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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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MrHobbit said:
I was referring to Mathilde deploying tributaries. That's why I mentioned AP. I also mentioned us potentially deploying tributaries to Kislev. We can pretty safely leave tributaries to the Elector Counts to manage. We don't need to impress them anymore. We can just point to Praag for that.
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The thing is most imperial provinces do not have a Praag in their land and some of them might need to be eased into it with the cheaper tributary over the 'pay runesmith and archmage prices' Waystone.
 
MrHobbit is right - a lot of places will eventually get our tributaries without us lifting another finger, so we should think of a tributary-spreading action as getting the ball rolling, just as with the waystones proper. It guarantees we'll start solving the problem in the area we place them in, people outside the Project start learning the project and sharing it, and positive results will accelerate the rate at which people will independently seek them out.

For example, on top of refining the Dreaming Wood tributary with this action into something that can be mass-produced, now a bunch of Jades learned the ritual, and that seemed to work out well for them and the elves, so maybe some Electors will be like "oh, you did things to make a forest less hostile? I want my forests to be nicer too, can you do that here?".

...Still, it might be necessary to spread the Halethan tributary ourselves, to troubleshoot any problems like it happened in this action - e.g. set up adequate troops or knights to protect spellcasters in the Forest of Shadows if the tributary fails there, and possibly setting up reasonable excuses for any Hedgewise to be safe from scrutiny.
 
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DragonParadox said:
The thing is most imperial provinces do not have a Praag in their land and some of them might need to be eased into it with the cheaper tributary over the 'pay runesmith and archmage prices' Waystone.
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I wish that there was some way that we could record 'rate of return' for both tributaries and waystones, but I don't think that the economic data to calculate the effect exists. Also very hard to separate the effects from random chance.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Probably not? Ironhammer isn't Belegar's name, it's an epithet. In the same way Thorgrim is Grudgebearer and Ungrim is Ironfist. They refer to a specific Dwarf (which is probably useful, given Dwarfen culture likely favours repeating names!). Dwarfs seem to have patronymic names (e.g. Ulleksson, Alriksson etc.) but are referred to by an epithet if they possess one.
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He is of Clan Angrund though.

Which means Ironhammer.
 
MrHobbit said:
I don't think we are going to learn how waystone gold is alloyed, or will be able to replicate it if we can. It's made by Caledor. The Dwarves might be able to replicate it, but honestly I don't expect them to be able to. As far as I understand it, it took until about the early 1900s for it to be used in manufacture, over a century after it was discovered.
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Per elf batman (and IIRC later boney Q&A) Saphery knows how to make it. Between the treaty and brownie points from elfcation, we should be able to bargain for that information once it becomes relevant.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
Per elf batman (and IIRC later boney Q&A) Saphery knows how to make it. Between the treaty and brownie points from elfcation, we should be able to bargain for that information once it becomes relevant.
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I think they might know how to smelt it once they have titanium, but can't actually make titanium. But i'm not certain thats correct, its just how i understood that information.
 
pucflek said:
I think they might know how to smelt it once they have titanium, but can't actually make titanium. But i'm not certain thats correct, its just how i understood that information.
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"The capability, but not the implication" sounds more like "Titanium is not worth the effort." Which could just be "we can source it from cathay, but it's expensive" but could also very well be "we can make it, but it's expensive."
 
reignonyrparade said:
"The capability, but not the implication" sounds more like "Titanium is not worth the effort." Which could just be "we can source it from cathay, but it's expensive" but could also very well be "we can make it, but it's expensive."
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Or that they can make it but they consider it beneath them to spend time doing so, and thus charge out the Wazoo for anyone trying to commission it.

Ulthuan being Ulthuan, I believe they can roughly be counted on to get as favorable a supply of titanium via trade as anyone, if they decide they want it.
 
DragonParadox said:
The thing is most imperial provinces do not have a Praag in their land and some of them might need to be eased into it with the cheaper tributary over the 'pay runesmith and archmage prices' Waystone.
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They all know how bad Praag is. They'll hear rumors about it being helped and want it for themselves. They'll hear rumors about how the Black Water lake gets tamer over the years and want that for themselves. Our waystone is also about as cheap as you can get.

Prime 2.0 said:
Per elf batman (and IIRC later boney Q&A) Saphery knows how to make it. Between the treaty and brownie points from elfcation, we should be able to bargain for that information once it becomes relevant.
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Where did Boney say that? I know Eltharion didn't. Regardless, if Saphery can make it, that would imply it needs magic in the process. That's what it is known for after all.

