Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Well, Cython probably wouldn't change too much. They would just have an actual building and people working to help protect their stuff instead of steal it like usual.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
No, we're not going to coerce the We, of course not. But people have been framing it as if we're turning the We away because racism. We're not. The We currently has no feelings one way or the other about the job, and we're not wronging them by not offering it to them.
My dear fellows, I believe We has the most merit as a librarian based on the following criteria . . . huh . . .
crawl out of the ba rephrase the argument in accordance with the evolving trend:
Step 1: Set up a shrine to Ranald.
Step 2: Hire locals as librarians.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Wonder where all the books have gone.
I apologize, I didn't notice that it was peak discussion o'clock already. Allow me to
Step 1: Set up a shrine to Ranald.
Step 2: Hire locals as librarians.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Wonder where all the books have gone.
Of course not. But it is notable, that none of the groups has any feelings about the job.
I'm ready to choose Ranald option over everything any day!
There's an argument to be made that educating the lower classes and raising their class consciousness so they start agitating for things like "equal rights" and "democracy" falls under the sphere of Ranald the Protector.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
There is some truth to that argument. I nevertheless strongly dislike removing someone from contention for a job for their race - a job they'd be outright the best candidate for by any other metric - even if we don't ever reveal they were being considered.
It's not like any of the other groups know they're being considered either, except perhaps the Runescribes.
Oh fuck I've just spotted the pun.
"Weber's library is full of spiders"
"Weber's library is full of spiders"
I assume you mean industrial revolution? And child labor was still pretty widespread there for a good long time. State sponsored, mandatory schooling definitly is a big one though, that's the only way you can really get near full literacy. An the industrial revolution, coupled with the enlightenment, was a big driver for the ideological and practical demand for a strongly educated population (there just isn't such a return on investment in an agrarian society), as well as the ability to pay for it (especially in the transition).
That said, wide literacy starts long before that, with cheap printing. That means both the printing press, and cheap paper+ink. Otherwise the skill just isn't that useful to most people, because it's just too expensive. It's kind of like computers used to be. A research institute would have a main frame, and a bit later the rich or buisness would have it for personal use (mostly productivity). But the true effect would only become visible once most people could afford one, and it would take a generation or so until the effect of growing up with computers would be visible.
Now, does the empire have cheap printing? I'd say so. Young Mathilde read trashy novels, which are very much an object of mass printing times. IIRC, it currently does not have movable types, which is another big step, but you can produce written works in large volumes. Therefore, the issue is mostly finding something that people want to read a whole lot. IRL, that was the bible (driven by and driving the protestant reformation). I don't think the empire has the same kind of super-important text to super-charge interest, but it's going to happen anyways, just slower. As more people can read, more things come out that are of interest, and more people know someone that can teach them. It's a self-reinforcing cycle, and by my judgement the empire is already in the process.
Modern libraries will ultimately be produced by this process, but at that point you are already quite far along.
- Location
- A Pit Of My Own Making
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Okay now it needs to happen just so this pun is a thing.
Because, putting aside the confusion regarding the nature of the DragonParadox's argument, the books are still scarce and valuable. That quality is what defines the nature of medieval libraries, not some mud-colored preference somehow motivated by ASOIAF. We can't magically make the Locals option change that.
Conversely, the We *can* change that.
Can Chaos corrupt printing presses?
The Empire does not have movable type, that has been asked before so cheaper than the middle ages, but not yet cheap printing.
- Location
- A Pit Of My Own Making
- Pronouns
- He/Him
All the copies of those novels are just written by some very well paid scribes.
Trust me, I know things.
Trust me, I know things.
Apparently I'm not being clear. It has been implied that not giving the We, specifically, this job is morally wrong. I am saying that no it is not. It is also not morally wrong to not give the job to anyone else but that argument hasn't been made so I haven't argued against it.
'Outright the best candidate for by any other metric' is an opinion, and it is one I don't share. Forget the We for a moment and consider a librarian with the following characteristics:
-can reach books extremely quickly, even in a large library
-is literate
-immortal
-intimidating
-has never seen a library in their life, possibly doesn't know what that is
-previous skills include hunting and weaving
-has been a hermit most of their life, has very limited experience with any society at all (though they did read some books)
Is this outright the best candidate for librarian? You can think so, but I think you'll have to admit that it's not all positives. There are some attributes here that don't scream 'librarian' at all, and on which other candidates have a clear advantage.
[x] The We
[x] Cython
[x] Cython
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
"Weber says they're dwarves."
"She what? No, you misunderstood. She didn't say they were Dawi, she said they were The We."
"That's what I said!"
@Boney, assuming Cython doesn't become librarian, would gifting copies of all books acquired by the library since its founding and until the Waystone project is concluded to their hoard be a valid enticement for them participating in the Waystone project?
Obviously at any time Cython could borrow any books in the library by asking nicely, but for a dragon there should be an ocean of difference between having been granted temporary sovereignty of the books and permanently adding them to the hoard, so it should be a valid incentive.
If it would be valid, could some or all of the costs of book copying for the hoard be payed by a stipends from the Empire and Karaz Ankor, because it would be directly beneficial to them for the Waystone project to work better and giving gold is easier than giving limited work time of Wizards and Runesmiths, in particular for Karaz Ankor, due to it having relatively more gold than dwarfs and due to Mathilde's dwarf reputation: yes?
Hm, and then a question of Liber Mortis, am I right to understand that it's actually on loan from Mathilde to the library for bonus smugness points and not owned by the library per se, and would be excluded from such an agreement? E.g. if Mathilde would go for a multi-year expedition to Lustria or Cathay or somewhere else far away from K8P, she would take Liber Mortis with her and not leave it at the library, correct?
