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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Jyn Ryvia said:
I feel like this is overhyping.

A happy wedding can just be a happy wedding.

I don't think these two are going to be so influential that their wedding will go down in history like that.

They are royalty, so they will go down in history, but not 'start of a new golden age'

It will probably be the high kings call to take control of trade if anything.
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It's not about the wedding being the cause of a golden age, but rather a symptom of one.

If I were a historian writing a book, I'd be tempted to start with this wedding, exploring the circumstances that made it possible, and how it would be iconic of the age to come.

... Assuming that the next millennia or so is actually kind to the dwarves, that is.
 
Codex said:
This is assuming that Kazador is the primary factor in there. Let's not ignore the hard work Kazador's wife put in to have dozens of children. She's the one getting pregnant, not Kazador.
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... You got a source on that? :V

[X] Ranald

Think ill actually go with this seeing as an open wizard count seems as likely as staying hidden as a Ranaldite Emperor. Besides shouldnt Sigmar okay Mandred anyway, Ranald is on the good side...
 
Fehu said:
... You got a source on that? :V
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I think Kazador being trans and married to a trans woman would be amazing, but that is (unfortunately) not the case:
Boney said:
Kazador's wife is Karak Azul's High Priestess of Valaya. She didn't ask to be, she just got told she was part of the Priesthood after her fourth daughter and she kept being promoted, even though she's a blacksmith. She just shrugs and uses the position to have first dibs on the best drinks, since brewing is part of Valaya's umbrella.
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Codex said:
This is assuming that Kazador is the primary factor in there. Let's not ignore the hard work Kazador's wife put in to have dozens of children. She's the one getting pregnant, not Kazador.
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This wedding is just one data point.

Kazador has plenty of children, and enough daughters to see if the Kazador factor is real.
--
Hell, There's probably enough descendants that there will probably be a kaz-wedding in every major hold.
Although Thorgrim is not likely to be looking for a wife though... So no royal wedding in Karaz a Karak
 
Boney said:
They relayed that the issue was an Athel Loren warhost, which was defeated in some manner."

"Broadly correct. It was a Dryad warweald aligned with Coeddil."

He coughs into his flagon and only just manages to keep from propelling some
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Love that spittake.
Boney said:
He stares at you for a while, and sighs when he realizes you're serious.
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The I Have Seen Halpful Mathilde Face
Mathilde wasn't boasting here. She legit has no idea she shoukd brag.

Boney said:
He looks baffled. "How do you know Coeddil's name, but not- oh, did Laurelorn tell you about him?" You nod. "It makes sense that they would be a bit behind on things. Of its Treeman Elders, Athel Loren only has Durthu left, as Adanhu was killed and Coeddil corrupted by the endless battles against Morghur."
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Mathilde's knowledge base is very odd, with her eclectic reading, touching base with elder race isolationists, but relatively little in living lore that the Colleges have.
 
I was just thinking about the earlier discussion about EIC/Laurelorn trade again, and how if such trade were taxed by Nordland, that could be good for reducing the Nordland/Laurelorn tensions which could threaten the Waystone Project. A portion of Nordland's economy would suddenly be reliant on Nordland playing nice with the Eonir, and the Empire nobility that would be a big fan of high quality Elven goods would be terribly unamused if those Elven goods stopped coming and the best Nordland could reply was "sorry, i really just wanted that extra patch of forest".

I later brought up in that discussion that if Nordland's peasantry cutting down those trees is driven by some personal need like "putting food on the table", then no amount of punishment would stop that behavior, because punitive measures are thoroughly inadequate at deterring the desperate.

Thinking back on that now, I think I was falling into a mental trap of thinking we need to solve every problem in its totality by ourselves.

We are not capable of directly changing the living conditions of Nordland's peasantry without enormous overreach. However, the centers of power in Nordland are capable of that. And if the EIC trades with Laurelorn, then that would give Laurelorn a great deal more ability to push Nordland into preventing excessive foresting.