Boney said:
He listens to your theorizing on the Titan-metal used in the original capstones, and confirms that the Kingdom of Caledor would have the ability, though not necessarily the inclination, to make more of the stuff. Though he doesn't outright say it would be expensive, it's implied enough that you're happy you considered the alternatives.
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reignonyrparade said:
"The capability, but not the implication" sounds more like "Titanium is not worth the effort." Which could just be "we can source it from cathay, but it's expensive" but could also very well be "we can make it, but it's expensive."
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MrHobbit quoted it in his last comment, i thought they were talking about waystone gold, but it turns out they were talking about titan metal itself, so i thought wrong.
 
Remember that Tributaries don't help with Praag or similar.

They drain Earthbound Magic and only Earthbound Magic.

They do not drain Dhar or the Winds. They don't meaningfully weaken Chaos, as far as I can tell, they reduce the general level of oddity and low level magical phenomena, rather than impacting high energy magic caused by concentrations of the former two.

Natch said:
Mathilde already scouted the still-active Bugman's Brewery nexus in T39. It's got magic flowing into it from Karak Norn and out to the Iron Isle nexus at Nuln. Her prior speculation is that the leyline to Athel Loren was intentionally unplugged during the War of the Beard, long long before Karak Norn and Bugman's Brewery were founded to keep an eye on those nexuses.
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I observed this around a year ago, but I think it's still valid:

Alratan said:
Athel Loren wasn't inhabited at all by elves until after the end of the war with the dwarves. The elves instead imprisoned the forest spirits, so if anything considered it enemy territory.

It was only four hundred years after the end of the war that the elves cut a deal with the forest and became the Asrai. That was the point that they lived anywhere beyond the edges of the forest.

There is apparently currently a nexus within Athel Loren.

Karak Norn has apparently redirected its Waystone output to avoid sending energy to the Athel Loren nexus.

Now, some thoughts.

During the Golden Age, the elves apparently feared Athel Loren and its spirits enough that they didn't enter it. In light of that, it seems very unlikely that they would have built a Waystone nexus inside there.

Given Athel Loren was hostile to the elves (and admittedly, anyone else who entered) during the war, if there was a nexus there then then Karak Norn wouldn't have such a strong reason to cut the power supply there, as it wouldn't hurt the elves and might annoy the tree spirits and cause them to retaliate at a bad time.

If there is indeed a nexus inside Athel Loren, is it possible that it was built after the elven colonists became the Asrai? If so, could that mean that Karak Norn redirected the energy flow after then?

That would mean that the Asrai could be expected to retain significant knowledge of the Waystone network. It would also mean that Karak Norn might also know more than we would expect, given they would have had to do so several centuries after the end of the Golden Age.
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Orbmorb said:
I wonder if Marienburg will be able to make a profit selling spider silk to Ulthuan
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Not the luxury-silk, certainly. If Laurelorn can make silk for everyday use, then Ulthuan almost certainly can too - and even if they couldn't, they're still the world's largest naval power, they must see a good amount of trade with Cathay.

The armor-silk is probably okay for elves who don't have access to ithilmar, but it's not game-changing in any sense.

The rope silk... maybe that could sell. If Ulthuan uses cranes to unload stuff from ships, it would sell - but who knows, maybe they just use copious amounts of magic for that. Something like an oversized Move enchantment, or maybe elementals?
 
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Alratan said:
Remember that Tributaries don't help with Praag or similar.

They drain Earthbound Magic and only Earthbound Magic.

They do not drain Dhar or the Winds. They don't meaningfully weaken Chaos, as far as I can tell, they reduce the general level of oddity and low level magical phenomena, rather than impacting high energy magic caused by concentrations of the former two.
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The Dhar is largely formed from that earthbound magic, so draining more of it before it can curdle means a net reduction in Dhar regardless, speeding reclamation of tainted land by the waystone the tributary is attached to.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
The Dhar is largely formed from that earthbound magic, so draining more of it means a net reduction in Dhar occurs reduced regardless, speeding reclamation of tainted land.
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I can't recall any mention of Earthbound Magic becoming Dhar, only of the Winds curdling into Dhar if they become stagnant or being converted into Dhar by contagion from other Dhar.

Do you recall where we're told that most Dhar comes from Earthbound Magic, or, indeed, that this conversion is possible at all?

Remember, the elves built the Waystones to cleanse the land and drain the elevated magic levels after they re-conquered much of the world from remnant chaos forces after the Coming of Chaos. The entire world would have been tainted then, but they apparently saw no need for Tributaries.
 
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Alratan said:
I can't recall any mention of Earthbound Magic becoming Dhar, only of the Winds curdling into Dhar if they become stagnant or being converted into Dhar by contagion from other Dhar.

Do you recall where we're told that most Dhar comes from Earthbound Magic.
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Half the premise of the waystones being a thing that is needed is that magic settles, accumulates, and then curdles, and needs to be disposed of before it does that. The earthbound magic is a stage of that settling.

