It seems to be a matter of considering the arguments leveraged against the We as not unlike those used in the real world in defense of sexism, xenophobia and so on.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
It seems to be a matter of considering the arguments leveraged against the We as not unlike those used in the real world in defense of sexism, xenophobia and so on.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh my god we are literally creating Spiders Georg.
If this new We decides it wants a different name for the sake of uniqueness from the initial K8P We, and asks for input, it absolutely must be Georg.
To expect possible troubles without any premise, is like exptecting library to be robbed by hidden Chaos cultist in Local option.
Here is your explanation.
I guess this whole diversity argument is a sore spot for some people.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
I one hundred percent agree, but should note that the one saying it is inevitable is the one voting to hire the We. It's an acknowledgment of the state of the world, not an acceptance that it should remain such.
If I followed that argument correctly at least.
- Location
- Earth
Wasn't there discussion of hiring locals as scribes? That could also increase ties between KAU and the Karak, and it's not something the We have an easy time doing what with all the traveling and tiny writing.
I think it has to do with her being someone with traits that society isn't always that great about accepting. The argument that "the We are giant spiders, therefore people will be scared off by them, and since we want society to accept our library we should hire someone else to staff it" being too close to "people with X trait will drive away society, therefore we should not do business with/hire X people because that could hurt our ties with society", where X trait isn't something they can help.
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- Location
- Finland
Well if we take the random hazards not actually related to to job involved, then very little is safe in the empire, up to and including being a librarian.
But then we are talking about locals who would be working inside a dwarven Karak.
Also in libraries you need to worry about memetic hazards, not a huge worry, but if it hits, it hits hard.
Pretty much just because some people are going to be terrible does not mean you have to bend to the pressure, but in order of even try to go about fixing it you have to start from a position of acknowledging the problem. If I had made the argument 'the community aspect of the library would not be in the least impacted by the We' and 'locals is the same as We' I would be dishonest... in a way that is clear from the vote options even.
consequences
Not A Nice Person At All
- Location
- Jerkville
There is an implicit acceptance of 'bigots gonna bigot, so we have to accommodate them' in some of the potential arguments against employing the We that really kind of blows when you are a real life target of othering and dehumanization.
- Location
- The Air Capital
[X] The We
I just like the idea of us asking the immortal hive mind to watch over what makes mortals immortal: the passing on of knowledge.
Sure, the We might not understand said ramifications now, but they will eventually. Then realize the weight of what we are trusting them with. Essentially, to be our Echo-keepers.
It also fits nicely into their mythos arc as Boney has presented, coming full circle from where Belegar was ready to let them go into the underdark. Not to mention Mathildes' heavy handed example of taking advantage of the We while they were ignorant...
I just like the idea of us asking the immortal hive mind to watch over what makes mortals immortal: the passing on of knowledge.
Sure, the We might not understand said ramifications now, but they will eventually. Then realize the weight of what we are trusting them with. Essentially, to be our Echo-keepers.
It also fits nicely into their mythos arc as Boney has presented, coming full circle from where Belegar was ready to let them go into the underdark. Not to mention Mathildes' heavy handed example of taking advantage of the We while they were ignorant...
I think the argument was more about "We live on deathworld, so to fear anything that can easily kill you is a normal reaction".
But I kind of can see parallels, yes. It is sad.
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Correct me if I am wrong, but historically the key to increased literacy was the increased availability (with reduced costs) of books, not more/welcoming libraries.
As mentioned in the thread before, The We can become (in addition to their obvious benefits) the closest thing to a printing press. Locals will only be more of the same, with people occasionally and slowly copying a small number of books for themselves.
If a cultural change with regards to literacy is part of your motivation, this is why The We make more sense than pretty much anyone else.
As mentioned in the thread before, The We can become (in addition to their obvious benefits) the closest thing to a printing press. Locals will only be more of the same, with people occasionally and slowly copying a small number of books for themselves.
If a cultural change with regards to literacy is part of your motivation, this is why The We make more sense than pretty much anyone else.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Actually, you know what would be really cool? We hire the We, and then set up a book-sharing deal with Cython or something. Copies of his hoard for copies of ours, stuff like that. Then we could get to see the dragon and the spider hive mind talking over their new book deliveries and stuff.
Also we could maybe get him to write some stuff of his own, since the library will probably end up bigger than his hoard pretty soon. Maybe if we threw in an Orb of Hysh?
Also we could maybe get him to write some stuff of his own, since the library will probably end up bigger than his hoard pretty soon. Maybe if we threw in an Orb of Hysh?
Generally it was the agricultural revolution meaning you did not have to use your kids as farm labor combined in many places with the state forcing parents to send their kids to school. Libraries played a part no doubt but a small one
- Location
- Earth
I mean, subtle Chaos cultists who don't look like Chaos cultists at first glance can also kill you. It's just that people have a tendency to dismiss that the normal-looking ones could do anything wrong unless presented with glaring and utterly irrefutable evidence. And even then, they get off lighter than they should (well, not illegal cultists, but everything else).
You mean Industrial Revolution? Because the Agricultural Revolution was millennia ago when we made the switch from hunter-gatherers to farmers.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Also, thinking of book deals, we should totally ask for all the Colleges to sign up with our library for the second set of Orbs. The first ones are free, of course, as flex material and the original academic achievement, but the second… it's basically the only thing I could think of using all that College favor for.
[x] Locals
- Location
- Utrecht
I'm going to go struggle with the cognitive dissonance "the spiders are actual people" for a while, and dissect my justifications.
We are all aware that the We didn't ask to be librarians, yes? The newly split We currently plans to go off and be a hunter like it's always been, and quite probably doesn't quite understand what a library even is. We aren't debating whether or not we throw their CV in the trash because they are a nest of giant spiders, we are debating whether or not to convince this creature to abandon its traditional way of life in favour of working for us.
That is the neolithic revolution, the Agricultural Revolution was the thing that freed up the rural poor to allow industrialization at all.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] The We
I don't recall any of the options group asking us to be librarians either. And most of them, except Orders will have to abandon their "traditional" way.
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Or to put it another way integrate more thoughly into the Karak We as something other than goblin pest control.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
The option talks about integrating it more, which staffing it with locals would do, but it doesn't claim it'll be a "community center", that's a thread invention. The integration is specifically a matter of staffing or not staffing it with locals, not the We scaring people off.
Unless you're think we're planning to coerce the We somehow, I think it's somewhat disingenous to imply that letting it decide is somehow immoral.
For a more precise benefit estimation of additional books versus an ideally welcoming library, I am thinking of some old history textbooks.
Some benefits of the increased book production due to the printing press:
1. The rise of the lay intelligentsia: You no longer needed to be notably wealthy to be learned, or to exchange ideas. As far as cultural effects of the library can go, this is the big one.
2. Standardization and sharing of new technical processes. Example off the top of my head: Mining and metalworking processes spread out of the southern(?) German regions with manuscripts like Agricola's De re Metallica in early 16th century.
3. New ways of thinking. Visualization and quantification of knowledge was made easier through books, which prompted new ways of thinking about science and innovation.
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