Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Tobtorp]

And there is the "it's just the company standard not our fault you are such a frea- that you don't conform to it, please present yourself as a proper person by tomorrow".

There is a vast difference between a dress code and trying to force people to hide or deny their own existence, but equating the two is not exactly a new tactic by the people that want to do so.

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Your blowing this waaaaay out of proportion. For a hive mind spider who is more like one person in several bodies. Who has no real sense of self except the group do you think having one or two drone of hundreds wearing a illusion is closer to them wearing a uniform or having their personal life forcefully repressed?

"Hey some of the customers think you're ugly, please wear this paper bag on your head."

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Our customers expect a certain Standart. Wear a suit.

 

[LadyLynn]

Your blowing this waaaaay out of proportion. For a hive mind spider who is more like one person in several bodies. Who has no real sense of self except the group do you think having one or two drone of hundreds wearing a illusion is closer to them wearing a uniform or having their personal life forcefully repressed?

Our customers expect a certain Standart. Wear a suit.

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You are again assuming things. Maybe they won't care, but maybe they'll want the identity they present to people to match the identity of what they are, and perhaps an illusion of a human or dwarf or whatever would disrupt that.

Your opinion that the We shouldn't feel like their identity is being repressed, because you don't feel like it is, is utterly irrelevant. The person's whose opinion does matter there is the We, and we do not know how they would experience it.

 

[chocolote12]

So, I am going to ask.

What is supposed to be the in-character motivation for picking the spiders, in the eyes of other thread participants?

We have been going back and forth about the out of character motivations for that. Some persons find them too interesting not to hire, some like the joke about Weber's library being full of spider, some are bringing in real world moral considerations.

I am not seeing the in-character angle, however. As far as I can recall, the We have been distinctly distant, almost a matter of academic curiosity, and the adaptation process is expected to be arduous. The only thing that comes to mind is making the We a very strong statement about being 100% committed to the "for all races" mission statement of the library, which doesn't quite jell with my mental characterization of Mathilde.

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They're physically optimized for a three dimensional environment, place a deep social importance on the preservation of knowledge, should be conventionally incorruptible using existing infiltration methods, and will functionally live forever barring the library's total destruction.

They only have to be trained once on any given subject, they will never have staffing issues or sick days, and they are anticipated to find their job inherently fulfilling and entertaining based on Mathilde's current knowledge of their preferences.

They also have literal telepathy and are an army of giant echo locating spiders, so we don't have to worry about separately setting up a contingent of guards.

How can you steal from a hive of giant spiders? How can you infiltrate a hive of giant spiders? How can you subvert the loyalty of a hive of giant spiders?

These answers exist, but current humanoid subversion methods are backed by millennia of implementation. The difference cannot be overstated.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

I'm not a fan of this comparison.

Yes, accessibility is important. But including a wheelchair ramp is dramatically different from not permitting someone's presence because it would make people uncomfortable.

If the We can't be a part of the social space that is the Library because arachnophobes exist, then they can't be a part of any social space because arachnophobes do not exist solely within the Library.

Frankly, if this logic were good and moral, then I shouldn't be allowed to exist in social spaces either.

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I'm just going to say it.

Its deeply unfair that you trying to tie this vote and the dislike of virtual spiders to IRL issues of inclusion and race/ethically/disability/LGBT+, and then yourself personally, and so paint everyone that votes against the spiders in a very very very bad light thats not really fair.

It cruel ball to throw at people who (I would hope) have no issues with Ethic minorities/disabled people/LGBT+/ other races IRL.

you are the one dragging it into... that area... not anyone else.

 

[The Phoenixian]

I think we should probably check with Boney whether "stick every librarian under an Illusion spell enchantment, which is Fiendishly Complex" counts as "something exotic" for the purposes of whether it would require AP from us to accomplish. I've got a sneaking suspicion it probably would.

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As far as this goes, I'll point out that Illusion was one of the two options we had for the concept, the other being Doppelganger. That would bring the peak difficulty down to Moderately Complicated.

Even without that though I'll note that a real advantage here is that sticking it in a library means it doesn't need to be portable; We can make the enchantment easier by even using furniture if need be --- probably something sized and shaped such that an Egg Layer can carry it if needed. Part of the front desk, for instance.

As far as the current conversation on the ethics of such an enchantment, I'm not sure what to say to it? Thus far, we have no indication one way or another how The We could see it, and I go see it going anywhere between a set of finger puppets, to a work uniform, to an uncomfortable mask; If they're not comfortable with it, oh well, idea scrapped. The only point I'll put in there is that a more limited spell is going to be a power draw advantage just as much as a potential comfort advantage.

 

[Alliterate]

So, I am going to ask.

What is supposed to be the in-character motivation for picking the spiders, in the eyes of other thread participants?

