Your logic is baffling. People are going to accuse us of being untrustworthy because the Emperor has publicly given us permission to breach Article 7, a permission only given to the most trustworthy of wizards, but if we do it behind the backs of the institutions set up to oversee and manage wizards that makes us more trustworthy?
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Your logic is baffling. People are going to accuse us of being untrustworthy because the Emperor has publicly given us permission to breach Article 7, a permission only given to the most trustworthy of wizards, but if we do it behind the backs of the institutions set up to oversee and manage wizards that makes us more trustworthy?
- Location
- Earth
The way I see it, both ways are going to be generating a certain amount of side-eyeing from people who know about us screwing around with dark magic, prevented from outright doing the torches and pitchforks routine by our official permission. The difference is that Imperial has less people knowing in the first place, which still reduces the net amount of side-eyeing, at least at the start of the research where we are particularly vulnerable.
Setting an acceptable price at all is the positive response. There was always going to be a price - secondment of lords magister and access to college secrets are not trivial things.
Look, if Johann's dispensation to study skaven technosorcery was not considered a drastic and unacceptable beach of the Conspiracy of Silence—a conspiracy that exists to prevent an existential war between two of the most powerful nations on the continent—then I fail to see how "these six wizards have permission to study dark magic as a consequence of studying waystones, and no, you do not have the clearance to know more" is a problem at all.
- Location
- Earth
The difference is that studying Skaven tech is an individualistic research project that just involves Johann and a few of his friends doing it on their own. By contrast, the Waystone Project's very existence banks on a particular set of political positions winning (ie Eonir internationalism, pro-Laurelorn Imperials), and the other side is still pushing back. Let's try not to let them get their hands on the "these pro-cooperation wizards are screwing around with Dhar, clearly anti-cooperation is the way to go if the other side is this crazy" ammunition until we get our walls up.
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Here's another Waystone map:
I made it to visualize the conversation about Nexus locations, with the more speculative connections being shown by dashed lines.
Edit: Added a version with labels.
Edit2: Added some of the disconnected Nexuses.
Edit3: Made some fixes.
Edit4: Updated to match post by Boney.
Ulthuan (red):
1. Nuln
2. Altdorf
3. Marienburg
4. Fort Solace
5. Couronne
6. L'Anguille
7. Talabheim
8. Gross Selon
9. Bugman's Brewery
10. Karak Norn
11. Gisoroux
12. Parravon
13. Quinnelles
14. Brionne
15. Bilbali
16. Los Cabos
17. Ubersreik or Helmgart (via Athel Yenlui)
18. Tor Lithanel
19. Tower of Se-Athil
20. Salzenmund
Kislev (white):
1. Kislev
2. Praag
3. Castle Alexandronov
4. Erengrad
Lost (purple):
1. Mordheim
2. Brass Keep
3. Blood Fane
Not shown: Tower of Melkhior
The Tower of Melkhior is also somewhere within the Forest of Shadows, but I couldn't narrow down its location beyond that.
Karaz Ankor (blue):
1. Karaz-a-Karak
2. Barak Varr
3. Karak Eight Peaks
4. Karak Azul
5. Zhufbar
6. Karak Kadrin
7. Karak Vlag
Not shown: Karag Dum
1. Nuln
2. Altdorf
3. Marienburg
4. Fort Solace
5. Couronne
6. L'Anguille
7. Talabheim
8. Gross Selon
9. Bugman's Brewery
10. Karak Norn
11. Gisoroux
12. Parravon
13. Quinnelles
14. Brionne
15. Bilbali
16. Los Cabos
17. Ubersreik or Helmgart (via Athel Yenlui)
18. Tor Lithanel
19. Tower of Se-Athil
20. Salzenmund
Kislev (white):
1. Kislev
2. Praag
3. Castle Alexandronov
4. Erengrad
Lost (purple):
1. Mordheim
2. Brass Keep
3. Blood Fane
Not shown: Tower of Melkhior
The Tower of Melkhior is also somewhere within the Forest of Shadows, but I couldn't narrow down its location beyond that.
Karaz Ankor (blue):
1. Karaz-a-Karak
2. Barak Varr
3. Karak Eight Peaks
4. Karak Azul
5. Zhufbar
6. Karak Kadrin
7. Karak Vlag
Not shown: Karag Dum
I made it to visualize the conversation about Nexus locations, with the more speculative connections being shown by dashed lines.
Edit: Added a version with labels.
Edit2: Added some of the disconnected Nexuses.
Edit3: Made some fixes.
Edit4: Updated to match post by Boney.
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NeonLights
Formerly Reliable_2IC
- Location
- In shambles
[X] College Dispensation
If anyone out of the loop asks, we should be fine. Waystones drain malignant magic. Therefore we need to study malignant magic as it's being drained to learn how Waystones do it.
If anyone out of the loop asks, we should be fine. Waystones drain malignant magic. Therefore we need to study malignant magic as it's being drained to learn how Waystones do it.
- Location
- Earth
@Boney How much detail is going on the College Dispensation memos? Is it just "your Magisters who are working on the Waystone Project may need to study Dhar in their research, and they have permission to do so", or is it more "your Magisters on the Waystone Project may be creating devices that manufacture Dhar during their research, and they have permission to do so"?
They've apparently decided what Kislev has done is okay? Though that might be because they're scared of what the Widow and her crew might do to them if they try to push things. Especially with so much energy waiting to be thrown around. Smiting via sudden ursine infused weather patterns seems likely. Not even accounting for the risks weakening Kislev brings in regards to chaos. Plus tanking their diplomatic relationship with them.
