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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Alratan said:
Remember that the Empire is operating under an economic/moral model that doesn't see wealth gained from trade as legitimate, or, fundmentally real. Legitimate wealth is produced by resource extraction, or to a lesser degree by physical manufacture. To a feudal mindset, all trade like this does is advertise the Eonir/Laurelorn's wealth to the Nordlanders, showing what they could have if they take it. Trying to make the Nordland nobility middlemen on a trade route is a fundamental insult to them. They don't want to be filthy merchants, they want to be feudal magnates.

That's dangerous. Particularly as it would make Laurelorn's economy partially dependent on a Nordland that doesn't truly recognise the value of trade, so they could chose to cut it without recognising how much it would hurt them as well as the Eonir.

If the Eonir are going to trade with the Empire, it makes more sense for them to put the investment in to do so via Middenland, and encourage Middenheim's merchant prices to hire mercenaries to keep the route clear. Middenheim's merchants seem to be significantly more influential in Middenland than Nordland's are.
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They can't take it though. That's the whole point, since either option inherently assumes that the current status quo stands when it comes to Middenland-Laurelorn relations, and that status quo is that Nordland cannot take the wealth and will never be able to.

Also, if Talabecland is able to regularly produce a credible candidate for emperor solely by dint of their position at the centre of the empire's river trade, and Marienburg is able to stay independent solely because of their trade position and the trade-related treaty with Ulthuan, then surely someone's figured out by now that their gold is in fact about as real as anyone else's.

When it comes to the investment on a Middenland trade route, there's also other questions to be asked, like the issue of building an entire new road in Laurelorn to connect to the Great Northern Road, either chopping through forest or draining the swamp. The route we've seen was traversable enough for Mathilde on a shadowsteed and with a guide, but not the best for carts.
 
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Codex said:
I made a compendium of relevant maps a while ago. You're free to peruse them. They're not all Boney official, but they should give you a solid idea of what things look like:
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Thank you, I greatly appreciate your attempt to help!

However, I've now come to the conclusion that I must not be very good at reading maps, because I'm coming away with a feeling that I understand less than I did before I looked at the maps.

I suppose I'll just wait for other people to continue debating on Laurelorn's trade possibilities, and the various locations in the world will continue to exist in my mind as disconnected worlds that sometimes come into contact with each other through eldritch means beyond my comprehension.
 
K von Carstein said:
The forest and swamp are essential parts of Laurelorn's fortifications, so that's not on the cards.
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Well, there'd probably be ways to make such a road be arguably even more dangerous than braving the forest, by making it magical from the ground up, but speculation aside it really does put an end to any ideas of using a land route to ship large amounts of goods. Well, unless they teleport them to the border locations, but I don't think they are that magically capable.

That means a sea route and for the Empire that means either Nordland, Ostland, hope something happens in Marienburg. Or go all the way around the continent and use the new canal route when it is finished but that'd take forever, and most of the goods would stay in Barak Var.
 
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hey, dont know if this have already been asked or not but:
Dragomas can turn into a Eastern Dragon with the explanation that he learned it in Cathay....
is he really a human? or is he a dragon thats cosplaying as a human wizard? the ones from Cathay seem to do that
 
065tdsa said:
They can't take it though. That's the whole point, since either option inherently assumes that the current status quo stands when it comes to Middenland-Laurelorn relations, and that status quo is that Nordland cannot take the wealth and will never be able to.

Also, if Talabecland is able to regularly produce a credible candidate for emperor solely by dint of their position at the centre of the empire's river trade, and Marienburg is able to stay independent solely because of their trade position and the trade-related treaty with Ulthuan, then surely someone's figured out by now that their gold is in fact about as real as anyone else's.

When it comes to the investment on a Middenland trade route, there's also other questions to be asked, like the issue of building an entire new road in Laurelorn to connect to the Great Northern Road, either chopping through forest or draining the swamp. The route we've seen was traversable enough for Mathilde on a shadowsteed and with a guide, but not the best for carts.
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Them not being able to take it and them acknowledging that they're not able to take it are two completely different things. And giving them the ability to hurt Laurelorn by blocking a trade route after the Eonir economy has become dependent on it is an absolutely terrible idea. It's probably better for Laurelorn not to trade with the Empire than to have a critical trade route that their enemies can cut at will.

065tdsa said:
Well, there'd probably be ways to make such a road be arguably even more dangerous than braving the forest, by making it magical from the ground up, but speculation aside it really does put an end to any ideas of using a land route to ship large amounts of goods. Well, unless they teleport them to the border locations, but I don't think they are that magically capable.

That means a sea route and for the Empire that means either Nordland, Ostland, hope something happens in Marienburg. Or go all the way around the continent and use the new canal route when it is finished but that'd take forever, and most of the goods would stay in Barak Var.
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The obvious answer is that Laurelorn should cut canal routes through the marsh. Those channels can be hard enough to navigate that you need Eonir guides to successfully take a shallow bottomed vessel through, making it no less secure than it is already but capable of carrying a much larger volume of goods than a road. You could even possibly make them dependent on magical or technological propulsion that humans can't produce at large enough scale.
 
