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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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So a random thought occurred that I think might be a point in favor of the We. Namely the restricted section of the library with books that we won't let the average person off the street read.

By picking the We we make things far simpler in that regard as rather than having to vet the people librarians who are allowed to enter that sections, especially the higher levels of security, and something could potentially slip through the cracks. However with the We there is no issue like that as we 100% know there isn't something in their past to worry about and no divided loyalties.

Also the We likely won't ask questions if Mathilde decides to put books obtained through Ranaldite methods compared to how a regular staff of librarians would.
 
LadyLynn said:
I would object similarly if my job demanded that I grow a beard or cut my hair. It is unreasonable to demand that an employee change their social identity to suit the needs of their employer, especially considering the library would also be the We's home.
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There's a lot of jobs that expect certain hygiene Standarte ( pertaining to hair length and facial hair, not trying to imply cleanliness here) and certain dress codes and uniforms. What's the difference?
 
I fully agree with proliferating the impression that any random inhabitant of the Karak that passes by on the street could secretly be a giant spider in disguise.
 
Sinsystems said:
Also the We likely won't ask questions if Mathilde decides to put books obtained through Ranaldite methods compared to how a regular staff of librarians would.
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Why would the librarians know where those books come from? Wouldn't them simply be given to Mathilde personnally, who would then bring them to the librarians?
Tbh I really don't want us to go for the Ranaldite option. I find it distasteful from an ethical pov, and as a book lover myself I'd be pissed if someone took my precious' from me.
 
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Tobtorp said:
Yes it's a new way of life. It's also our library. We will pay them to do a job, they will do that job to get paid. Expecting certain things from the employed is not wrong. If it was an expectation to change their whole way of life i would agree with you but it's really not.
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Yes, yes it is. An employer doesn't get to define who their employees get to be, and those that try to do so are super discriminatory assholes.

Because yes those exist, are common even, and use the exact same 'arguments' you have been using so far.
 
K von Carstein said:
Why would the librarians know where those books come from? Wouldn't them simply be given to Mathilde personnally, who would then bring them to the librarians?
Tbh I really don't want us to go for the Ranaldite option. I find it distasteful from an ethical pov, and as a book lover myself I'd pissed if someone took my precious' from me.
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It's also just a bad idea. Books are valuable and sometimes there is one book in existence. So if it vanishes and reappears 3 months later in K8P then it's not hard to put two and two together and get 4.
 
Ericwinter said:
This would be their new way of life and involve just being themself.
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Allowing one or two drones to be under illusion spell is not making We not themselves.
Otherwise using artifact to help communication with dwarfs would be also considered such.

LadyLynn said:
I would object similarly if my job demanded that I grow a beard or cut my hair. It is unreasonable to demand that an employee change their social identity to suit the needs of their employer, especially considering the library would also be the We's home.

If the We are fine with illusions to change their presentation to make people more comfortable, great, but that's not something they should be pressured into.
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Would you agree, for example, to wear company-themed badge? If yes - it is similar how it will be for We, changed look for one drone does not change anything for the whole We.

The problem with "ask, but not pressure" is that We have no idea what illusions and if they are necessary or not, so they will believe whatever Mathilde tell them.
 
TreP said:
Allowing one or two drones to be under illusion spell is not making We not themselves.
Otherwise using artifact to help communication with dwarfs would be also considered such.


Would you agree, for example, to wear company-themed badge? If yes - it is similar how it will be for We, changed look for one drone does not change anything for the whole We.

The problem with "ask, but not pressure" is that We have no idea what illusions and if they are necessary or not, so they will believe whatever Mathilde tell them.
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These are assumptions.

Maybe the We really wouldn't care about putting illusions on a few drones. In fact, I think it is even likely that they wouldn't care.

That doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't pressure them into it if they turn out to not be comfortable with it.

EDIT: Claiming putting illusions on a few drones is like putting on a uniform or nail polish or whatever is premature. We cannot make conclusive statements about how the We would feel about this because we are not them, and we do not have WoG on how they'd feel about it.
 
