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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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SakSak said:
I'm not sure the Dhar-production is that much of a secret: Non-functional Waystones turn into dhar-pools anyway, and we cannot be literally the first wizard to have made that observation. This is something Chaos related groups are well aware of, so the idea that Waystones can be corrupted or intentionally broken shouldn't be news to anyone.
So what exactly should we be keeping secret?
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We should be keeping secret the fact, that with sufficient knowledge Waystones could be used as automatic Winds to Dhar converter without clogging/breaking/corrupting. At least until we learn more about them.
 
@Boney Are Mathilde and Panoramia allowed to talk about Waystone lore in their off-time now that the Jades are officially part of the project (as long as it isn't on the Dhar thing)?
 
TreP said:
We should be keeping secret the fact, that with sufficient knowledge Waystones could be used as automatic Winds to Dhar converter without clogging/breaking/corrupting. At least until we learn more about them.
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Are you suggesting we kill the other magisters participating in the project?
Because the knowledge is now out there, they will be repporting to their respective colleges, and outside of silencing witnesses, there is no stopping it not.
Colleges know how to keep secrets, they are extremely good at keeping secrets, this whole project is in large part made to stop them from keeping secrets from each other, and possibly even from themselves.
 
picklepikkl said:
The issue with both our golden boys is that getting them to go learn enchanting is AP intensive -- remember, each tier of spell complexity requires an AP of Enchanting training, or at least that's what it took Mathilde, with her trait of a natural knack at it -- it's possible someone else would have needed an AP for petty/lesser magics, whereas Mathilde got that + RS all in one go. So, depending on what Gold magic you want to Windherd with, it'd be a bunch of WEB-MAT AP spent getting them training. At that cost, it seems like it'd be more efficient to just hire a Gold enchanter for CF and a regular Mathilde AP. We've been Windherding with Egrimm because, well, he's the lowest-cost option, rather than because it feels like an inherently Egrimm project or because the Shadow/Light combo spells seem super appealing.
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It really does seem like the inexorable march of time and inability to do everything everywhere all at once is our biggest enemy. I guess for now we're sticking with Egrimm alone.

AP really is so scarce... I'm going to assume it's not gonna be viable (or efficient) to get a second Perpetual Apprentice to help out with the library for a few turns, either?
 
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StormySky said:
@Boney Is there a book category for Dhar itself rather than the magics that use it?
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Yes, though the Imperial writings on it aren't available through official channels.

Altom said:
Speaking of Cython, can anyone remind me, do Eonir have dragons of their own?
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It used to, and one of the three towers of Tor Lithanel was a Dragon rookery. But it's been empty for quite some time.

StormySky said:
@Boney Are Mathilde and Panoramia allowed to talk about Waystone lore in their off-time now that the Jades are officially part of the project (as long as it isn't on the Dhar thing)?
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No. Tochter would have been given authorization to share certain things, but Panoramia, who isn't part of the Project, wouldn't have been.
 
If I remember correctly, I think it was stated that the only way for Panoramia to be able to casually discuss those things is if she married Mathilde. Can't exactly find the post though. I don't remember the wording.
 
IronFist said:
Are we taking "teaching baby grey wizards 101" this turn?
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We were talking about the possibility of doing that on the upcoming turn, since Eike is projected to reach the point where she needs a Master sometime soonish - I think Turn 40? But that's an assumption, and Wilhemina has said that Eike is sharp and probably a bit ahead of the curve.
 
Even if it is turn 40, taking the apprentice lessons next turn will give us some slack if we roll poorly and need a second action to learn the skill.
 
Parabola said:
It really does seem like the inexorable march of time and inability to do everything everywhere all at once is our biggest enemy. I guess for now we're sticking with Egrimm alone.
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I still much prefer "hire enchantors for favor" idea as opposed to relying on Egrimm as the light college spells are much less cool for making combos with than other winds.
 
