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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Honestly... if there is any way that the articles of magic will ever be amended... it will be if Electors get wind that a wizard EC will grant a free vote to the Emperor.

I mean, they will not get amended much, but I imagine that something like "one's duties as an EC take priority over those of a wizard, although researching dark magic is still a no-no" could be added.
 
storryeater said:
Honestly... if there is any way that the articles of magic will ever be amended... it will be if Electors get wind that a wizard EC will grant a free vote to the Emperor.

I mean, they will not get amended much, but I imagine that something like "one's duties as an EC take priority over those of a wizard, although researching dark magic is still a no-no" could be added.
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That might be a hat moment, there.

Mandred wearing the Wizard hat is of course obligated to obey the Emperor as stated by the Articles of Magic, but Mandred wearing the Elector-Count hat wouldn't have the same obligation.

Not exactly a foreign thing to Feudalism. You can be an independent ruler and a vassal to someone else simultaneously.
 
storryeater said:
Honestly... if there is any way that the articles of magic will ever be amended... it will be if Electors get wind that a wizard EC will grant a free vote to the Emperor.

I mean, they will not get amended much, but I imagine that something like "one's duties as an EC take priority over those of a wizard, although researching dark magic is still a no-no" could be added.
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I think a pretty strong argument could be made that the existing articles already preclude an Emperor ordering a hypothetical wizard Elector to vote in a certain way: the ideals and laws of the Empire come before the Emperor, and actions which "cause overt harm to the Electoral System" are an explicit example of a legitimate reason for a Magister to disobey an order from the Emperor.
 
[X] Wizard

Crippling him is not in contention at all. Between the other two, this one lowers the chances of the ultimate payoff of Mandred becoming Emperor, but doesn't jeopardize the still-substantial payoff of him becoming an Elector the way the Ranaldian option does. And it doesn't strictly rule out him becoming Emperor either, just makes it very unlikely.

Also, if he winds up going Grey we could literally have a future Elector as an apprentice.
 
By the way, I know that the wizard vote is dominating the discussion right now, but something I just realized:
Boney said:
Just about every Elector Count has sent at least a representative and a few are here in person, most of them traveling with an Elder from the local Imperial Dwarf population.
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How much do you want to bet that Boris or whatever representative he sent is accompanied by a Middenheim Imperial dwarf? You know, one of these guys:
Boney said:
Lend your influence to pressuring the expatriate Dwarves of Middenheim into revealing the secrets of their ancestral home.
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Codex said:
Yeah, but in both cases he was gambling himself. We have no reason to believe he would gamble Mandred against both Heidi and Mathilde's will. That implies a betrayal that I don't think he would ever attempt.

If Mandred grows up and he gambles himself, all the power to him. But I don't think Ranald is likely to gamble on someone who doesn't know the stakes. At least not if he's the child of someone he cares about.
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Do you think the god Ranald frowns upon those who gamble with their family's food money? Or upon those who facilitate said gambling?

I don't think Ranald would use Mandred as a chip against the explicit will of Heidi or Mathilde. I didn't even notice that that was what we've been discussing about. But if they leave it up to him then he definitely won't say no because Mandred is too young. Everyone's young compared to Ranald. Everyone's making uninformed and naive decisions from Ranald's point of view.

Still, I do trust Ranald to stack the deck in his favor. Which in this case means giving Mandred all the advantages he needs as soon as Mandred shows himself to be generally worthy of them and amenable to Ranald's general hopes and goals.

Which is why I am voting for Ranald over Wizard right now.
Jakobstj said:
Yes she is? Mathilde is very much aware of her dislike for Sigmar and Sigmarite institutions, she has reflected on it, and we even had that recent bit with Lord Magister Starke where she explicitly stated that she was aware her actions regarding the Watch on the matter were a mistake.
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Sorry. I guess I phrased it wrong. My point is that, as far as I understand it, Mathilde doesn't think she's wrong in her disdain for Sigmar. She doesn't recognize it as a purely irrational phobia or anything like that. She's not working in overcoming it as some kind of irrational bias. But yeah, saying she's unaware was just me being at a lack of words to explain what I mean.
IronFist said:
It's a loss, but it's not as visceral.

So he doesn't get to be emperor... instead he only gets to be the Grand Prince of Reikland. Oh no.
So going from a 9/10 instead of a 10/10 in terms of authority.

It's like clipping someone's wings so they can fit through a particular door. Sure, it fixes the "door" problem. But as a consequence they'll never be able to fly.
And then never telling them they had wings in the first place.

It's not a fair trade.

And it's not like there aren't suitable candidates for the throne.
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Being Emperor is not a mere "door" and the difference between Elector Count and Emperor is not as tiny as everyone seems to pretend. I'm pretty sure that you'll find ECs that would be willing to literally give an eye and an arm if it means that they get to be Emperor.

Losing magic powers and a sense with which to see the world which would have elevated one over 99% of the population is sad. Losing the potential and privilege to absolute power which one was supposed to have since birth isn't fun either. We are making a serious choice here. With serious consequences. None of them minor. So let's not act as if the drawbacks of one of them are negligible.
storryeater said:
Honestly... if there is any way that the articles of magic will ever be amended... it will be if Electors get wind that a wizard EC will grant a free vote to the Emperor.

I mean, they will not get amended much, but I imagine that something like "one's duties as an EC take priority over those of a wizard, although researching dark magic is still a no-no" could be added.
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How do you mean? A Wizard's first loyalty are to the ideals and laws of the Empire. The Elector Moot working as a check and balance to the Emperor is pretty much up there. Voting his own conscience in that specific situation might well be one of the most clear cut examples of sanctioned "disloyalty" to the person of the Emperor. It only becomes an issue if the Wizard EC were ti vote against the Emperor for his own personal gain when it wouldn't even benefit his own province (which by the ideals of the Empire he is duty-bound to advocate for and protect) or when he himself thinks it would harm the Empire as a whole. And what EC ever does that without plausible deniability and an excuse that holds up on paper?
 
