Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Jyn Ryvia]

Maybe try to find bits of Waystones in 'private collections' and piece a study subject from all the different parts like we did with dinosaur bones?

Hopefully we won't put completely wrong parts together (like we did with dinosaur bones) because we have an idea what Waystones look like.

 

[Valmond]

Capture a corrupted one from Beastmen i think.
Or just a broken one we can try to repair and not fuck things up if it explodes.

 

[Dermon]

[x] Imperial Dispensation

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Waystone gold, so we have a reason to involve the golden order/boys

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And maybe House Miriel as well?

Capture a corrupted one from Beastmen i think.
Or just a broken one we can try to repair and not fuck things up if it explodes.

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The Blood Fane should be a good candidate—it's in the Forest of Shadows, was one of the locations the Hedgewise maintained (so they know where it is and how to activate it), and is currently (at least, in canon at this point in time) owned by a Beastman who hass turned it into an altar to Khorne.


Anyway, of the six avenues of research I feel this should be our rough priority:

1) Waystone Gold + Foundational wheel
-Justification: those are the big mechanical elements that we don't quite know how they work or what function they provide, so lets get them out of the way early.
2) Tributaries+Networks+Leylines
-Justification: figuring out how to make tributaries and knowing where they are needed are complementary, so they should be done side by side.
3) the Rune
-Justification: We know it's important, we know what it looks like, and we probably know how to carve it into the stone. The only things we don't know are purely theoretical—what it specifically does, and how it does that. Easy candidate to study last, I feel.

Of course, if we run into a roadblock on any of these, we can always put it on hiatus and try something else until we have a more holistic overview, or more partners. This isn't a strict list, it can be shuffled as circumstances dictate.

Edit: Just had a thought. If Gazul discovered some of the earliest runes, and if there is a link between the runes and the script of the old ones, then the lore of Gazul might contain some information on that. If I remember correctly, Gunnars has given us an open invitation to learn the lore of Gazul so long as we swear the correct secret keeping oaths. It would be tricky trying to share that knowledge with the waystone project, but it could help with studying and understanding the rune.

 

[Mopman43]

And maybe House Miriel as well?



The Blood Fane should be a good candidate—it's in the Forest of Shadows, was one of the locations the Hedgewise maintained (so they know where it is and how to activate it), and is currently (at least, in canon at this point in time) owned by a Beastman who hass turned it into an altar to Khorne.


Anyway, of the six avenues of research I feel this should be our rough priority:

1) Waystone Gold + Foundational wheel
-Justification: those are the big mechanical elements that we don't quite know how they work or what function they provide, so lets get them out of the way early.
2) Tributaries+Networks+Leylines
-Justification: figuring out how to make tributaries and knowing where they are needed are complementary, so they should be done side by side.
3) the Rune
-Justification: We know it's important, we know what it looks like, and we probably know how to carve it into the stone. The only things we don't know are purely theoretical—what it specifically does, and how it does that. Easy candidate to study last, I feel.

Of course, if we run into a roadblock on any of these, we can always put it on hiatus and try something else until we have a more holistic overview, or more partners. This isn't a strict list, it can be shuffled as circumstances dictate.

Edit: Just had a thought. If Gazul discovered some of the earliest runes, and if there is a link between the runes and the script of the old ones, then the lore of Gazul might contain some information on that. If I remember correctly, Gunnars has given us an open invitation to learn the lore of Gazul so long as we swear the correct secret keeping oaths. It would be tricky trying to share that knowledge with the waystone project, but it could help with studying and understanding the rune.

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The only Runes Gazul was stated to have discovered were the Ancestor Runes.

 

[DragonParadox]

I think that one of the things we have to focus on before we get anywhere near even a broken full waystone is seeing how tributaries work and if we can fix a tributary. That has the advantage that we (as in someone on the project) actually know how a tributary is supposed to work. So we have some clue where we want to go, the trouble is 'only' doing so without burring a fortune in gold under the roots of a tree.

 

[Rafin]

I think that one of the things we have to focus on before we get anywhere near even a broken full waystone is seeing how tributaries work and if we can fix a tributary. That has the advantage that we (as in someone on the project) actually know how a tributary is supposed to work. So we have some clue where we want to go, the trouble is 'only' doing so without burring a fortune in gold under the roots of a tree.