The EIC/Laurelorn trade won't solve everything by itself directly, or enable us to personally solve the source of the Nordland/Laurelorn tensions. But it will open a lot of doors and provide a lot of incentives for the people that do have the ability to improve the Nordland/Laurelorn tensions.
 
LadyLynn said:
I was just thinking about the earlier discussion about EIC/Laurelorn trade again, and how if such trade were taxed by Nordland, that could be good for reducing the Nordland/Laurelorn tensions which could threaten the Waystone Project. A portion of Nordland's economy would suddenly be reliant on Nordland playing nice with the Eonir, and the Empire nobility that would be a big fan of high quality Elven goods would be terribly unamused if those Elven goods stopped coming and the best Nordland could reply was "sorry, i really just wanted that extra patch of forest".

I later brought up in that discussion that if Nordland's peasantry cutting down those trees is driven by some personal need like "putting food on the table", then no amount of punishment would stop that behavior, because punitive measures are thoroughly inadequate at deterring the desperate.

Thinking back on that now, I think I was falling into a mental trap of thinking we need to solve every problem in its totality by ourselves.

We are not capable of directly changing the living conditions of Nordland's peasantry without enormous overreach. However, the centers of power in Nordland are capable of that. And if the EIC trades with Laurelorn, then that would give Laurelorn a great deal more ability to push Nordland into preventing excessive foresting.

The EIC/Laurelorn trade won't solve everything by itself directly, or enable us to personally solve the source of the Nordland/Laurelorn tensions. But it will open a lot of doors and provide a lot of incentives for the people that do have the ability to improve the Nordland/Laurelorn tensions.
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I think this discounts an important thing about this whole situation: the peasants of Norland have already been deterred, they are more afraid of Eonir arrows than they are of not having that wood and with the Middleland alliance the actual military of Norland dares not move to enforce that wood cutting. Any trade with the Eonir will I suspect not go though Norland because the elves neither like nor trust the Norlanders. Why would they OK those trade routes when there is both an allied power on their borders and the sea to pass those goods though.

Mathilde: I want to pass your trade through the lands of your age old enemies so that they get tax out of it
Elves *flatly*: Why?
Mathilde: Because all the wealth will make the peasants less likely to cut trees
Elves: And the Grand Baron all the more likely to think he has the wealth to fight us.
 
DragonParadox said:
I think this discounts an important thing about this whole situation: the peasants of Norland have already been deterred, they are more afraid of Eonir arrows than they are of not having that wood and with the Middleland alliance the actual military of Norland dares not move to enforce that wood cutting.
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We don't know if this is deterrence is something that will last or is a temporary thing. We don't know what Nordland is currently wanting to do, exactly.

What we do know is that while tensions haven't been escalating, they also haven't been deescalating. And my understanding is that the Eonir are still quite concerned about the possibility of war as a result of these tensions.

DragonParadox said:
Any trade with the Eonir will I suspect not go though Norland because the elves neither like nor trust the Norlanders. Why would they OK those trade routes when there is both an allied power on their borders and the sea to pass those goods though.

Mathilde: I want to pass your trade through the lands of your age old enemies so that they get tax out of it
Elves *flatly*: Why?
Mathilde: Because all the wealth will make the peasants less likely to cut trees
Elves: And the Grand Baron all the more likely to think he has the wealth to fight us.
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I'll admit to being terrible at geography, and that I do not have the ability to analyze Laurelorn's trade possibilities from that angle. But my impression from thread discussion was that the alternatives to Nordland when it comes to Laurelorn/Empire trade were unideal for various reasons.

EDIT: Also, you could criticize my argument without making fun of it through a strawman.
 
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LadyLynn said:
We don't know if this is deterrence is something that will last or is a temporary thing. We don't know what Nordland is currently wanting to do, exactly.

