Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[deathofrats0808]

Oh I agree completely, Ulthuan is much stronger militarily than the Empire. The problem is that they're stretched thin across the world, protecting their bases continents away and trying to prevent Norscans, Druchii and Dawi-Zhar from encroaching on their backyard.
The Asurs also can't replenish their losses as fast as humans, so any dead elf has a much bigger impact in the future than several dead humans.

What I mean by attacking is that it's easier to defend than attack. Even if the Karaz Ankor doesn't intervene, Ulthuan would still be fighting a war on the other side of the sea, with supply lines stretching across half an ocean. The Imperial forces would be on their home turf, with much easier logistics and the support of the population. Ulthuani forces would be forced to dedicate a good portion of their numbers to protect those supply lines.

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Eh, their navy is stretched thin. But they could probably increase their military numbers by bringing more of their populace under arms, and then strip their fleets back from their various places to defend their supply lines. It'd be a gamble, but it's certainly possible. It's very much a trade off of short term for long term, but they could do it.

As for how much of their military they'd need to defend their supply lines, i suspect you're overestimating a touch. The Empire doesn't have a particularly powerful navy, and what they do have is largely specc'd into defending against raids, not launching them. I'd suspect Ulthuan could defend it's supply lines pretty well, assuming they stripped back their fleets as I mentioned.

Of more concern would be the Druchii, but how much of a concern that is depends both on Boney's decisions about them, and about how quickly they can organise to actually attack Ulthuan (past evidence suggests not very, considering how rarely they ever launch wide-spread attacks).

 

[Valmond]

Is any of those able and willing to resort to brute-forced attempt to remove Mathilde as a center-piece of said Project? Either via assassination or a small scale attack. Obviously, they need to know that it's Mathilde's project, and that narrows list of possible instigators.

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Able? All of them, to varying degrees of success (all you need is money).
Willing? Probably none of them except Chaos/Vampires, not without some major escalation first.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Is any of those able and willing to resort to brute-forced attempt to remove Mathilde as a center-piece of said Project? Either via assassination or a small scale attack. Obviously, they need to know that it's Mathilde's project, and that narrows list of possible instigators.

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As far as I can tell, only the Vampire and the Chaos cultists. Oh, and maybe the isolationist house that worships Khaine (assuming they want a holy war with the empire or something?), but that is pretty baseless speculation on my part. Maybe the idiots from Marienburg who blew up that dwaven ship (if it was Marienburg who did it, that is)?

And, uh, good luck trying to assassinate a grey lord magister who travels either by magic horse or dwarven gyrocopter, and spends most of her time either in a dwarf hold or in an elven city.

 

[Codex]

As far as I can tell, only the Vampire and the Chaos cultists. Oh, and maybe the isolationist house that worships Khaine (assuming they want a holy war with the empire or something?), but that is pretty baseless speculation on my part. Maybe the idiots from Marienburg who blew up that dwaven ship (if it was Marienburg who did it, that is)?

And, uh, good luck trying to assassinate a grey lord magister who travels either by magic horse or dwarven gyrocopter, and spends most of her time either in a dwarf hold or in an elven city.

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There is no Major House that worships Khaine in Laurelorn.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

There is no Major House that worships Khaine in Laurelorn.

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Wow, I have no idea why I thought there was one. My bad.

 

[DragonParadox]

Is any of those able and willing to resort to brute-forced attempt to remove Mathilde as a center-piece of said Project? Either via assassination or a small scale attack. Obviously, they need to know that it's Mathilde's project, and that narrows list of possible instigators.

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Well let's look at them from the assassination POV:

Ulthuan:
Means: They have plenty of assassins and they are elves so they would probably find it easier to get into Laurelorn
Risks: Pissing off the dwarfs, this is the big one, they do not know how much the Karaz Ankor is invested in this, but they do know Mathy has the reputation of 'dwarf'
Opportunity: They have shadow warriors they can hit anywhere they spot us and may in fact be inclined to try an assassination in Aldorf so as not to annoy Laurelorn too much