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I agree. If Ogham Stones are materially cheaper than those trees that alone would already make a difference.

That said, right now we don't even know what the Elves are missing in order to create their own Waystones. We haven't read a single book of theirs and the Head of House Tindomiel is too confident to be basing all his hope on pure conjecture.

In other words "laying the foundation" isn't anywhere near done yet. Or do any of you know how far along everyone already is and what the foundations would be? Because if we already got all that we would out of Tindomiel then I am massively disappointed, because it would mean that they haven't ever even attempted recreating a Waystone and then written down their failure.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

I agree. If Ogham Stones are materially cheaper than those trees that alone would already make a difference.

That said, right now we don't even know what the Elves are missing in order to create their own Waystones. We haven't read a single book of theirs and the Head of House Tindomiel is too confident to be basing all his hope on pure conjecture.

In other words "laying the foundation" isn't anywhere near done yet. Or do any of you know how far along everyone already is and what the foundations would be? Because if we already got all that we would out of Tindomiel then I am massively disappointed, because it would mean that they haven't ever even attempted recreating a Waystone and then written down their failure.

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Even if Tindomiel have never attempted to recreate a waystone, they are still far from a disapointment. They have a greater and more holistic understanding of the winds and how they interact than we do, and seeing as we're trying to move the winds from one location to another that strikes me as being very important.

 

[TreP]

Because if we already got all that we would out of Tindomiel then I am massively disappointed, because it would mean that they haven't ever even attempted recreating a Waystone and then written down their failure.

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I don't think Tindomiel theorist supposed to dump a pack of Elven info of Waystones on us. It's more likely that he will add a bit of Tindomiel perspective to every research he is a part of.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Anyway, of the six avenues of research I feel this should be our rough priority:

1) Waystone Gold + Foundational wheel
-Justification: those are the big mechanical elements that we don't quite know how they work or what function they provide, so lets get them out of the way early.
.

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this is very bad reasoning if this is why you want to do it is that 'it's the trickiest part'.

'Do the hard/boring parts first' is only good advice for a solved problem.

Research is all about the pyramid: start with the little things and details, the easy and quick stuff etc etc. Make a strong base to make the build up to stuff you don't know as easy as it is possible to. Otherwise your destined to make costly mistakes you won't have and to have to backtrack.

Let's do the most forgotten and confusing things last, In the hopes that the easier and better remembered stuff will give clues.

 

[Valmond]

We should put someone on the waystone gold early on though.
No direct full attention to it, but have someone do any analysis and experimentation that could create a substance like it, or atleast figure out how it was made.
Maybe there is some store of confiscated material somewhere we could get our hands on for experiments.
I don't expect it to bring any major breakthroughs, but it would seem like an obvious low resource avenue to go for.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

We should put someone on the waystone gold early on though.
No direct full attention to it, but have someone do any analysis and experimentation that could create a substance like it, or atleast figure out how it was made.
Maybe there is some store of confiscated material somewhere we could get our hands on for experiments.
I don't expect it to bring any major breakthroughs, but it would seem like an obvious low resource avenue to go for.

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Max and Thorek: Throw us in Coach!

The runesmith and the gold wizard with a interest in magical metals and a proven (for human timescales) track record of not blabbing out dwarf secrets techniques.

A priest of Vael would be better, but it will be a while before we can get one of those.

 

[Rafin]

I don't think Tindomiel theorist supposed to dump a pack of Elven info of Waystones on us. It's more likely that he will add a bit of Tindomiel perspective to every research he is a part of.

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But, like, why? If they actually have that info I mean. That's not how research works. You don't sit on the sideline and pretend you don't have the info you actually have, expect if you are trying to hide something or sabotage the project.

To put it differently: If Tindomiel had everything lined up and all they were missing was a Runesmith (this is just a hypothetical and I'm not saying that they actually are this far along) then I'd expect them to just say that to Thorek at the earliest opportunity.

More likely they have a dusty tome written by whichever Tindomiel ancestor thought that maybe they could recreate Waystones or tributaries or whatever and then failed to do so.