We have been going back and forth about the out of character motivations for that. Some persons find them too interesting not to hire, some like the joke about Weber's library being full of spider, some are bringing in real world moral considerations.

I am not seeing the in-character angle, however. As far as I can recall, the We have been distinctly distant, almost a matter of academic curiosity, and the adaptation process is expected to be arduous. The only thing that comes to mind is making the We a very strong statement about being 100% committed to the "for all races" mission statement of the library, which doesn't quite jell with my mental characterization of Mathilde.

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This was very persuasive to me, too. I could certainly see this appealing to Mathilde IC, having the We buy in in this way.

I just like the idea of us asking the immortal hive mind to watch over what makes mortals immortal: the passing on of knowledge.

Sure, the We might not understand said ramifications now, but they will eventually. Then realize the weight of what we are trusting them with. Essentially, to be our Echo-keepers.

It also fits nicely into their mythos arc as Boney has presented, coming full circle from where Belegar was ready to let them go into the underdark. Not to mention Mathildes' heavy handed example of taking advantage of the We while they were ignorant...

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The most-Echo asks the We to be custodians of the Karak-We, Karaz-We and Empire-We's Echo.

 

[BurnNote]

Cain was falsely declared dead so many times while still being alive that when he actually died (as far as we know) the Imperium collectively threw their hands up and said "nope, not falling for this again" and just declared him missing in action.

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He was declared dead/missing in action only to turn up again so often that the Administratum (the bureaucracy organization) gave a blanket decree that he would never be declared dead again to save on paperwork. And so he never was, even after being buried with full military honors.

Mind, that story says more about the Administratum than Cain. He could still be alive, his girlfriend was an Inquisitor, that's something an Inquisitor might do, but probably not. The whole framing of the series is Amberly editing his true memoirs for secret agent consumption after he's gone.

 

[picklepikkl]

I'm not a fan of this comparison.

Yes, accessibility is important. But including a wheelchair ramp is dramatically different from not permitting someone's presence because it would make people uncomfortable.

If the We can't be a part of the social space that is the Library because arachnophobes exist, then they can't be a part of any social space because arachnophobes do not exist solely within the Library.

Frankly, if this logic were good and moral, then I shouldn't be allowed to exist in social spaces either.

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I... didn't say that the We couldn't be part of the social space in the library? I said that maybe there could be a couple of special-purpose rooms for the arachnophobes, with a few Hunters under Illusion serving as the public interface there, and that the entire rest of the library, with the rest of the patrons, would be We-as-We.

To be clear: if someone objects to the notion that under the Illusion is a part of a person which looks like a giant spider, they can fuck right off. But arachnophobia isn't prejudice, it's a phobia. One of the people I'm dating has severe arachnophobia and seeing a spider move across a room gives her horrible panic attacks, but we're reading a book in which one of the characters is an alien that looks like a giant spider and she's fine and loves them, because she doesn't have to see the thing that gives her panic attacks from seeing it. And she's a university instructor, exactly the sort of person who goes to giant research libraries. If we're building an institution that is supposed to serve the entire public, then I really don't like the idea of writing her and people like her off entirely.

 

[Ericwinter]

So, to blatantly change the subject, I have to say I'm curious how the next steps in the Waystone Project will go. We've got six paths of investigation, yes, but… some of them seem kinda half done? Like, the elves seem to know how to direct leylines—given how they talked about them—as do the Ice Witches if they altered their own network and Thorek muttering about dwarves not having problems with mountains makes me think he knows something?

Meanwhile, the other networks are things that the Ice Witches and elves, again, have already meddled with and should know how. That seems more like something we just need to wriggle answers out of them for. I'm not even sure what we would look for on the tributaries.

As for the actual structure of the Waystone itself, we seem to have a pretty clear blueprint? The Rune draws Winds in, the capstone absorbs said Winds, and the wheel stores them before sending them on their way. We just need to figure out how to construct each part. For the capstone… throw our Golds at the chunk we're going to get? And we know how to store Winds in a lot of different ways, like the crystal we used for Divine AV.

 

[TreP]

I just going to say it.

Its deeply unfair that you trying to tie this vote and the dislike of virtual spiders to IRL issues of inclusion and race/ethically/disability, and then yourself personally, and so paint everyone that votes against the spiders in a very very very bad light thats not really fair.

It cruel ball to throw at people who (I would hope) have no issues with Ethic minorities/disabled people/ other races IRL.

you are the one dragging it into... that area... not anyone else.

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One the other hand, tieing real life phobia into vote against virtual spiders also doesn't sit right with me. But, well, people free to use whatever arguments they want.

 

[Tobtorp]

So, to blatantly change the subject, I have to say I'm curious how the next steps in the Waystone Project will go. We've got six paths of investigation, yes, but… some of them seem kinda half done? Like, the elves seem to know how to direct leylines—given how they talked about them—as do the Ice Witches if they altered their own network and Thorek muttering about dwarves not having problems with mountains makes me think he knows something?