Norland/the Cult of Sigmar
Means: No assassins worth noting, at least not that could reliably take out a Lady Magster
Risks: Religious and political strife, neither the Ulricans nor Middleland would take it well and if they could prove it the Karaz Ankor would be spitting mad. To be honest I think Belegar might try to raise Norland to the ground if they could be proven to have assassinated Mathilde
Opportunity: Limited, they are not elves and we do not spend that much time outside the woods or K8P. What trips we do make are by gyro and not predictable

Vampires:
Means: Yep they have the assassins, depends on what kind and how many risks they are willing to take
Risks: To the assassin themselves mostly, vampires are not what you would call self-sacrificing and the 'risk' of the project is not that critical to them. It is not going to make all the Dhar go away tomorrow
Opportunity: one of them could definitely infiltrate say Karag Lhurne

Chaos:
Means: Eh... they do not have that many assassins just roaming around the world and most cults tend to be local so if the Dark Gods take a shot expect it to be more shotgun than sniper
Risks: They are chaos, what do they have to lose? The advantages of insanity
Opportunity: No way to know, but we should keep in mind that there are also beastmen to contend with on this side

Isolationist Houses
Means: We do not know, we barely know the names of most of them
Risks: Major political backlash from both other Houses and the Empire
Opportunity: We live in their backyard, they have by far the most chance to actually pull this off

Runesmiths
No... just no, they would not know where to start hiring assassins if they wanted to which they do not

 

[K von Carstein]

Eh, their navy is stretched thin. But they could probably increase their military numbers by bringing more of their populace under arms, and then strip their fleets back from their various places to defend their supply lines. It'd be a gamble, but it's certainly possible. It's very much a trade off of short term for long term, but they could do it.

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They could definitely do that, but I highly doubt they would agree to pay such a cost. They would sacrifice future generations while they know they're dying. And it would likely make them loose influence and footholds all across the world, which would be difficult if not impossible to take back. It would make them wide open to Druchii raids.

As for how much of their military they'd need to defend their supply lines, i suspect you're overestimating a touch. The Empire doesn't have a particularly powerful navy, and what they do have is largely specc'd into defending against raids, not launching them. I'd suspect Ulthuan could defend it's supply lines pretty well, assuming they stripped back their fleets as I mentioned.

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That's true for maritime lines, but on land it's another story. Using waterways would mitigate that, but anything going on the ground would be highly vulnerable.

Of more concern would be the Druchii, but how much of a concern that is depends both on Boney's decisions about them, and about how quickly they can organise to actually attack Ulthuan (past evidence suggests not very, considering how rarely they ever launch wide-spread attacks).

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I imagine it would translate at first into a very sharp increase in Druchii (and in a lower proportion, Norscan) raids. You don't organise an invasion an ocean away in a few months.

But the biggest danger would be on the long term. As Codex said, a war with the Empire would critically weaken Ulthuan. It would loose a large number of population, wealth and ships. The next Druchii invasion would probably happen sooner than Malekith originally planned, against an exhausted Ulthuan.

 

[mathymancer]

Means: Eh... they do not have that many assassins just roaming around the world and most cults tend to be local so if the Dark Gods take a shot expect it to be more shotgun than sniper

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Unless Chaos already has an agent placed in the perfect position to assassinate Mathilde - inside the Waystone project itself. And what better disguise than that of a Light Wizard, those supposed to protect from Chaos? I'm talking, of course, about Elrisse.

 

[Boney]

If Ulthuan wanted a say in what the Wizards of the Empire got up to, they shouldn't have ambushed the Colleges' Elf Wizard Dad at his own father's funeral with a surprise promotion, preventing him from returning to the Empire and properly setting up the Colleges of Magic the way he intended to.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

I bet "[ ] Return to the Empire to see how the Colleges have fared in your absence" has been on Teclis's to-do list for ages now. Probably a lot of internal screaming about "unsupervised chiselhands" as well.

 

[K von Carstein]

If Ulthuan wanted a say in what the Wizards of the Empire got up to, they shouldn't have ambushed the Colleges' Elf Wizard Dad at his own father's funeral with a surprise promotion, preventing him from returning to the Empire and properly setting up the Colleges of Magic the way he intended to.