Same goes for Cadaeth. She's already made tributaries. So she should just know at least one version of the simplified spellcraft needed for that, meaning that we definitely don't need to figure it out from reverse engineering alone.

 

[Copperscale]

Same goes for Cadaeth. She's already made tributaries. So she should just know at least one version of the simplified spellcraft needed for that, meaning that we definitely don't need to figure it out from reverse engineering alone.

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It would not be a bad idea to compare cadaeth's tributaries with the other tributary variants to see what is different in the ones she can make.

Edit: Also, should we try to get cadaeth's trees classified as waystones so that they fall under Sigmar's law?

 

[TreP]

But, like, why? If they actually have that info I mean. That's not how research works. You don't sit on the sideline and pretend you don't have the info you actually have, expect if you are trying to hide something or sabotage the project.

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On the foundations, the only thing he presented aside from "elves see it that way" comments was info of Dhar-assisted Winds transportation. So he either doesn't know much, or telling us what he know bit by bit. I don't really know why, maybe to be sure that we researched something on our own, not just stole Elven secrets?

 

[SakSak]

What I meant was, if said mess interferes with the Project, we will have to clean it in order to proceed. Which makes any substantial mess our problem.

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Well, in that sense certainly, I agree. Or at least, clean it enough to no longer be an immediate obstacle. We might not need to go full problem resolution on our lonesome, just deal with the parts that affect the project specifically.

 

[pucflek]

[X] Imperial Dispensation
Seek dispensation from Article 7 directly from the Emperor for the study of the Waystones.

 

[Lampshade]

I know it is early, but out of all the stuff in there what do you guys think we should investigate first?

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I'd prefer if we could first finish the discussion and address the elephant missing from the room - the dragons.

The fact that some of the Waystones predate the Vortex makes their "radiance of the stars" look mega sus.

They know about the cities of the Old Ones, many of which were presumably converted to Slann cities, and can thus fill out the obscure parts of the map.

They allegedly contacted the Old Ones in the first place and should thus know enough of their language to get by.

They might know how the Polar Gates looked unborked.

Getting one of them to spill might contribute to every topic except the purely "new" ones like tributaries and other networks.

 

[DragonParadox]

I'd prefer if we could first finish the discussion and address the elephant missing from the room - the dragons.

The fact that some of the Waystones predate the Vortex makes their "radiance of the stars" look mega sus.

They know about the cities of the Old Ones, many of which were presumably converted to Slann cities, and can thus fill out the obscure parts of the map.

They allegedly contacted the Old Ones in the first place and should thus know enough of their language to get by.

They might know how the Polar Gates looked unborked.

Getting one of them to spill might contribute to every topic except the purely "new" ones like tributaries and other networks.

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I mean all that could well be true, but it should be noted that our information on deep draconic lore is one bedtime story. I do not think we should rush to chase that thread over more readily available ones

 

[picklepikkl]

[x] Imperial Dispensation

I've changed my mind, mostly because Mathilde herself seems to think that the potential issues here are just "Dragomas gets ticked off," which seems unlikely, compared to "people not in the loop will be equipped to meddle."

But the process of going through proper channels could be one that would draw a lot of unwanted attention - you'd have to go via Algard, and since their Wizards would be involved, Alric, Paranoth, and Feldmann would need to be notified. Or you could bypass the proper channels and go over Dragomas' head to the Emperor via his charming wife, though it might rub Dragomas the wrong way. Or might not, he doesn't seem like one overly concerned with proper procedure.

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We can brief people more fully later, when we have results and they have less power to interfere.

(That said, as I mentioned before, I don't think it will make a huge difference which way we jump on this, and will be fine with either winning. I just swiveled around from, say, 55/45 in favor of College Dispensation to 55/45 in favor of Imperial.)

 

[DragonParadox]

Speaking of... odd places to get Waystone lore, does anyone know how old Sangster (the vampire recluse of Nuln) is? I ask because I recalled something about the nobles of Sylvania, they built their castles on top of ley line crossings 'for some reason'. It may well be that they too harnesed the power of the Geomanric web... and if that is the case it would explain that land's disdain for elves and dwarfs which long predates the coming of Vlad and his kin. Of course if Sanger is not one of the first turned or close to it he is less likely to have any lore about Waystones hence my interest in his age.