Obviously at any time Cython could borrow any books in the library by asking nicely, but for a dragon there should be an ocean of difference between having been granted temporary sovereignty of the books and permanently adding them to the hoard, so it should be a valid incentive.
If it would be valid, could some or all of the costs of book copying for the hoard be payed by a stipends from the Empire and Karaz Ankor, because it would be directly beneficial to them for the Waystone project to work better and giving gold is easier than giving limited work time of Wizards and Runesmiths, in particular for Karaz Ankor, due to it having relatively more gold than dwarfs and due to Mathilde's dwarf reputation: yes?
Hm, and then a question of Liber Mortis, am I right to understand that it's actually on loan from Mathilde to the library for bonus smugness points and not owned by the library per se, and would be excluded from such an agreement? E.g. if Mathilde would go for a multi-year expedition to Lustria or Cathay or somewhere else far away from K8P, she would take Liber Mortis with her and not leave it at the library, correct?
- Location
- Tusita Heaven
I'm not being able to accompany the discussion, so apologize if these arguments have already been talked over. Kindly ignore them if it's the case.
But please consider the following:
(1) Cython, as a single entity, will be unable to run the library all by himself. He will necessarily have to hire staff, so he will necessarily integrate another one of the options into his own. Even if his standards of hiring are incredibly high and demanding (which is something dwarves would approve of, mind you). But really, picking Cython means that there will also be an adjutant staff of humans/halflings/dwarves or whatever else, unlike with the We that are able to do everything on their own.
So Cython also has more of an integrating value.
(2) There is talking that Cython will see the library as "part of his hoard", and that in a distant future he might just pick up and leave, taking the library with him because "well, it's mine, so I'm taking it". However:
-This will still be a library in a fortified Karak. And Karak vaults many times outlive their citizens. If we are talking about Cython leaving in an unknown future, there is also an argument that he would simply lock the library and keep his stuff there, since using abandoned Karaks as vaults is quite the dragon thing to do.
-The We consider knowledge they acquire as "part of themselves". So if the We also decide to move, there is no logical reason as to why they also wouldn't want to take the books with them. If the We grows and develops, the books will be parts of their brains, knowledge and self, so they would be even less willing to leave them behind in a supposed "migrate elsewhere" scenario that many are attributing to Cython as well.
"But if the We were to leave, we could just copy the books before they go!"
Well, that argument also applies to Cython.
And that argument is flawed in the sense that some of the books in the library are the kinds of books we won't really want to see copied.
And finally. The We are still young as a hive mind, from what I understand, and they need to read the books in order to know their content and "assimilate" it. Much of the attraction of the We is that the We might be a librarian that "knows where everything is, everywhere, all the time". So that necessarily means that the We will have to read all the books in the library to function effectively.
All of them.
That might feel attractive to some, but I am disinclined to have a growing hive mind be obligated to read things that would give even Mathilde pause. Cython, on the other hand, is perfectly suited for that sort of weight.
And really. With Cython, the "absolutely restricted" section would literally have the books in his own presence. No better safety than that.
But please consider the following:
(1) Cython, as a single entity, will be unable to run the library all by himself. He will necessarily have to hire staff, so he will necessarily integrate another one of the options into his own. Even if his standards of hiring are incredibly high and demanding (which is something dwarves would approve of, mind you). But really, picking Cython means that there will also be an adjutant staff of humans/halflings/dwarves or whatever else, unlike with the We that are able to do everything on their own.
So Cython also has more of an integrating value.
(2) There is talking that Cython will see the library as "part of his hoard", and that in a distant future he might just pick up and leave, taking the library with him because "well, it's mine, so I'm taking it". However:
-This will still be a library in a fortified Karak. And Karak vaults many times outlive their citizens. If we are talking about Cython leaving in an unknown future, there is also an argument that he would simply lock the library and keep his stuff there, since using abandoned Karaks as vaults is quite the dragon thing to do.
-The We consider knowledge they acquire as "part of themselves". So if the We also decide to move, there is no logical reason as to why they also wouldn't want to take the books with them. If the We grows and develops, the books will be parts of their brains, knowledge and self, so they would be even less willing to leave them behind in a supposed "migrate elsewhere" scenario that many are attributing to Cython as well.
"But if the We were to leave, we could just copy the books before they go!"
Well, that argument also applies to Cython.
And that argument is flawed in the sense that some of the books in the library are the kinds of books we won't really want to see copied.
And finally. The We are still young as a hive mind, from what I understand, and they need to read the books in order to know their content and "assimilate" it. Much of the attraction of the We is that the We might be a librarian that "knows where everything is, everywhere, all the time". So that necessarily means that the We will have to read all the books in the library to function effectively.
All of them.
That might feel attractive to some, but I am disinclined to have a growing hive mind be obligated to read things that would give even Mathilde pause. Cython, on the other hand, is perfectly suited for that sort of weight.
And really. With Cython, the "absolutely restricted" section would literally have the books in his own presence. No better safety than that.
The We would not read all the books, indeed it is the fact that books are knowledge they do not need to read and echo that makes them attractive to the We, knowledge without caloric cost. If they had to read them and keep their contents in the brain of an egg layer that would not be the case.
No, no, you are being clear enough, I just noted, that's all.
That's immediate win to me. Said librarian has infinite time to learn how to operate library and how to interact with visitors. And Mathilde will provide him a teacher.
Now, if we needed to start Library immediately, for some reason, that would be bad option.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
"Immortal" beats out the latter 3 considerations, in the long run. If you're focused on short term returns that's fine, but I think there's an extremely strong argument that in the long term - in this Library that we've explicitly built as a legacy that will last millenia - the We is the best candidate for running the Library.