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Btw, who decided to give him the promotion? I totally understand why they did it, but it was a bit shortsighted. They could have waited a few years/decades.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Ulthuan:
Means: They have plenty of assassins and they are elves so they would probably find it easier to get into Laurelorn
Risks: Pissing off the dwarfs, this is the big one, they do not know how much the Karaz Ankor is invested in this, but they do know Mathy has the reputation of 'dwarf'
Opportunity: They have shadow warriors they can hit anywhere they spot us and may in fact be inclined to try an assassination in Aldorf so as not to annoy Laurelorn too much

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I'm not so sure Ulthuan does have assassins. Obviously it depends onhow Boney chooses to play things, but Shadow Warriors aren't written as assassins. they're guerilla fighters. They'd be hell on wheels as a raiding party, but that's more "hit and run" rather than "quietly kill someone". Plus I suspect Ulthuan will have something of a distaste for assassination, considering that started their split with the Druchii. If Ulthuan wants Mathidle dead, I suspect their weapon of choice will be paying other people to do it.

They could definitely do that, but I highly doubt they would agree to pay such a cost. They would sacrifice future generations while they know they're dying. And it would likely make them loose influence and footholds all across the world, which would be difficult if not impossible to take back. It would make them wide open to Druchii raids.


That's true for maritime lines, but on land it's another story. Using waterways would mitigate that, but anything going on the ground would be highly vulnerable.


I imagine it would translate at first into a very sharp increase in Druchii (and in a lower proportion, Norscan) raids. You don't organise an invasion an ocean away in a few months.

But the biggest danger would be on the long term. As Codex said, a war with the Empire would critically weaken Ulthuan. It would loose a large number of population, wealth and ships. The next Druchii invasion would probably happen sooner than Malekith originally planned, against an exhausted Ulthuan.

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Ulthuan is all about sacrificing future generations for the concerns of the now. If they weren't, they'd have lost the outposts and become as isolationist as possible to preserve their popualtion. They still choose to patrol the Great Ocean, so this is a choice that's familiar to them.

The Empire has a better shot on land, but taht goes both ways, and the Elves flatly have better tools for skirmishing than the Empire. A greater amount of flying stuff for a start. It could certainly be done, but I wouldn't give it great odds of success (of course this depends to soem degree on the actual on the ground situation, ie. where are the Elves, where are they going etc.).

It would result in more raids, but that could be countered by beefing up Ulthuan's defences at the cost of, for example, no longer attempting to keep the Norscans in the Sea of Chaos. Which would have deletrious effects on the Empire too, as they'd also need to defend against increased raiding.

Sure, and that'd certainly be a concern about whether to go to war, but if Ulthuan judges the cost worth it (and foremost in my mind here is the Emprie trying to spin the portions of the Network contained within away from the Vortex, or at least Ulthuan believeing such) I think they could do it, even if there would be a heavy cost.

Btw, who decided to give him the promotion? I totally understand why they did it, but it was a bit shortsighted. They could have waited a few years/decades.

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IIRC, it's a position elected by a council of Loremasters. And their fear was that Teclis would leave to the Empire and not come back which was why they did it then, when he was actually there and couldn't say no.

 

[Codex]

Btw, who decided to give him the promotion? I totally understand why they did it, but it was a bit shortsighted. They could have waited a few years/decades.

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Pretty sure the former High Loremaster Belannaer had a great amount of say in it, considering he's the one who used to hold the position and he was Teclis' mentor. And yes, he's still alive, staying in the White Tower spending all his days reading books and researching and assuaging his desire for obtaining knowledge now that he no longer has official responsibilities.

 

[Boney]

Btw, who decided to give him the promotion? I totally understand why they did it, but it was a bit shortsighted. They could have waited a few years/decades.

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In some places it says that a council, either Ulthuan's ruling council or some council within the White Tower's heirarchy, picked him after the death of High Loremaster Cyeos. In others it says that High Loremaster Belannaer ceded the title to Teclis.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Pretty sure the former High Loremaster Belannaer had a great amount of say in it, considering he's the one who used to hold the position and he was Teclis' mentor. And yes, he's still alive, staying in the White Tower spending all his days reading books and researching and assuaging his desire for obtaining knowledge now that he no longer has official responsibilities.

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Belennaer spends a bunch of time hanging out with the Swordmasters and murdering Druchii spies. And in some continuities training a blinded Eltharion.

