to collapse, before anyone tries to @ me).
 
I've calmed down, I think. Took some time, played some touhou, ate some food and drank some water.
picklepikkl said:
Adhoc vote count started by picklepikkl on May 12, 2022 at 7:19 PM, finished with 2063 posts and 349 votes.
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Vote is quite tight, as The We and Locals continue to pull ahead of Cython, who is miles away from everything else.

For anyone who is not currently voting for one of the two leading options and is considering whether they want to weigh in and in which direction, here is @DragonParadox's quite good post about the pros of the We, and here is my recent post about the pros of Locals. If anyone has other suggestions for arguments in favor of one of them (I am not interested in "arguments against the dispreferred option"), link or make them and I will include them in this post.
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Some points I'd make in favor of the We and Locals:

The We:
Scribes:
If we choose to have the We double as scribes to easily copy books from the Library, that would be much simpler to manage if the We also live in the Library. If the We are also scribes, then that makes it much more plausible to have extra copies of books, and thus be more easily able to sell them at a low price. Perhaps we could even set up a book-lending system, depending on how the logistics pan out. This would help a lot with better integrating the Library into the Karak, as the Library would offer much more utility to people that normally would not be able to afford books - and the increased prevalence of books in the area would encourage a growth in literacy rates, in turn further encouraging use of the Library.

Fulfillment:
The point has been made before that the We may find this job to be very meaningful. We are, after all, essentially asking them to be our Echo-Keeper - arguably, an Echo-Keeper for the Old World as a whole. I feel like the We could really grasp the importance and value of this job, of preserving and passing on knowledge. The job is also an excellent fit for what we understand of the We's interests: they're very curious about a variety of topics, and they are eager to learn about other people and how they all fit together. As Librarians, they would get access to both the greatest supply of books in the Old World and get to know a great many people.

Less new characters:
If you want to limit the amount of new characters being introduced, picking the We means not as many new characters are being introduced for the sake of the Library.

Locals:
Institution integration:
This may be repeating the point of "integration into the Karak" somewhat, but one of the ways to further integrate the Library into the Karak, regardless of which option is chosen, is through the existence of other institutions that make use of the Library. For example, a school of some sort in walking distance. However, for the Locals option, this would happen much more naturally: people are much more inclined to look for synergies with the Library if they know someone who works there.

Understanding of the Library's contents:
With the locals involved in the Library's management, the understanding of the Library's contents are going to spread more widely throughout the Karak. People will be more aware of new acquisitions or what sort of things the Karak already has a great deal of books available on. With greater understanding of the Library comes greater use of the Library.

More new characters:
If you want to have more new characters introduced, this would do it. Perhaps one might feel as if it would be hard to get properly invested in the Library if there are too few characters associated with it, for example - or it would simply be more interesting to read about to have a diverse set of librarians.
 
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If people don't like spiders in real life, not voting for the We makes sense. In the end, Mathilde is just an extension of us players.

In-universe, even without Doppelganger spells, arachnophobe Library visitors can be taken care of by Dwarven or Halfling greeters. We'll need some two-legged staff anyway, both to help the We learn and to run errands outside the Karak.

The big in-universe advantage for Locals is if you want the Library to double as a community center.

Me, I think the Karak has community centers developing nicely.

And a Library powered by an immortal hive mind with eidetic memory, well, that's a Library that would be amazing at getting people the books they really need.

Isn't that what every great Library is hoped to be?
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Here's an argument for the Locals. One of the greatest drivers of economic opportunity is literacy. Look at Mathilde—sure, she has the gift of magic, which gave her a privileged education, but it's that very same education is the reason why she's in her current position and not a Stirlandian peasant. By binding the library to the community of Karak Eight Peaks via hiring locals, we have an opportunity to bring that same gift of literacy and education to people who, just a few short years ago, were penniless mercenaries and adventurers, but are now settling down with families in the safest city in the world.

Ranald the Protector is the god of social change, of rising up those who are considered "lesser". What greater way to honour him than to give those who sit on the bottom most rung of society the ability to create their own opportunities via literacy and education, to create a new class of people based around learning. Karak Eight Peaks already has a gunnery school—why not plant the seeds for a medical school, or a tradecraft school, or an art school, or a history school. Lets bring the sciences and the humanities and the arts to the karak by embracing this opportunity to make the library a integral part of the community, rather than a distant, ivory tower institution.

[X] Locals
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A library doesn't increase literacy as much as increased book availability through accelerated copying does. The We can do the latter.

Furthermore, I don't understand the prevailing assumption that people working for a library will increase the literacy and change the culture of their much greater number of peers who are not working in the library. But if you do assume that, you also get the implied lack of need to work in the library for your literacy culture to change. So if working for the library or not didn't matter for their change in literacy/culture, why would voting for the Locals be advantageous for that anyway?
 
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I'm looking forward to doing more swording soon. Swords aren't super complicated. You just stab things with them, plain and simple.
 
Tomcost said:
@Boney , if it turns out we really need to bribe Cython in the future, and the library is staffed by someone else, could we still use it as a bargaining chip?
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No. The library isn't a bribe, it's an attempt to make Cython feel personally invested in the success of the library so that they might invest their own resources and efforts that they otherwise wouldn't. If you want that to work you have to do it now so you can set the library up to cater to their concerns. Trying to crowbar a dragon into an already fully established library isn't going to work, and neither will bombarding the dragon with an assortment of random books.