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Boney said:
You'd taken them through the Citadel, partly because this was the clearest part of the under-Karak but mostly so you could casually say hello to a passing giant spider and get a cheery wave from its pedipalps back while your ducklings stared.
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Mathilde knows damn well what she's doing when she introduces people to giant spiders. I don't think there's much point in debating this until it comes up.
 
LadyLynn said:
These are assumptions.

Maybe the We really wouldn't care about putting illusions on a few drones. In fact, I think it is even likely that they wouldn't care.

That doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't pressure them into it if they turn out to not be comfortable with it.
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Oh, you mean if they flat out refuse illusion? Then sure, I would be totally okay with hiring them without it.
 
LadyLynn said:
These are assumptions.

Maybe the We really wouldn't care about putting illusions on a few drones. In fact, I think it is even likely that they wouldn't care.

That doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't pressure them into it if they turn out to not be comfortable with it.
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If their really not comfortable with it sure. But most of what I've read here is "we can't demand any changes from the we, that would be bad and unethical." Which I just find plain wrong.
 
[X] The We
I initially voted locals, but it was a weak preference and now I think that I would be more interested in reading about the We, even if they turn out not as good as actual librarians (and the jury is still out on that).
 
Tobtorp said:
In their normal habitat of a cave underneath the earth, yeah i would agree with you. But we want to invite them to a totally new field and we and they will need to adapt to it. We need to adapt to giant spider and they need to adapt to being approached by normal people. If that is easier while one drone is under a illusion so be it.

Also Mathilde hides her magic quite often when on a mission. Which this also a mission for the we.
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And their adaptation to a new way of life like being librarians is a bridge we can cross when we come to it
But my point is that whatever that involves it should not be an expectation that the We bear sole responsibility for that process

Equating Mathilde being undercover to Mathilde hiding what she is is rather disingenuous in my opinion

Let's use an example shall we?
Mathilde and Roswita get along rather well nowadays
Roswita also has an explicit phobia of magic
This was treated as a flaw that Roswita had to overcome
Mathilde was not expected to hide herself and make herself "normal" for Roswita's sake, not when they were estranged, not when they were tentatively reconciling and not now
It should not be that controversial a statement, I think, to say that if someone feels uncomfortable or oppressed by your very existence that you should not be expected to the go out of your way for the sake of their comfort
I don't think I need to say where that line of thought leads
 
If we do end up hiring the We (not a given, the vote is quite close) and their physical form as "giant spider" causes problems such that people we otherwise want to be able to make use of the library can't (also not a given), I don't see the problem in commissioning a few Illusion items so that some of the Hunters can appear as something else? Like, I'm imagining a couple of reading rooms set off from the main library where arachnophobic people can go. I don't expect this to be a large quantity of people, if it does end up being a problem at all -- having the entire We colony under Illusion would be a weird and unpleasant thing to demand of them, absolutely, but a few of the Hunters for a small special-purpose area?

Like, yeah, it would represent a drain on our resources, and if that bothers you then vote for something else so that wins instead, but if we're hiring the We we clearly aren't optimizing for startup efficiency anyway (see "long and difficult process"). But we commissioned this library with the goal of making a bastion of knowledge available for anyone, and I really don't like the idea of saying "except for arachnophobes, they can just eat shit" when we have an option available to... not do that? It'd be like leaving a wheelchair ramp off of your entrance because the architect thinks it ruins the aesthetics. Accessibility is important!

But again, as Nerdasaurus said:
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
How about this—If, and only If, people are deterred or intimidated by the giant spider hivemind, we come up with possible solutions up to and including illusions, but until it actually becomes a problem we just let the spiders be spiders.
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Let's not borrow trouble. As people are fond of reminding us, we are not quite in the age of lending libraries, after all.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Okay, I just had a crazy thought. You know all those books on Elven textiles we got? What if the Library-We read them, and decide to start spinning their own webs into silk cloth?
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I'm a bit confused on that - has no one asked the We if they would be able to spin cloth directly?
And if not, why not? To be the middleman and thereby profit or...?
 
So, I am going to ask.

What is supposed to be the in-character motivation for picking the spiders, in the eyes of other thread participants?