 

[Codex]

I think 6th Edition went with Belannaer, and 8th Edition never mentioned the transfer of authority, so I'm guessing Cyeos is from the novel trilogy? The wiki mentions him one time without citing a source for it.

Belennaer spends a bunch of time hanging out with the Swordmasters and murdering Druchii spies. And in some continuities training a blinded Eltharion.

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That doesn't conflict with the "lacking official responsibilities" bit? I got the feeling that he trained Eltharion of his own desire from the snippet about it in White Dwarf.

 

[K von Carstein]

I'm not so sure Ulthuan does have assassins. Obviously it depends onhow Boney chooses to play things, but Shadow Warriors aren't written as assassins. they're guerilla fighters. They'd be hell on wheels as a raiding party, but that's more "hit and run" rather than "quietly kill someone". Plus I suspect Ulthuan will have something of a distaste for assassination, considering that started their split with the Druchii. If Ulthuan wants Mathidle dead, I suspect their weapon of choice will be paying other people to do it.

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The swordmasters of Hoeth have the same rôle than the Grey College. They likely have plenty of Ulgu casters (as well as Hysh and Azyr ones), and as an internal security force I can very well see them assassinating pleasure and Khaine cultists.

Ulthuan is all about sacrificing future generations for the concerns of the now. If they weren't, they'd have lost the outposts and become as isolationist as possible to preserve their popualtion. They still choose to patrol the Great Ocean, so this is a choice that's familiar to them.

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True. On the other hand, those losses aren't as massive as those that a overt war with the Empire would entail, and happen within a much longer time frame. Hear it would be a big loss in a short time, making it much less easy to replenish their numbers.

The Empire has a better shot on land, but taht goes both ways, and the Elves flatly have better tools for skirmishing than the Empire. A greater amount of flying stuff for a start. It could certainly be done, but I wouldn't give it great odds of success (of course this depends to soem degree on the actual on the ground situation, ie. where are the Elves, where are they going etc.).

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Aerial superiority doesn't do everything, like Afghanistan and Vietnam showed. Furthermore, the elvish skirmishers would be woefully outnumbered, against fighters who know the land much better than them.

Sure, and that'd certainly be a concern about whether to go to war, but if Ulthuan judges the cost worth it (and foremost in my mind here is the Emprie trying to spin the portions of the Network contained within away from the Vortex, or at least Ulthuan believeing such) I think they could do it, even if there would be a heavy cost.

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They didn't attack Kislev when learning they did it, why would they attack the Empire? And even if they did, it would still be a last resort.

 

[Codex]

Ulthuan doesn't have that much more aerial superiority to the Empire. They're not the Asrai with their War Hawk riders. Very few Elves go around riding Great Eagles and Griffons, and fewer Elves ride Dragons now that the vast majority are slumbering and they can't wake them up.

 

[Artemis1992]

Ulthuan doesn't have that much more aerial superiority to the Empire. They're not the Asrai with their War Hawk riders. Very few Elves go around riding Great Eagles and Griffons, and fewer Elves ride Dragons now that the vast majority are slumbering and they can't wake them up.

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How common are Phoenixes?
More or fewer than dragons?

 

[NavySeel]

You know the latest update has made me interested in trying to learn Anoqeyån.
I understand it's meant to be very hard for humans but we do have our Polyglot trait which I don't think we've really used yet.

 

[K von Carstein]

Ulthuan doesn't have that much more aerial superiority to the Empire. They're not the Asrai with their War Hawk riders. Very few Elves go around riding Great Eagles and Griffons, and fewer Elves ride Dragons now that the vast majority are slumbering and they can't wake them up.

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Eagles and griffons would likely be used as scouts, to help the Asuriani armies to know precisely where they are and spot imperial ones. As you say, I doubt they have enough to do much skirmishing.

 

[Codex]

How common are Phoenixes?
More or fewer than dragons?

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Not much is mentioned of their exact rarity, but the lore says that a Flamespyre Phoenix requires generations of attunement to Aqshy to exist and that it waxes and wanes with the Winds of Magic. Areas that lack magic aren't good for it. Frostheart Phoenixes are even rarer because they're older versions of the Flamespyre.

If we take point values into account, Flamespyre are 225 points and Frostheart at 240, Sun Dragons are 235, Moon Dragons are 300 and Star Dragons are 390 points.