Valmond said:
Are you suggesting we kill the other magisters participating in the project?
Because the knowledge is now out there, they will be repporting to their respective colleges, and outside of silencing witnesses, there is no stopping it not.
Colleges know how to keep secrets, they are extremely good at keeping secrets, this whole project is in large part made to stop them from keeping secrets from each other, and possibly even from themselves.
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There was this option:
Ignorance
The other Wizards don't need to know. Let them know that you'll take care of the study of the Waystone foundations, and they should restrict their attention to the rest of the mechanisms.
So Mathilde is perfectly capable to decide who learns what. And she for sure can talk to other Magisters about toning down some things in report.

It's not that we shouldn't tell anyone about it. It's just we tell only to Dragomas/Emperor, and then proceed to learn more.
 
Can someone check on the creation of our towers if the mechanics of it was merely to shunt out non-desired winds or if there was some (natural or not) attracting force inherent in the dwarven design?
 
TimEd said:
Can someone check on the creation of our towers if the mechanics of it was merely to shunt out non-desired winds or if there was some (natural or not) attracting force inherent in the dwarven design?
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Dwarves are perfect at insulating against Magic, but less effective at drawing it in. Mathilde's Grey Tower is almost entirely Grey College made aside from the actual construction:
Boney said:
What you've taken to thinking of as your White Tower after its limestone exterior was entirely the creation of Dwarves, but though Dwarves supply the stone and the muscle, the design of your Grey Tower is entirely the work of the Grey College.
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Boney said:
With a little time, a lot of mathematics, no small amount of expensive materials, a few beams of wood imported from Araby, and a failed power stone that only attracts instead of emitting Ulgu, your tower takes shape. Every morning when the sun rises above the mountains, instead of burning away in its merciless light, the morning mist flees to your Grey Tower to be absorbed; since the absorption is metaphorical rather than literal, this leaves a great deal of condensation and the ever-practical Dwarves rig up gutters and tubing to collect it, and you're now able to start each morning with a refreshing drink of morning dew.
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Codex said:
Dwarves are perfect at insulating against Magic, but less effective at drawing it in. Mathilde's Grey Tower is almost entirely Grey College made aside from the actual construction:
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To be fair that could be "Dwarfs are bad at drawing in exactly one Wind" rather than them being bad at drawing in the Winds in general.
 
TreP said:
There was this option:
Ignorance
The other Wizards don't need to know. Let them know that you'll take care of the study of the Waystone foundations, and they should restrict their attention to the rest of the mechanisms.
So Mathilde is perfectly capable to decide who learns what. And she for sure can talk to other Magisters about toning down some things in report.

It's not that we shouldn't tell anyone about it. It's just we tell only to Dragomas/Emperor, and then proceed to learn more.
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These are Lord/Lady Magisters, some of the best people Colleges have.
They can, and probably will, eventually figure it out.

Now, if you are suggesting we should vote ignorance, then fine, maybe we can keep it secret, though i find it very unlikely.
If not, then that cat will be out of the bag, because, again, these are some of the best people Colleges have, and they will be reporting back home.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
To be fair that could be "Dwarfs are bad at drawing in exactly one Wind" rather than them being bad at drawing in the Winds in general.
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I'm sure they can draw in the Winds, the question is if they can maintain their identity. Our basic understanding of Runesmithing is that it strips the Winds of their identity in order to control it in a predictable and predetermined manner.
 
Codex said:
I'm sure they can draw in the Winds, the question is if they can maintain their identity. Our basic understanding of Runesmithing is that it strips the Winds of their identity in order to control it in a predictable and predetermined manner.
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A fair point. I suspect it would be possible, but you'd have to do it indirectly. We know that Runes can repulse the Winds, so perhaps they could use the Dhar attraction method, but deflect the incoming Winds beforehand? Or perhaps they have a method already.
 
Valmond said:
These are Lord/Lady Magisters, some of the best people Colleges have.
They can, and probably will, eventually figure it out.