Like, for instance, you can't just stockpile unattuned earthbound magic, it eventually turns into something else. That can be one or more of the 8 winds which will eventually touch each other and become dhar under uncontrolled conditions, or Dhar directly especially if there's lots of dhar right there to gobble it up/convert it.

I don't have an exact quote and I'm not going to go searching for it, but this isn't new or niche info. How earthbound magic works and why you can't leave it alone forever, nor fuel big spells with it (unless you attune it to some other concept like the elementalists do) is permeated throughout the quest's lore dumps.

That said, all of that only avoids being moot if you interpret boney saying that kislev quest would be cheering about nat100s if we did a tributary action for them as for being for reasons unrelated to chaos contamination.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
Half the premise of the waystones being a thing that is needed is that magic settles, accumulates, and then curdles, and needs to be disposed of before it does that. The earthbound magic is a stage of that settling.

Like, for instance, you can't just stockpile unattuned earthbound magic, it eventually turns into something else. That can be one or more of the 8 winds which will eventually touch each other and become dhar under uncontrolled conditions, or Dhar directly especially if there's lots of dhar right there to gobble it up/convert it.

I don't have an exact quote, but this is
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I think magic becoming Earthbound after absorption into physical matter is an alternative to becoming Dhar, not a stage in the process of becoming it.

Remember, as I said above, that the Golden Age and modern Ulthuani elves didn't need Tributaries because they were simply better able to cope with the low level magical phenomenon caused by elevated Earthbound Magic. If elevated levels of Earthbound Magic inherently leads to the generation of Dhar, this would not have been the case, as it would have poisoned the land they were inhabiting.

High levels of Earthbound Magic seem, based on that, just to stay as high levels of Earthbound Magic.
 
Alratan said:
I think magic becoming Earthbound after absorption into physical matter is an alternative to becoming Dhar, not a stage in the process of becoming it.

Remember, as I said above, that the Golden Age and modern Ulthuani elves didn't need Tributaries because they were simply better able to cope with the low level magical phenomenon caused by elevated Earthbound Magic. If elevated levels of Earthbound Magic inherently leads to the generation of Dhar, this would not have been the case, as it would have poisoned the land they were inhabiting.

High levels of Earthbound Magic seem, based on that, just to stay as high levels of Earthbound Magic.
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...Except for "high levels of earthbound magic" not being a thing that exists, because enough earthbound magic becomes winds or dhar. Normal waystones are also perfectly capable of sucking up earthbound magic themselves too, you know? Or any winds/dhar that form from it.

No, seriously. The entire premise of the first tier of spells being usable by all the colleges while higher spells are specific to winds is because you can't have too much earthbound magic in one place. You simply cannot use enough of it to power anything more than trivial spells. If it keeps building up, it turns into a wind or dhar.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
Like, for instance, you can't just stockpile unattuned earthbound magic, it eventually turns into something else. That can be one or more of the 8 winds which will eventually touch each other and become dhar under uncontrolled conditions, or Dhar directly especially if there's lots of dhar right there to gobble it up/convert it.
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Prime 2.0 said:
No, seriously. The entire premise of the first tier of spells being usable by all the colleges while higher spells are specific to winds is because you can't have too much earthbound magic in one place. You simply cannot use enough of it to power anything more than trivial spells. If it keeps building up, it turns into a wind or dhar.
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I think it's more accurate to say College-trained wizards can't stockpile earthbound magic, as in the presence of wizard-soul-amounts of Winds it resonates with and thus becomes the Wind. However, Boney's described that the area around a nexus is significantly higher in earthbound magic density to a degree elementalists and the like find useful, as even though it's constantly being drained the nexus is still causing more of it to accumulate towards that point overall, without turning into either Dhar or Winds. Altdorf is specifically an exception as whatever Teclis did means the city is flooded with the Wind of the current Supreme Patriarch, thus devouring any local earthbound magic.
Boney said:
The short version is that Earthbound magic taken from a specific medium temporarily retains properties of and a link to that medium which can be used to manipulate it. These properties are lost in the presence of Winds as earthbound magics resonate more strongly with Winds than they do with elements like water or fire, which means that experiments performed by most Wizards and in most College laboratories would inevitably fail.
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Boney said:
It's like living next to a whirlpool. As long as you've got a strong enough grip, you can dip a bucket into it and get a bucketful of water even though it's constantly being drained away. Between that and the nexus swallowing any Winds, Elementalists would find the area around nexuses to be ideal to set up in, as long as some Elven meddler hasn't completely warped the city to be constantly awash in Winds despite the nexus' presence.
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This is a bit random, but I wonder if it'd have been possible to use something like the planet's rotation or the movement of the sun in the sky as an additional pulling force for the Waystones.
 
I personally imagine that Tributaries do contribute with their ability to siphon earthbound magic.

I imagine that a given area can only contain so much earthbound magic, and that draining it allows Winds to settle into EB magic rather than curdle or whatever.
 
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