Meanwhile, the other networks are things that the Ice Witches and elves, again, have already meddled with and should know how. That seems more like something we just need to wriggle answers out of them for. I'm not even sure what we would look for on the tributaries.

As for the actual structure of the Waystone itself, we seem to have a pretty clear blueprint? The Rune draws Winds in, the capstone absorbs said Winds, and the wheel stores them before sending them on their way. We just need to figure out how to construct each part. For the capstone… throw our Golds at the chunk we're going to get? And we know how to store Winds in a lot of different ways, like the crystal we used for Divine AV.

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I think the biggest problem with waystone right now is a) the cap. We don't really know why it's special and what it does. And b) the wheel. Because I bet there is much more to the wheel that we don't know.

 

[Dragonofelder]

So, to blatantly change the subject, I have to say I'm curious how the next steps in the Waystone Project will go. We've got six paths of investigation, yes, but… some of them seem kinda half done? Like, the elves seem to know how to direct leylines—given how they talked about them—as do the Ice Witches if they altered their own network and Thorek muttering about dwarves not having problems with mountains makes me think he knows something?

Meanwhile, the other networks are things that the Ice Witches and elves, again, have already meddled with and should know how. That seems more like something we just need to wriggle answers out of them for. I'm not even sure what we would look for on the tributaries.

As for the actual structure of the Waystone itself, we seem to have a pretty clear blueprint? The Rune draws Winds in, the capstone absorbs said Winds, and the wheel stores them before sending them on their way. We just need to figure out how to construct each part. For the capstone… throw our Golds at the chunk we're going to get? And we know how to store Winds in a lot of different ways, like the crystal we used for Divine AV.

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I think we should have a look at whatever Kislev did, since it might affect our work further down the line. Hell, it might have some use.
We still don't know what the Waystone rune actually is, I think, so I would like to investigate it more.
Also before we throw our Golds at the problem could we officially bring them into the project? Would that make things better mechanically?
If I've got something wrong, please point it out, it's been a while since the update and I can't remember everything.

 

[CrimsonOddball]

So, I am going to ask.

What is supposed to be the in-character motivation for picking the spiders, in the eyes of other thread participants?

We have been going back and forth about the out of character motivations for that. Some persons find them too interesting not to hire, some like the joke about Weber's library being full of spider, some are bringing in real world moral considerations.

I am not seeing the in-character angle, however. As far as I can recall, the We have been distinctly distant, almost a matter of academic curiosity, and the adaptation process is expected to be arduous. The only thing that comes to mind is making the We a very strong statement about being 100% committed to the "for all races" mission statement of the library, which doesn't quite jell with my mental characterization of Mathilde.

Click to shrink...

The ability to instantly communicate and share information in this age when library books disappear into disorganized stacks is a lot more useful than it might sound
Do we have a specific book? The We can check and get back to you in minutes where conventional librarians could take hours
Have new books to add to the library? The We can near instantly determine the proper location to insert them into the collection and move with perfect coordination to create space for them
Need to sort and reorganize? The We can bypass any potential confusion caused by our limited verbal communication between librarians, and has no chance of accidently working at cross purposes
Need to hire more librarians as the library grows? The We can just increase their numbers on their own, creating fully trained librarians on the spot as needed
The We are also effectively immortal, so the We might require more training in the short term, but we will never need to bother with having to hire and train up new librarians to replace the old ones

The end potential of We librarians is an immortal hive mind that knows everything about the library and can be in constant communication with every other librarian and can increase their numbers as needed

 

[Alliterate]

The most-Echo asks the We to be custodians of the Karak-We, Karaz-We and Empire-We's Echo.

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Over time, one future I could see is the potential We-librarians reading and storing as Echo every book that arrives within the library, expanding their hive numbers as required to maintain the Echo of all that knowledge.

I wonder what the longer-term implications of an functionally immortal hive mind with near perfect recollection of every book and published piece of knowledge in the Old World and beyond will be?

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

One the other hand, tieing real life phobia into vote against virtual spiders also doesn't sit right with me. But, well, people free to use whatever arguments they want.

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That may be fair, and I am the one guilty of starting it.

but I'm not in-directly accusing other voters of really horrible shit when I say 'I think spiders are scary.'

 

[LadyLynn]

I just going to say it.

Its deeply unfair that you trying to tie this vote and the dislike of virtual spiders to IRL issues of inclusion and race/ethically/disability/LGBT+, and then yourself personally, and so paint everyone that votes against the spiders in a very very very bad light thats not really fair.

It cruel ball to throw at people who (I would hope) have no issues with Ethic minorities/disabled people/LGBT+/ other races IRL.

you are the one dragging it into... that area... not anyone else.

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I am not trying to do this!