Now, if you are suggesting we should vote ignorance, then fine, maybe we can keep it secret, though i find it very unlikely.
If not, then that cat will be out of the bag, because, again, these are some of the best people Colleges have, and they will be reporting back home.
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I'm not. I just point out that since that is a valid vote, this means Mathilde has options to control how much her colleagues can learn.
Furthermore, since Conspiracy is also an option, that means Mathilde thinks that she can reach an understanding with other Magisters to not mention Dhar at all for their reports.

Which means there are many not extreme options.
 
StormySky said:
The whole thing is that we didn't know about Waystones manufacturing and using Dhar as an essential component (which is different from just sucking it out of the environment and dumping it into the Vortex along with other magic) until Sarvoi brought it up. Once we have that insight, it really isn't hard to deduce that Waystones occasionally create Dhar when there isn't any to be absorbed, but most people in the Empire do not have the insight.

And it's less Algard and Dragomas in particular we don't trust (besides, we can always specifically inform them later), and more that the more people who know in general who don't specifically absolutely have to know, the less secure a secret is. The advantage Imperial has over College is that we can tell things to uninformed people we want in the know, but we can't take a secret back from someone who was informed that we don't want knowing.
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TreP said:
We should be keeping secret the fact, that with sufficient knowledge Waystones could be used as automatic Winds to Dhar converter without clogging/breaking/corrupting. At least until we learn more about them.
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But Waystones are not the only possible Dhar-creating machines. You can make one by having any mechanism draw in any wind and then injecting Dhar to kickstart it. Winds are so prevalent that it takes Dwarves some actual effort (and Runecraft) to make a single room devoid of all Winds. And creating Dhar is trivial for any spellcaster: Any wizard capable of casting anything beyond that simplest cantrip can do it by simply drawing on two different winds. Wizards being mono-wind focused has nothing to do with being able to channel only one Wind, it is because they are able to channel only one Wind safely. At the start, Apprentices can flit between the Colleges to try and see which Wind they suit best and they can do this safely up until the point they have their first Arcane Mark. After that, using any other Wind has those aspects clash in the wizards soul, creating internal Dhar.

So I don't get why Dhar-producing machines are somehow such a fear: Any Magister worthy of the title probably could, if they desired, come up with one relatively trivially.

As for keeping this completely secret, we practically speaking can't.

Pretending ignorance is a very short term solution, or leads with the whole project group being declared Enemies of the Empire.
Every other human wizard in the project would either instantly know or soon suspect we're running afoul of Article 7 anyway and that we as the project head are not informing our superiors of it in direct contradiction of procedure.
So then soon we'd be faced with the same choice but with no chance to pretend further ignorance, at which point we have to inform Algard/Dragomas or the Emperor (and thus Dragomas) anyway.

Or we choose to keep the secret even then and that would mean us having gone rogue and being guilty of an Abominable Act. At that point, for the rest of the wizards it becomes a matter of their loyalty to the Colleges and their loyalty to the group, on if they put this in their own reports or not (or even attack us outright as required by the Articles). Essentially making them too guilty of the same Abominable Act if they don't turn on us.

As I said, the project group now knows it or can easily deduce it from information already presented.

So we'd be keeping a secret from Algard and Dragomas.
For what purpose? They don't need to spread that information forward, and in fact the only reason why we'd need dispensation is due to the Dhar aspect. All they need to do is inform the rest of the Colleges that:
a)we're studying Waystones
b)there may be potential Article 7 implications involved as part of the research (no further details necessary)
c)and that the Waystone Project group headed by LM Weber of Grey College has been cleared by necessary authority to continue the project.

The very act of requesting for dispensation already tells them that dhar is involved, which given the function of Waystones is not a giant leap.
And anything dealing with multiple winds (without being High Magic) can be turned to dhar-creating purposes by simple virtue of forcing the winds to interact.
So to me it seems keeping this a secret from Algard/Dragomas would be keeping secrets only for the sake of keeping secrets. But both of them understand operational security and have no need to tell forwards any real details.
 
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