K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
The problem isn't to successfully recruit them or not, it's them knowing we're messing with waystones at all.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Finland
I'm pretty sure they will have learned by now if they are paying attention, or will relatively soon anyway.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
How would they learn of it yet? I don't think they have contacts with the Eonir, and we're not exactly broadcasting it for the whole public.
- Location
- USA
It could be that they're aware of the Waystone network as a whole and changes in its operation, much like how the Eonir noticed the changes in the Karaz Ankor network even though no one on the dwarf side told them.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
But would they know of the Project itself?
There's an Ambassador in Altdorf. If it's still Daroir, then they are personally aware of who Mathilde is, both from the dark elf prisoner, and from the Waaagh Lectures. They must also be aware that the Empire is building ties to the Eonir, and since one of Finubar's major policies is to reconnect to Laurelorn and Athel Loren, so he's probably paying a lot of attention to the humans travelling in and out of Laurelorn. At the very least, he might be aware that a number of wizards and a dwarf have travelled to Laurelorn, and would be interested to know what they are doing together.
Additionally, Mathilde hasn't shown much discretion about the waystone project (or at least, by Grey Wizard standards). So far she's spoken about it to other colleges, two dwarf kings, the Tsarvich, and a Bretonnian duke, so that's a very small group of people who directly know about it. However, the Damsels seem to be collectively aware of it, based on that one conversation we had at the wedding, and the Sea Elves of Erengrad have probably heard about how the Witch of Erengrad was sent south on the Tsarvich's orders.
So that's already multiple vectors Ulthuan can learn of the project—from their Ambassador watching the alliance, from their merchants in Erengrad spying on Niedzwenka, or from hearing it from the Damsels, assuming they have some sort of presence in Bretonnia (which I'd be surprised if they didn't).
Oh, and I suppose a lot of eyes from Marienburg are on the Middenland-Eonir alliance as well due to the trade war with the Empire, and we suspect they were able to get a warpstone infused mine into the Skull River, so who knows how good their spy network is.
Additionally, Mathilde hasn't shown much discretion about the waystone project (or at least, by Grey Wizard standards). So far she's spoken about it to other colleges, two dwarf kings, the Tsarvich, and a Bretonnian duke, so that's a very small group of people who directly know about it. However, the Damsels seem to be collectively aware of it, based on that one conversation we had at the wedding, and the Sea Elves of Erengrad have probably heard about how the Witch of Erengrad was sent south on the Tsarvich's orders.
So that's already multiple vectors Ulthuan can learn of the project—from their Ambassador watching the alliance, from their merchants in Erengrad spying on Niedzwenka, or from hearing it from the Damsels, assuming they have some sort of presence in Bretonnia (which I'd be surprised if they didn't).
Oh, and I suppose a lot of eyes from Marienburg are on the Middenland-Eonir alliance as well due to the trade war with the Empire, and we suspect they were able to get a warpstone infused mine into the Skull River, so who knows how good their spy network is.
The problem is, it takes a lot to appease a dragon to share anything. As for any specific info - this is very longshot.
Personally, I see either Waystone project used in a political squabbles by those who do not care/believe for/in the Project, or a bit of fearmongering backlash by those who believe this moon-shot Project will fail so spectacularly, that it will drag down Colleges with it.
Yep. People care about defending Waystones from any current threat, but can't see danger for the whole network weakening. After all, these stones were there way before their generation, and will stood for many centuries after.
Setting acceptable price is very neutral answer, you get what you pay for. In your terms, positive response would be discount, while negative would be overpricing.
Well, if fighting off mad Elves is your idea of entertainment, than it would certainly be so.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
I doubt they would fight us directly, the Asurs can't afford a direct fight with the Empire where they're the attacker. And even if they could, they would probably use intrigue first. Bribing cults and nobles in the Empire, financing Nordland and helping it spread its influence, isolating Middenland are much cheaper and easier to do, and more easily denied than a strike team trying to infiltrate Laurelorn.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
A reminder that the Project has produced exactly zero results as of the moment. Mathilde has talked about it with a bunch of people, but they were all high level officials. I think people vastly overestimate the level of information spreading that can occur from the Waystone Project at this stage. It'll come out eventually, but I don't think a Gyrocarriage leaving relatively frequently to Laurelorn is enough for Ulthuan to go "they must be cooperating together to mess with the Waystone Network!".