What we do know is that while tensions haven't been escalating, they also haven't been deescalating. And my understanding is that the Eonir are still quite concerned about the possibility of war as a result of these tensions.

I'll admit to being terrible at geography, and that I do not have the ability to analyze Laurelorn's trade possibilities from that angle. But my impression from thread discussion was that the alternatives to Nordland when it comes to Laurelorn/Empire trade were unideal for various reasons.

EDIT: Also, you could criticize my argument without making fun of it through a strawman.
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As of right now the peasants are deterred, that is not I think in question as trying to cut down significant amounts of wood and get them across the river without getting shot by the elves or torn apart by the fey is not viable. That is why they chose the river at their boundary.

When it comes to the concern about conflict with Norland, that is true but it cuts both ways, they worry about war with them so they would not wish to empower the Grand Baron. After all why would they trust that he would be appeased and not encouraged by this show of elven wealth?

The alternatives are Middleland, with which they are allied with so that makes them a natural gateway to Eonir goods and the Sea of Claws, which while yes nasty and full of raiders does open into the world ocean which would let them reach far and wide with no extra tax

Sorry if that came off as glib, I was just trying to put the thing in a personal context as something we would actually have to float to them
 
DragonParadox said:
As of right now the peasants are deterred, that is not I think in question as trying to cut down significant amounts of wood and get them across the river without getting shot by the elves or torn apart by the fey is not viable. That is why they chose the river at their boundary.

When it comes to the concern about conflict with Norland, that is true but it cuts both ways, they worry about war with them so they would not wish to empower the Grand Baron. After all why would they trust that he would be appeased and not encouraged by this show of elven wealth?

The alternatives are Middleland, with which they are allied with so that makes them a natural gateway to Eonir goods and the Sea of Claws, which while yes nasty and full of raiders does open into the world ocean which would let them reach far and wide with no extra tax

Sorry if that came off as glib, I was just trying to put the thing in a personal context as something we would actually have to float to them
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Fundamentally the issue with trade is that while wealth could certainly be invested in more armies to retake land, retaking land isn't actually immediately profitable, specially not if you also have to fight the army of Middenland as well. And that's before we consider that Nordland's new position would be that of a middleman, which means that if they cut the trade because they think taking their land will be more profitable they gain the enmity of the people on the other end of the trade route. It also divides Nordland internally, the eastern Nordland nobles are unlikely to see as much profit from a westwards expansion as they'll lose from the trade cutting off.

The Sea of Claws is patrolled by a fleet based out of Nordland so it isn't the safest, if Laurelorn started trading there currently I have no doubt a number of 'pirates' would suddenly make their homes there in addition to the normal dangers. It also has a few other problems when it comes to sea trade, the position just isn't the greatest. The landlocked Middenland certainly can't help there. The main trade route that Laurelorn could secure with Middenland's participation would be one that runs along the great north road, but that's a fair amount of road to secure and it is really not very peopled, there's swamps and some of the Drakwald there.
 
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Where can I find a good map so I can better imagine Laurelorn's potential trade routes? I'm somewhat dubious of using Google for it with how many bad things I've heard about official maps in this thread.
 
LadyLynn said:
Where can I find a good map so I can better imagine Laurelorn's potential trade routes? I'm somewhat dubious of using Google for it with how many bad things I've heard about official maps in this thread.
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I made a compendium of relevant maps a while ago. You're free to peruse them. They're not all Boney official, but they should give you a solid idea of what things look like:
Codex said:
I was sick and tired of having to constantly surf through dozens of sources to look at the metric ton of different maps as references in Warhammer, so I decided to compile them all in one place. Hope it benefits you guys as well to get some visualisation. A reminder that these maps are not officially approved unless Boney says so.