 

[BeepSmile]

It was close, people, but we managed to beat the "stop the project" train. Good job.

I will take full credit for this, because I am the first and only to stand against it, but all of you have done your part, and I'm a gracious Victor who does not mind sharing some scraps pf glory.

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I'm still conflicted on the matter, I found many of the arguments to stop the project be concerningly persuasive and were it not for the guiding light of your RaTiOnAl reasoning, insightful and relevant ad hominins, and soyjak meme spamming I may well have made a bad choice here.

I'm 100% sure that you are not a grifter and have purchased the starter pack for that exciting new business opportunity that you kept mentioning, and have been telling my friends and family how they can benefit.

(Not sure why they kept calling me a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist tho :/ )


---
Edit: this was intended to be a 100% comedic shitpost, with a pun on "Multi-Level-Marketing". Why are there hug reacts!?

 

[deathofrats0808]

I think 6th Edition went with Belannaer, and 8th Edition never mentioned the transfer of authority, so I'm guessing Cyeos is from the novel trilogy? The wiki mentions him one time without citing a source for it.

That doesn't conflict with the "lacking official responsibilities" bit? I got the feeling that he trained Eltharion of his own desire from the snippet about it in White Dwarf.

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Cyeos is indeed from the trilogy. In there, he's Belannaer's teacher, and the title passes to Teclis after he dies.

The Swordmaster bit is official IIRC, but mostly I was saying he does do stuff other than just chill in the Tower studying.

The swordmasters of Hoeth have the same rôle than the Grey College. They likely have plenty of Ulgu casters (as well as Hysh and Azyr ones), and as an internal security force I can very well see them assassinating pleasure and Khaine cultists.

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They're closer to the Witch Hunters than they are the Grey College. Less "assassinate the ringleader" and more "round them all up, extract info and execute them at dawn".

True. On the other hand, those losses aren't as massive as those that a overt war with the Empire would entail, and happen within a much longer time frame. Hear it would be a big loss in a short time, making it much less easy to replenish their numbers.

Aerial superiority doesn't do everything, like Afghanistan and Vietnam showed. Furthermore, the elvish skirmishers would be woefully outnumbered, against fighters who know the land much better than them.

They didn't attack Kislev when learning they did it, why would they attack the Empire? And even if they did, it would still be a last resort.

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That's true, but my point is that the mentality is familiar. The difference is one of scale, rather than a shift in world view.

Air superiority would have allowed the US to flatten the Viet Cong and the Taliban if they'd been willing to commit atrocities to do so. But the strategy of hiding among the populace is much much less of a thing at this srt of time period, and the reaction of just killing everyone civilian and guerilla alike far more practiced. And the Elven skimishers would be less outnumbered than you think. The Empire has Outriders, Pistoliers and Hunters, and that's kind of it for suitable skimishers. The Asur have Shadow Warriors, Ellyrian Reavers, Skycutters, Phoenixes, Great Eagles and arguably White Lions.

Because one assumes that at some point the amount of magic running through the Network won't be enough to keep Ulthuan flaoting, and the Empire contains a much much larger portion of the Network than Kislev does.

Ulthuan doesn't have that much more aerial superiority to the Empire. They're not the Asrai with their War Hawk riders. Very few Elves go around riding Great Eagles and Griffons, and fewer Elves ride Dragons now that the vast majority are slumbering and they can't wake them up.

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They really do. the Empire only fields flying units as mounts for high ranking individuals. Ulthuan fields Great Eagles, Skycutters and Phoenixes on their own, plus mounts.

How common are Phoenixes?
More or fewer than dragons?

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More. Although how much more is a question mark admittedly.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

How common are Phoenixes?
More or fewer than dragons?

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In the High Elf army book, a Lord level character can take a Sun Dragon mount (the youngest type of dragon) for 235pts, a Moon Dragon mount for 300pts, and a Star Dragon for 390pts, whilst a Flamespyre Phoenix costs 225pts and a Frostheart Phoenix costs 240pts. So based solely on their points cost in the wargame, phoenix mounts are slightly more common that Sun Dragons. Phoenix riders are also available as a "Rare" unit for the same cost, but dragons are only available as mounts.

Griffins (150pts) and Warhawks (50pts) are much more common, however.