See this is the problem I have with this argument, it hinges on 'politics' generally. Who are the people mentioned above? How would they expect it to drag down the colleges? This is a very isolated project that takes place outside of Imperial territory, most people have not heard of it and of those who do most do not understand it. So what is the threat? We will blow up Laurelorn? Presumably the elves would be able to contain that since they are involved. It is just not a very good argument to make when speaking to wizards specifically, the sorts of fears that would just shut us down out of hand are more from the general public and they do not know about it.
Don't get me wrong I can see a lot of ways this can go bad, but they still have to go from point A to point F with a lot of places for us or others favorable to the project to put our oar on along the way.
Yep, this is a problem of not having direct enemy. Theoretical problems are seen as unrealistic, while "there will be no troubles" mindset immediately triggers "this can't be so easy, certainly it's a trap" feel.
Last edited:
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
I mean, you're right that the Asur have much much better options than fighting the Empire, but IMO, Ulthuan is by far the greater military power of the two. The worry would be the Karaz Ankor getting involved again. Which hinges less on optics (who is attacking) and more on whether the Karaz Ankor can afford to send significant support.
- Location
- Finland
There is also the Karaz Ankor angle to think about.
Any imperial messing with the project is suddenly stepping on the toes of the Cult of Thugni, and therefore Karaz Ankor.
Which is not to say that it might not happen, but it is an extra lever to use against anyone trying any funny business.
Any imperial messing with the project is suddenly stepping on the toes of the Cult of Thugni, and therefore Karaz Ankor.
Which is not to say that it might not happen, but it is an extra lever to use against anyone trying any funny business.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Oh I agree completely, Ulthuan is much stronger militarily than the Empire. The problem is that they're stretched thin across the world, protecting their bases continents away and trying to prevent Norscans, Druchii and Dawi-Zhar from encroaching on their backyard.
The Asurs also can't replenish their losses as fast as humans, so any dead elf has a much bigger impact in the future than several dead humans.
What I mean by attacking is that it's easier to defend than attack. Even if the Karaz Ankor doesn't intervene, Ulthuan would still be fighting a war on the other side of the sea, with supply lines stretching across half an ocean. The Imperial forces would be on their home turf, with much easier logistics and the support of the population. Ulthuani forces would be forced to dedicate a good portion of their numbers to protect those supply lines.
Last edited:
- Location
- Finland
I don't think it is so much a "there will be no troubles" as it is a "there will be trouble either way and they are unlikely to be a major issue".
At least for me.
Potential pitfalls just change, they don't go away, no matter which way we had decided to go.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ulthuan declaring war on the Empire is a surefire way to their extinction. The instant they manage to muster enough military force to invade and actually win against the Empire, the Druchii can take that chance to conquer Ulthuan.
If you think Ulthuan's forces are so powerful that they can defeat the Empire without setting themselves up for a Druchii slamdunk, then you're overestimating them.
If you think Ulthuan's forces are so powerful that they can defeat the Empire without setting themselves up for a Druchii slamdunk, then you're overestimating them.
That would be very messy indeed, that project involves Thorek Ironborw. Can you say War of the Beard Two Electric Bugaloo?
I think that Ulthuan would most likely use its soft power in that instance, it is one of the major trading powers of the world, if it wanted to it could inflict great economic harm by say refusing to trade and pressuring other human nations especially in divided Tilea and Estalia to do the same.
- Location
- South Africa
Wouldn't the pressure be applied via Marienburg if it does occur?
That would certainly be less messy that any open conflict, especially full blown assault.
Although, I guess that depends on what Ulthuans Elves usually do in this type of situations.
It would certainly also be applied via Marianburg yes, my point was that if it was the Asur doing it they would make it much wider.
Last edited:
Lets have a look at who would want to stop the waystone project, and what they could potentially do about it:
Ulthuan:
-would lose authority and control over the waystone network
--have already lost control over the waystones in Kislev
-can exert economic influence on the empire through Marienburg
--the Dwarven canal network will mitigate this, especially if trade connections to Laurelorn are developed
-can exert political influence via their Ambassador
--may risk alienating Laurelorn, which is against the Phoenix King's desire to reconnect to the colonies.
-Could send a magical expert to sieze control of the project
--this is Mathilde's project, and Imperial law is on her side. Could also risk alienating Laurelorn and antagonising the Karaz Ankor.