We have been going back and forth about the out of character motivations for that. Some persons find them too interesting not to hire, some like the joke about Weber's library being full of spider, some are bringing in real world moral considerations.

I am not seeing the in-character angle, however. As far as I can recall, the We have been distinctly distant, almost a matter of academic curiosity, and the adaptation process is expected to be arduous. The only thing that comes to mind is making the We a very strong statement about being 100% committed to the "for all races" mission statement of the library, which doesn't quite jell with my mental characterization of Mathilde.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
'lets not borrow trouble' doesn't really apply here; 'giant spiders are scary' is an inherent downside to the choice in the same way 'hive-mind' is an inherent upside.
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I'd be a lot more worried about it if the update spelled it out as a downside of the choice the way it spells out "training them will be a long and difficult process." Since Mathilde has not seen fit to explicitly say "looking like giant spiders is likely to damage the willingness of the general public to use the library," I'm willing to take it as it comes rather than express certainty that it is going to be a problem.
Murazor said:
So, I am going to ask.

What is supposed to be the in-character motivation for picking the spiders, in the eyes of other thread participants?

We have been going back and forth about the out of character motivations for that. Some persons find them too interesting not to hire, some like the joke about Weber's library being full of spider, some are bringing in real world moral considerations.

I am not seeing the in-character angle, however. As far as I can recall, the We have been distinctly distant, almost a matter of academic curiosity, and the adaptation process is expected to be arduous. The only thing that comes to mind is making the We a very strong statement about being 100% committed to the "for all races" mission statement of the library, which doesn't quite jell with my mental characterization of Mathilde.
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This:
Boney said:
at the end of that path is a staff of librarians that are able to easily move in three dimensions, instantly communicate with each other, increase their numbers to whatever amount is needed, and be absolutely terrifying to anyone inclined to misbehave and might normally expect nothing more than a smack with a ruler and a stern look from a more conventional librarian.
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Murazor said:
So, I am going to ask.

What is supposed to be the in-character motivation for picking the spiders, in the eyes of other thread participants?

We have been going back and forth about the out of character motivations for that. Some persons find them too interesting not to hire, some like the joke about Weber's library being full of spider, some are bringing in real world moral considerations.

I am not seeing the in-character angle, however. As far as I can recall, the We have been distinctly distant, almost a matter of academic curiosity, and the adaptation process is expected to be arduous. The only thing that comes to mind is making the We a very strong statement about being 100% committed to the "for all races" mission statement of the library, which doesn't quite jell with my mental characterization of Mathilde.
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It be harder to corrupt the We. While also they be good at organization and knowing where things are, I personal am afraid of spider since as a child a spider bite from a black widow put me in the hospital.
 
Tobtorp said:
It's the same as when Starbucks asks you to wear a uniform. Thats what it is.
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And there is the "it's just the company standard not our fault you are such a frea- that you don't conform to it, please present yourself as a proper person by tomorrow".

There is a vast difference between a dress code and trying to force people to hide or deny their own existence, but equating the two is not exactly a new tactic by the people that want to do so.
 
picklepikkl said:
But we commissioned this library with the goal of making a bastion of knowledge available for anyone, and I really don't like the idea of saying "except for arachnophobes, they can just eat shit" when we have an option available to... not do that? It'd be like leaving a wheelchair ramp off of your entrance because the architect thinks it ruins the aesthetics. Accessibility is important!
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I'm not a fan of this comparison.

Yes, accessibility is important. But including a wheelchair ramp is dramatically different from not permitting someone's presence because it would make people uncomfortable.

If the We can't be a part of the social space that is the Library because arachnophobes exist, then they can't be a part of any social space because arachnophobes do not exist solely within the Library.

Frankly, if this logic were good and moral, then I shouldn't be allowed to exist in social spaces either.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Okay, I just had a crazy thought. You know all those books on Elven textiles we got? What if the Library-We read them, and decide to start spinning their own webs into silk cloth?
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Wouldn't it be better to make a copy for the We who already make silk?
Or we expecting Library-We to do it as well?

Murazor said:
I am not seeing the in-character angle, however.
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Efficiency. Mathilde tends to care about that.
 
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