While I'm trying to post some of the more recent, updated and relevant maps, there's a bunch of stuff that changes with different iterations of the map and so many inconsistencies to sift through, it's a real headache. The Sylvania maps in particular shouldn't be taken at face value. That being said, there's tons of useful information if you know what to look for. Brace for a lot of Spoiler bars:

View: https://imgur.com/a/54SBJAi

The following are fanmade maps that Boney uses from a website called Winds of Chaos:
Click the following quote for Thread Canonical Maps made and approved by Boney:

I didn't know there was a 20 image limit to SV posts until I made this post.
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065tdsa said:
Fundamentally the issue with trade is that while wealth could certainly be invested in more armies to retake land, retaking land isn't actually immediately profitable, specially not if you also have to fight the army of Middenland as well. And that's be fore we consider that Nordland's new position would be that of a middleman, which means that if they cut the trade because they think taking their land will be more profitable they gain the enmity of the people on the other end of the trade route. It also divides Nordland internally, the eastern Nordland nobles are unlikely to see as much profit from a westwards expansion as they'll lose from the trade cutting off.

The Sea of Claws is patrolled by a fleet based out of Nordland so it isn't the safest, if Laurelorn started trading there currently I have no doubt a number of 'pirates' would suddenly make their homes there. It also has a few other problems when it comes to sea trade, the position just isn't the greatest. The landlocked Middenland certainly can't help there. The main trade route that Laurelorn could secure with Middenland's participation would be one that runs along the great north road, but that's a fair amount of road to secure and it is really not very peopled, there's swamps and a fair bit of the Drakwald there.
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Remember that the Empire is operating under an economic/moral model that doesn't see wealth gained from trade as legitimate, or, fundmentally real. Legitimate wealth is produced by resource extraction, or to a lesser degree by physical manufacture. To a feudal mindset, all trade like this does is advertise the Eonir/Laurelorn's wealth to the Nordlanders, showing what they could have if they take it. Trying to make the Nordland nobility middlemen on a trade route is a fundamental insult to them. They don't want to be filthy merchants, they want to be feudal magnates.

That's dangerous. Particularly as it would make Laurelorn's economy partially dependent on a Nordland that doesn't truly recognise the value of trade, so they could chose to cut it without recognising how much it would hurt them as well as the Eonir.

If the Eonir are going to trade with the Empire, it makes more sense for them to put the investment in to do so via Middenland, and encourage Middenheim's merchant prices to hire mercenaries to keep the route clear. Middenheim's merchants seem to be significantly more influential in Middenland than Nordland's are.
 
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[X] Wizard
[X] Ulric

I'm ultimately leaning wizard, but I'd still like Mathilde's thought process to touch on the idea of another diety.
 
065tdsa said:
Fundamentally the issue with trade is that while wealth could certainly be invested in more armies to retake land, retaking land isn't actually immediately profitable, specially not if you also have to fight the army of Middenland as well. And that's before we consider that Nordland's new position would be that of a middleman, which means that if they cut the trade because they think taking their land will be more profitable they gain the enmity of the people on the other end of the trade route. It also divides Nordland internally, the eastern Nordland nobles are unlikely to see as much profit from a westwards expansion as they'll lose from the trade cutting off.

The Sea of Claws is patrolled by a fleet based out of Nordland so it isn't the safest, if Laurelorn started trading there currently I have no doubt a number of 'pirates' would suddenly make their homes there in addition to the normal dangers. It also has a few other problems when it comes to sea trade, the position just isn't the greatest. The landlocked Middenland certainly can't help there. The main trade route that Laurelorn could secure with Middenland's participation would be one that runs along the great north road, but that's a fair amount of road to secure and it is really not very peopled, there's swamps and some of the Drakwald there.
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If I would have to bet who would win a limited naval war between elves with magical support and humans without (since I do not think the Colleges will be handing them any) my money is on the elves.

I also do not think elves will try to play that kind of internal politics in Norland because that is a lot of noble houses and interests to juggle and they do not have the skill or the people to do it. Even when they dealt with Norland it was always with the EC and with him alone, I do not think they will be changing that anytime soon
 
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