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alvus said:
hey, dont know if this have already been asked or not but:
Dragomas can turn into a Eastern Dragon with the explanation that he learned it in Cathay....
is he really a human? or is he a dragon thats cosplaying as a human wizard? the ones from Cathay seem to do that
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It's a possibility that has been talked about.
The Journeyman Dragomas did not return from Cathay... instead one of the Dragon Emperor's children returned.
 
pucflek said:
Hubert isn't really someone you would pick for teaching tbh.
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Sure, but he's *exactly* who you would pick if you wanted a seven year old boy to think "oh wow, wizards are COOL!" and that's my objective.

Alratan said:
The obvious answer is that Laurelorn should cut canal routes through the marsh
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This is very clever and I love it. Solves all the issues and should be doable with elven magic and land connections. Would mean that the wrecked tower at the southern capital might need some upgrades to really be a trading point, but I suspect that having a little space between the capital and the bazaar is desirable to the elves.
 
Glau said:
Sure, but he's *exactly* who you would pick if you wanted a seven year old boy to think "oh wow, wizards are COOL!" and that's my objective.



This is very clever and I love it. Solves all the issues and should be doable with elven magic and land connections. Would mean that the wrecked tower at the southern capital might need some upgrades to really be a trading point, but I suspect that having a little space between the capital and the bazaar is desirable to the elves.
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Unfortunately, I don't think Hubert can out-cool Mathilde. If Manndred is going to be swayed by that tactic, Mathilde has already swayed him.
 
French Cowboy said:
Unfortunately, I don't think Hubert can out-cool Mathilde. If Manndred is going to be swayed by that tactic, Mathilde has already swayed him.
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He kind of can though. As far as showy magic goes, Azyr has Ulgu beat. Invisibility and Teleportation are the spells I think a 7 yo would like the most out of Ulgu's repertoire... and they're the opposite of impressive looking.

On the other hand Lightning bolts and Flight?
 
French Cowboy said:
Unfortunately, I don't think Hubert can out-cool Mathilde. If Manndred is going to be swayed by that tactic, Mathilde has already swayed him.
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Yeah, I'm gonna disagree. He's not going to be much impressed by stories and the grey woman who comes in to talk to his mom every so often.

Someone flying in with a sword and wings of light, on the other hand...
 
Glau said:
Yeah, I'm gonna disagree. He's not going to be much impressed by stories and the grey woman who comes in to talk to his mom every so often.

Someone flying in with a sword and wings of light, on the other hand...
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The woman with the big wolf and the magic horse? Who is a knight of the Empire? And has a magic greatsword made by Dwarves?
We know he likes horses and knights, and Mathilde has the best horse and is a really cool knight. Consider also, that Mathilde has a lot more stories told about her being a badass than Hubert, and even if Manndred has only heard a tiny fraction of that, that's still going to be significant.
 
Glau said:
Yeah, I'm gonna disagree. He's not going to be much impressed by stories and the grey woman who comes in to talk to his mom every so often.

Someone flying in with a sword and wings of light, on the other hand...
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Yeah, by seven year old standards Hubert is definitely the coolest. That might change when he is older, but let's be honest I do not think Mandred has any reason to know what a K8P even is.
 
French Cowboy said:
The woman with the big wolf and the magic horse? Who is a knight of the Empire? And has a magic greatsword made by Dwarves?
We know he likes horses and knights, and Mathilde has the best horse and is a really cool knight.
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I don't think Manfred has ever seen her sword or her horse?

Alratan said:
I suspect that golden punch wizard Johann might also be able to impress a little boy, particularly given his charm
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Ok, this is truth. Hmmm.
 
More seriously, introducing the more diplomatic of Mathilde's motley crew of Magisters to Mandred in the relatively short run is probably quite a good idea. That way he can get exposed to some mostly positive wizardly role models, and ones who are much more than just the stereotype of their College. We have:
  • Egrimm van Horstmann, Lord Magister of the Light Order: Diplomacy: 19 - Charming when he wants to be, slightly less so when he indulges in pathos.
  • Johann, Magister of the Gold Order: Diplomacy: 22 - Johann is naturally likeable and gets along with most beings, and his:
    • five surprisingly friendly and gentle wolf-rats: Charyb, Deiamol, Tigris, Elthin, and Verdra.
  • Hubert Denzel, Journeyman of the Celestial Order: Diplomacy: 16 - He grew up being taught to navigate the relationships of the Empire's nobility.
Between them they can provide positive magic using male role models in three different ways. They all have decent to very good Diplomacy, and at least Johann's not shabby at Intrigue either.
 
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