-could send a military force to stop it
--Battle of Grootscher Marsh 2: Electric Boogaloo: Now We Have Battle Wizards, Bitch
Cult of Sigmar/Nordland
-10,000 humans disappeared overnight due to elven aggression. Someone must answer for it.
--those humans broke an important treaty and are currently living in Ulrikadin
-opposed to the Cult of Ulric
--don't have the political capital to do more than engage in a deadlock
-wants to shut down the colleges
--last time that happened, the Empire suffered a humiliating military defeat and everyone agrees it was due to the lack of wizards
Chaos/Vampire cultists:
-just kinda want to make everything awful forever
-can engage in random terrorist activities
--these activities can rarely be anticipated in advance, but standard defensive protocol is normal, especially for a Grey Wizard
--they'd need to have highly placed agents to be able to threaten the waystone project, and there are easier and more accessible targets
--Sylvania Vampires and Praag Vampires have been defanged
--we have an experienced counterterrorist as a project member.
Isolationist houses:
-don't want interaction with the Empire
--probably don't want a war with the Empire either
-can't currently outvote the council
-don't currently have the support of the queen or the triumvirate
--we are insulated from them by the queen's support, and from support from house Tindomiel and the Ward of Frost.
--we haven't achieved anything that may threaten them yet
Runesmith Conservatives:
-Don't want sacred secrets leaking
--Thorek has the reputation and ability to leak the lesser of those secrets if necessary
-unhappy with Mathilde due to the Karag Dum paper
--Thorek is calling them out for their failures, so is taking the full brunt of their ire.
-we haven't done anything that may threaten them yet
--if we can bring on more Karak Waystones online, the High King may support us
Am I missing anything?
Ulthuan:
-would lose authority and control over the waystone network
--have already lost control over the waystones in Kislev
-can exert economic influence on the empire through Marienburg
--the Dwarven canal network will mitigate this, especially if trade connections to Laurelorn are developed
-can exert political influence via their Ambassador
--may risk alienating Laurelorn, which is against the Phoenix King's desire to reconnect to the colonies.
-Could send a magical expert to sieze control of the project
--this is Mathilde's project, and Imperial law is on her side. Could also risk alienating Laurelorn and antagonising the Karaz Ankor.
-could send a military force to stop it
--Battle of Grootscher Marsh 2: Electric Boogaloo: Now We Have Battle Wizards, Bitch
Cult of Sigmar/Nordland
-10,000 humans disappeared overnight due to elven aggression. Someone must answer for it.
--those humans broke an important treaty and are currently living in Ulrikadin
-opposed to the Cult of Ulric
--don't have the political capital to do more than engage in a deadlock
-wants to shut down the colleges
--last time that happened, the Empire suffered a humiliating military defeat and everyone agrees it was due to the lack of wizards
Chaos/Vampire cultists:
-just kinda want to make everything awful forever
-can engage in random terrorist activities
--these activities can rarely be anticipated in advance, but standard defensive protocol is normal, especially for a Grey Wizard
--they'd need to have highly placed agents to be able to threaten the waystone project, and there are easier and more accessible targets
--Sylvania Vampires and Praag Vampires have been defanged
--we have an experienced counterterrorist as a project member.
Isolationist houses:
-don't want interaction with the Empire
--probably don't want a war with the Empire either
-can't currently outvote the council
-don't currently have the support of the queen or the triumvirate
--we are insulated from them by the queen's support, and from support from house Tindomiel and the Ward of Frost.
--we haven't achieved anything that may threaten them yet
Runesmith Conservatives:
-Don't want sacred secrets leaking
--Thorek has the reputation and ability to leak the lesser of those secrets if necessary
-unhappy with Mathilde due to the Karag Dum paper
--Thorek is calling them out for their failures, so is taking the full brunt of their ire.
-we haven't done anything that may threaten them yet
--if we can bring on more Karak Waystones online, the High King may support us
Am I missing anything?
Chlof
Her Ladyship
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Marienburg. I'm fairly sure they would very much prefer that no one else knows about Fort Solace.
Is any of those able and willing to resort to brute-forced attempt to remove Mathilde as a center-piece of said Project? Either via assassination or a small scale attack. Obviously, they need to know that it's Mathilde's project, and that narrows list of possible instigators.