If we do poke him it should be with a fair understanding that he has something worth the risk(s), that is one of the vampire himself and another that witch hunters might find out we spoke to him.

 

[deathofrats0808]

That said, right now we don't even know what the Elves are missing in order to create their own Waystones. We haven't read a single book of theirs and the Head of House Tindomiel is too confident to be basing all his hope on pure conjecture.

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Ulthuan is apparently missing an unlimited supply of Old One monoliths, but can definitely just build new ones, so there's a pretty solid reason for hope there, even if Tindomial know nothing. They know it's possible, which is all that's actually necessary.

Same goes for Cadaeth. She's already made tributaries. So she should just know at least one version of the simplified spellcraft needed for that, meaning that we definitely don't need to figure it out from reverse engineering alone.

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One of the goals of the Project is to figure out a way to build Waystones without needing a bunch of precious metals if possible. Not to mention, becasue those tributaries are trees, she might not know how they were designed, she might just know how to grow more of them.

It would not be a bad idea to compare cadaeth's tributaries with the other tributary variants to see what is different in the ones she can make.

Edit: Also, should we try to get cadaeth's trees classified as waystones so that they fall under Sigmar's law?

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The law doesn't actually say messing with Waystones is illegal, it says possession of the form of gold (likely an alloy) used in their construction is a capital offence. It's much harder to do that with the Lornalim, because they grow on pure gold or silver, which people have legitimate reasons for possessing.

 

[A_Somebody]

It would not be a bad idea to compare cadaeth's tributaries with the other tributary variants to see what is different in the ones she can make.

Edit: Also, should we try to get cadaeth's trees classified as waystones so that they fall under Sigmar's law?

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Ehhh not sure considering the issue is a loottt of people would be willing to risk death for "ginormous chunk of gold that'll give me and my family the good life for generations," and this law might just be a giant "here be gold" announcement.

 

[CrimsonOddball]

Are you suggesting we kill the other magisters participating in the project?
Because the knowledge is now out there, they will be repporting to their respective colleges, and outside of silencing witnesses, there is no stopping it not.
Colleges know how to keep secrets, they are extremely good at keeping secrets, this whole project is in large part made to stop them from keeping secrets from each other, and possibly even from themselves.

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Vote just means that the option does not instantly trigger a "this is utterly insane and/or impossible" alarm in Mathilde's head.
Trying to convince multiple Lord/Lady Magisters to keep secres from their college when the issue is of this magnitude is, while possible, also very unlikely.
We might convince them to keep quiet, for now.
But that info is not staying in this circle.

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You are putting a lot more emphasis on this idea that InfoSec is impossible no matter what we do than what we have actually been led to believe
For instance, you seem to assume that Magister Patriarchs/Matriarchs will automatically know everything about the project no matter what
It's actually pretty explicit that isn't the case unless we go for College Dispensation

No, but you don't really need it. If you've got the Emperor's signature on it, then it becomes standard practice to not put those parts in writing unless you really have to because that stuff is still need-to-know only. That means the only way a Magister Patriarch finds out about it is if they do an in-depth investigation of the minutiae of each aspect of the Waystone Project. As opposed to going to Dragomas, where the Magister Patriarchs each get a memo outright saying 'your Wizard now has dispensation to investigate the Dhar-creating aspects of Waystones'.

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Mathilde's first instinct on learning that the entire Waystone network is built on Article 7 breaches is to minimize the amount of people who need to know it, which makes attention from anyone at all unwanted.

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Not impossible that they could still learn of those details, Mathilde wouldn't be trying to completely bury it with the Imperial Dispensation option after all, merely keep it on need-to-know
But even with that fairly minimal measure it's the kind of thing that would take active effort, an in depth investigation, to uncover
And if they did take that effort we could present the Imperial Dispensation and read them into it if necessary, so we'd be completely above board

With the WoG, I think it should be fairly safe to assume that InfoSec isn't an impossible dream that'll only hurt us if we try it
Attracting unwanted attention is a legitimate concern
The decision being made here as I understand it is whether we think this is worth going above some heads, and therefore potentially ruffling some feathers, in order to have that more secure InfoSec

 

[Wodger]

[x] Imperial Dispensation