Considering that I think they won't try anything and even then are unlikely to care unless we're getting serious enough results for them to notice a strange uptick in magic flow and if we're getting serious enough results. The response to the Elves trying to shut us down from... everyone? Will likely be a resounding "Fuck off." Because everyone wants more waystones. Both to fuck chaos and to get that sweet sweet magical infrastructure.
Chlof
Her Ladyship
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I hadn't quite processed the fact that the entire Old World seems to rely on Estalia and Albion till now. Oh dear.
- Location
- Earth
Kislev had a lot of political leverage to defend itself, and the Waystone finagling was already done by the time the Asur found out. Our project, on the other hand, is far from done, and a lot of people view its success as a moon shot and won't be too fervent about defending it from Uthuan's efforts to shut it down. And we do know that Ulthuan hates it when people mess with Waystones, since Niedzwenka specifically said they pitched a big fit.
Again, the idea isn't to keep the project a secret forever, just long enough so that troublemakers can't smother it in the crib.
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The elves have a lot of soft power in that they have a lot of money and magic. The elves are the richest faction in the world. Money can be used to buy elector counts to out a stop on support. Also frankly a elf host at the right time can be a kingdom saver. The elves can offer a lot of support.
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Everything will be fine I'm sure--
Oh no.
- Location
- Earth
We still have, like, at least 28 years before there's any contact with the mainland Old World at all, according to canon.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I've been going through the Divine Lores lately out of curiousity, and I think my favorite from a narrative perspective has to be the Lore of Verena. There's just so many intriguing things you can do with it that isn't about just pure combat that I think could be amazing if properly utilised, even if they leave so many things vague about it.
For example, so many of the descriptions use the phrase "a crime" as if that's something that can be tangibly defined with ease. The wording makes it sound like Verenans are all about the letter of the law when they're also about the spirit, but if the "spirit of the law" has the ability to affect some of the spell descirptions, then things can get really wonky. Verenans have spells that force a person to vomit their stomach's contents out every hour until they confess their guilt if you accuse them of a crime that they're guilty of. They have a spell that burns someone alive if they're guilty of a crime you accuse them of (it doesn't do anything if they're not guilty). There's a spell that reflects any crime committed on you onto the perpetrator as long as it's within a minute of the casting time. There's a spell that paralyses one person "guilty of a crime" with delibitating pain, except the whole guilty of a crime thing is super vague.
For the thread's interest, there is one particular spell of immense interest in the Verena arsenal. I honestly can't believe it has a casting value of 8, putting at "Relatively Simple".
Past Revealed from Page 239 of Tome of Salvation 2E:
"You can touch one item and learn the three most important things about its past (as decided by the GM). This spell typically reveals who made it, important previous owners, or famous incidents involving the item. The past revealed can only be cast on an item once."
For example, so many of the descriptions use the phrase "a crime" as if that's something that can be tangibly defined with ease. The wording makes it sound like Verenans are all about the letter of the law when they're also about the spirit, but if the "spirit of the law" has the ability to affect some of the spell descirptions, then things can get really wonky. Verenans have spells that force a person to vomit their stomach's contents out every hour until they confess their guilt if you accuse them of a crime that they're guilty of. They have a spell that burns someone alive if they're guilty of a crime you accuse them of (it doesn't do anything if they're not guilty). There's a spell that reflects any crime committed on you onto the perpetrator as long as it's within a minute of the casting time. There's a spell that paralyses one person "guilty of a crime" with delibitating pain, except the whole guilty of a crime thing is super vague.
For the thread's interest, there is one particular spell of immense interest in the Verena arsenal. I honestly can't believe it has a casting value of 8, putting at "Relatively Simple".
Past Revealed from Page 239 of Tome of Salvation 2E:
"You can touch one item and learn the three most important things about its past (as decided by the GM). This spell typically reveals who made it, important previous owners, or famous incidents involving the item. The past revealed can only be cast on an item once."
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I believe that was brought up as a possible solution to Kragg's mystery axe way-back-when.
At the very least, it seems much more likely to avoid a massive shitstorm than Tale of Metal or Breach the Unknown.
With the main issue being that Mathilde probably doesn't know about it in-character and has no ties to the Cult of Verena.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I have some doubts about Dwarfs allowing even that to be cast on a Runic item. They're very secretive of their lore, considering its divine origins, so even the possibility that one of these three facts reveals something that the Dwarfs would like to keep secret about Runesmithing would shut the idea down instantly.
It has more merit in being used to analyse things like Johann's arm I think.
- Location
- Australia
24 years. There's a rival adventurer party in WFRP 4e: The Adventure Book that consists of a Norscan pit fighter, a Tilean laywer, a wood elf spy, and Emilia Lochland, an Albionese witch. Albion is still described as "myth-shrouded".
- Location
- Finland
Any attention is unwanted as far as Mathilde is concerned.
That does not suddenly transform into being swarmed by troublemakers we have to spend significant amount of (or any) AP on.
And where is the "will trigger" comment from? Vote option does not have it, Mathilde's musings in update do not count as WoG?
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
I think boney lays it out pretty well here.
Minimal attention. I don't want anyone maybe working themselves up into feeling like they have to do "something" over this, so the fewer people know the happier I am, as long as I have solid legal cover.
- Location
- USA
If I'm reading this right, going for College Dispensation means the Magister Patriarchs/Matriarchs automatically get notified, which I suppose is equivalent to "will trigger." Especially if any attention is unwanted.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The first entry on the WoQM thread mark places the first appearance of people from Albion in the Old World proper at 2517.
He almost certainly wrote that before that book released, but I don't know that that matters.
- Location
- Finland
That is not WoG on anything but how Mathilde feels, not what will happen.
Yes, Mathilde thinks any attention is unwanted, so if we use that as classification for "unwanted attention", then both options in the lead will trigger unwanted attention.
That does not translate to troublemakers, swarms or otherwise.