Firstly, there are perfectly reasonable reasons people are not voting for the We. In fact, I think most people that are favoring other options are doing so for completely reasonable reasons.

It is a minority of the anti-We arguments that I take major issue with.

Secondly, I am not comparing arachnophobia to discrimination!

Arachnophobia is something people have whether they like it or not, and it would be cruel and unfair for me to make that comparison.

The reason I am comparing the We's situation to myself is because it's not just a matter of me suffering from discrimination, it's that my existence is inherently triggering and harmful to a number of people through no fault of their own, and I already repress the hell out of myself to try and minimize that and I really would like to convince myself that I have the right to be myself and exist in social spaces, even if it is frequently very hard to believe that!

I'm gonna take a break from the thread again.

 

[Burned_Cookie]

I'm just going to say it.

Its deeply unfair that you trying to tie this vote and the dislike of virtual spiders to IRL issues of inclusion and race/ethically/disability/LGBT+, and then yourself personally, and so paint everyone that votes against the spiders in a very very very bad light thats not really fair.

It cruel ball to throw at people who (I would hope) have no issues with Ethic minorities/disabled people/LGBT+/ other races IRL.

you are the one dragging it into... that area... not anyone else.

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What.

No one argued not hiring spooders would be an inclusion issue, it was about how some people seem to think it is okay to force and/or highly encourage your employes to deny their own existence, in connection with a hypothetical librarian illusions.

 

[Tobtorp]

What.

Did you even read what was being discussed?! No one argued not hiring spooders would be an inclusion issue, it was about how some people seem to think it is okay to force and/or highly encourage your employes to deny their own existence, in connection with a hypothetical librarian illusions.

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Did I ever use the words "deny their own existence?" Please show me the quote? Because as much as you accuse me of assumption your doing the exact same thing while accusing me of inhumane practices.

 

[TreP]

That may be fair, I am the one guilty of starting it.

but I'm not in-directly accusing other voters of really horrible shit when I say 'I think spiders are scary.'

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That's true. I'm not accusing anyone at all. I don't really like bringing real world troubles into the quest. But I can see why someone is passionate about things that parallels with they problems.

 

[Ericwinter]

I think we should have a look at whatever Kislev did, since it might affect our work further down the line. Hell, it might have some use

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We'll, yes, but that's something the Ice Witches already know, having done it. We just have to convince them to share despite them already being part of the project.

We still don't know what the Waystone rune actually is, I think, so I would like to investigate it more.
Also before we throw our Golds at the problem could we officially bring them into the project? Would that make things better mechanically?

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I'm pretty sure they already are a part of it? Web-Mat, as Mathilde's institution and primary contribution, is part of the project, and they're part of Web-Mat. Egrimm just gets to dig in the big boy room because he's also a direct contribution of the Light College.

 

[DragonParadox]

*sigh* I think this whole conversation is misguided because the literal alien intelligence does not see the world the same way we do and could not even understand half these issues much less suffer from them.

 

[spiritualatheist]

Did I ever use the words "deny their own existence?" Please show me the quote? Because as much as you accuse me of assumption your doing the exact same thing while accusing me of inhumane practices.

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What you've been ignoring is that standard for what is acceptable is very often racist. The archetypical example is saying that black women's natural hair isn't acceptable in the workplace; it's a way that the dominant white culture forces people who are different to conform and deny who they are as people.

That said, this really doesn't have anything to do with the we.

 

[pucflek]

I would object similarly if my job demanded that I grow a beard or cut my hair. It is unreasonable to demand that an employee change their social identity to suit the needs of their employer, especially considering the library would also be the We's home.

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This is not modern times, this comparison is silly.

If the We doesn't want to be a librarian, it won't be a librarian. If it does, it will conform to what Librarian is supposed to do and be to the best of their ability. The fact that its The We is already giving it a lot of leeway, because it pretty much waives the usual organizational expectations like uniforms and such.

The spider disguise seems silly too thought. Like, why? The entire point of picking spiders is to have spiders.

 

[Talon TigerDino]

I say when the time comes we just ask the We how they feel about it. Wait, do they understand the concept of deceit?

 

[chocolote12]

Spider disguises seem to be a very divisive hypothetical, but they're also an impractical one on the scales necessary for abuse. No one in the Empire could afford to disguise every giant spider, although personally I would find such an implementation hilarious for Grey Wizard surprises-within-surprises reasons, rather than dwelling on any sort of parallel to real world dress codes and their potentials for abuse.

"What if we forced them to dress up some way and they didn't want to" could indeed make the giant spiders sad, but, like many hypotheticals based on a very real potential for negative action, the best answer we can give is to just try to not do the bad thing, and hope we succeed at not doing the bad thing.

"If they don't want to do that, just don't make them do it." Harm averted. If we fail to avoid forcing them to do something that makes them sad, there would be deeper issues at play.