BeepSmile said:
I'm a bit confused on that - has no one asked the We if they would be able to spin cloth directly?
And if not, why not? To be the middleman and thereby profit or...?
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They can currently spin them into structures, which isn't that useful to non-spiders. It's possible that with practice and experimentation they might be able to achieve something more, but there was a vote as to how they should be influenced to develop and the decision was that they should be left to develop freely instead of being prodded towards a specific military or economic niche.

Alliterate said:
Over time, one future I could see is the potential We-librarians reading and storing as Echo every book that arrives within the library, expanding their hive numbers as required to maintain the Echo of all that knowledge.
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Every expansion of the echo has a direct caloric cost to maintain the extra minds that hold and repeat that information. The We value books because they can contain knowledge without requiring caloric upkeep and conscious effort to preserve. It's technically possible for the memory of the We to go all the way back to the first awakening of their race, but time, entropy, periods of starvation, and unexpected deaths from Warpstone exposure and attacks on their hive mean that the We's memories only start becoming complete and reliable after they arrived at Karak Eight Peaks. The more likely scenario is that the transfer goes the other way, that the We start recording the minutiae of their memories and storing them in the library while only preserving that which they believe to be most vital, useful, or meaningful within the echo.

TreP said:
Well, apparently an argument against this would be that we just assume this, and haven't heard neither We's opinion nor Boney.

Personally, I agree that We have very different world view.
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Without going into any comparisons to real-life groups, Mathilde would not be that likely to ask the question of the We in the first place, because every argument that the We should conceal their involvement in the library for the comfort of those with phobias could apply equally as much to the position that Mathilde should conceal her involvement in the library too. There are a lot of people that would be deeply uncomfortable coming to a Wizard's library, and some of them would have that stem from deeply and genuinely traumatic experiences at the hands of magic-users. But on the other hand, Mathilde has had her own traumatic experience stemming from people getting too used to the idea that they can use their fear to dictate what the world should look like.

In practice, the most likely solution would be that people can write to the library and request books on a required topic be set up in a reading room (which would be normal practice for the more valuable or restricted books that only librarians can access the storage of) and then they can come to the library and make their way to that reading room without having to interact with any of the spiders they might pass. That's still going to be some degree of uncomfortable for some people, but so is Mathilde going about her life in Karag Nar in full Wizard regalia.
 
Halil said:
Furthermore, I don't understand the prevailing assumption that people working for a library will increase the literacy and change the culture of their much greater number of peers who are not working in the library. But if you do assume that, you also get the implied lack of need to work in the library for your literacy culture to change. So if working for the library or not didn't matter for their change in literacy/culture, why would voting for the Locals be advantageous for that anyway?
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Because of social effects on family and friends: the update does explicitly say that it will make the Library more integrated into the wider Karak, and it's hard to see what that means other than "more people in the Karak use it more regularly than they otherwise would," which correspondingly implies a growth in literacy's social value.
Ericwinter said:
I'm looking forward to doing more swording soon. Swords aren't super complicated. You just stab things with them, plain and simple.
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stop tempting fate i swear to fucking god
 
Ninbefor said:
And a Library powered by an immortal hive mind with eidetic memory, well, that's a Library that would be amazing at getting people the books they really need.

Isn't that what every great Library is hoped to be?
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One question I have to raise on that front is that we already have an unreasonably well organized library—the focus we chose when construction started was Order. So would having the We's organizational skills stacked on top of that make it absurdly unreasonably well organized, or would we cap out since it's already the focus of the library?
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Ranald the Protector is the god of social change, of rising up those who are considered "lesser". What greater way to honour him than to give those who sit on the bottom most rung of society the ability to create their own opportunities via literacy and education, to create a new class of people based around learning.
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I feel like this is a better argument for Orphans, whom are more disadvantaged than everyone living at K8P because they're penniless orphans and most of them will likely end up becoming criminals or at best, menial workers because their job prospects are not great.

picklepikkl said:
stop tempting fate i swear to fucking god
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And thus did the great god Murphy fuck everything up.
 
Halil said:
A library doesn't increase literacy as much as increased book availability through accelerated copying does. The We can do the latter.

Furthermore, I don't understand the prevailing assumption that people working for a library will increase the literacy and change the culture of their much greater number of peers who are not working in the library. But if you do assume that, you also get the implied lack of need to work in the library for your literacy culture to change. So if working for the library or not didn't matter for their change in literacy/culture, why would voting for the Locals be advantageous for that anyway?
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Accelerated copying is meaningless if people can't afford to own books, which is the whole point of a library—to make books and education available to everyone.

As for the "assumption" that hiring locals will have an effect upon the local community—that's literally a stated benefit of that specific option, so if you have a problem with how unrealistic it is that people would want to use a public institution run by their friends, family and neighbours, take it up with Boney I guess?

Have some anecdotal evidence—last September I got a job in a bookshop. Ever since then, my parents have significantly increased the amount of books they read because they now have a second hand connection to a place that provides books (and okay, my staff discount helps a lot). My job encourages them to read more, and they've been devouring a wide variety of books across multiple genres when previous to my employment their reading habits were more sedate and predictable.
 
ReImagined said:
One question I have to raise on that front is that we already have an unreasonably well organized library—the focus we chose when construction started was Order. So would having the We's organizational skills stacked on top of that make it absurdly unreasonably well organized, or would we cap out since it's already the focus of the library?
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Probably it means the We can assign more of their memories to "what's in that book" instead of "where is that book."

In the early days, when there aren't many books, we probably do cap out.

But if the Library becomes huge as we eventually hope, the We may let us bridge the KAU difference between "a well-indexed library" and "basically the Interwebs."
 
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