[x] Wizard

You know, I think Mathilde has been reading a few too many smutty romance books if she thinks that everyone will think that the reason that the when visiting a foreign court the Empress will visit the Grey Lord Magister that has lived there for years is sex, rather than being briefed by the most senior local Imperial agent about the background and politics of the nation she's visiting, as she's at least implicitly representing the Empire here.

She's been the closest thing the Empire has had to an Ambassador to Karak Eight Peaks.
 
Rafin said:
Being Emperor is not a mere "door" and the difference between Elector Count and Emperor is not as tiny as everyone seems to pretend. I'm pretty sure that you'll find ECs that would be willing to literally give an eye and an arm if it means that they get to be Emperor.

Losing magic powers and a sense with which to see the world which would have elevated one over 99% of the population is sad. Losing the potential and privilege to absolute power which one was supposed to have since birth isn't fun either. We are making a serious choice here. With serious consequences. None of them minor. So let's not act as if the drawbacks of one of them are negligible.
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Why do we want that much Manfred to be emperor anyway? Would it make him happier? And there's 3 other very good candidates. And a wizard EC is still a giant step in the good direction.

Becoming a wizard won't make him loose his EC title, so loosing privileges isn't a problem. It is one with becoming a Ranaldite priest.
 
Rafin said:
Being Emperor is not a mere "door" and the difference between Elector Count and Emperor is not as tiny as everyone seems to pretend. I'm pretty sure that you'll find ECs that would be willing to literally give an eye and an arm if it means that they get to be Emperor.

Losing magic powers and a sense with which to see the world which would have elevated one over 99% of the population is sad. Losing the potential and privilege to absolute power which one was supposed to have since birth isn't fun either. We are making a serious choice here. With serious consequences. None of them minor. So let's not act as if the drawbacks of one of them are negligible.
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On one hand I see your point, but you have to ask... is being Emperor (or at the very least having the chance to become one) personally desirable as far as Mathilde's values are concerned? I mean we know she loves magic right, but does she think secular power is a net personal good? I would argue that it is not, the closest examples of what happens to those who wield it are Van Hall (dead) and Belegar (struggling with his personal compromises)

Of course one could ask what would Mandred want, what are his personal values of happiness, but we cannot get a meaningful answer to that. The kid is seven, he does not know what it is to be Emperor or a wizard, so we are left with Mathilde's judgement and in that light I think wizard works best.
 
Alratan said:
[x] Wizard

You know, I think Mathilde has been reading a few too many smutty romance books if she thinks that everyone will think that the reason that the when visiting a foreign court the Empress will visit the Grey Lord Magister that has lived there for years is sex, rather than being briefed by the most senior local Imperial agent about the background and politics of the nation she's visiting, as she's at least implicitly representing the Empire here.

She's been the closest thing the Empire has had to an Ambassador to Karak Eight Peaks.
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When it comes to bored nobles, if given the choice between practical gossip and juicy gossip, they'll choose juicy gossip every time. It also bears mentioning that Mathilde and Heidi somehow "hit it off" at some indetermined period of time back in Stirland and this woman who's never been to court suddenly jumped to personal confidant of the Empress herself and godmother of the Emperor's heir out of nowhere. This is a position that people would literally kill to get. And Mathilde has been having constant private meetings with Heidi for years now, meetings that are so unsubtle by this point that Heidi no longer even tries to hide them. Every time Mathilde comes in Heidi happily dismisses all the attendants. Heidi has dozens of courtiers, and they're all jealous of Mathilde's position. Why does she get to have this honored role in Heidi's personal life? Clearly it's because she's Heidi's lover.

It has nothing to do with being corrupted with smut novels. It's just a logical conclusion to make from a noble court considering the circumstances. If you swap Mathilde with literally any man they would make the exact same conclusion, and in this setting heteronormativity is not nearly as prevalent, so that's just what happens.
 
So any have thoughts on who we should talk to next? I am thinking Barak Var to find out how mad dog pass is going and their plans for Sarotosa. Also every elector count has a representative here or is here. Like weddings for rich people these is about networking as much as the couple.
 
Nurgle said:
So any have thoughts on who we should talk to next? I am thinking Barak Var to find out how mad dog pass is going and their plans for Sarotosa. Also every elector count has a representative here or is here. Like weddings for rich people these is about networking as much as the couple.
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We don't have an idea of who's here to start speculating and suggesting. We'll have to wait. If Roswita's here instead of just a representative for example, I would like to talk to her.
 
Codex said:
When it comes to bored nobles, if given the choice between practical gossip and juicy gossip, they'll choose juicy gossip every time. It also bears mentioning that Mathilde and Heidi somehow "hit it off" at some indetermined period of time back in Stirland and this woman who's never been to court suddenly jumped to personal confidant of the Empress herself and godmother of the Emperor's heir out of nowhere. This is a position that people would literally kill to get. And Mathilde has been having constant private meetings with Heidi for years now, meetings that are so unsubtle by this point that Heidi no longer even tries to hide them. Every time Mathilde comes in Heidi happily dismisses all the attendants. Heidi has dozens of courtiers, and they're all jealous of Mathilde's position. Why does she get to have this honored role in Heidi's personal life? Clearly it's because she's Heidi's lover.

It has nothing to do with being corrupted with smut novels. It's just a logical conclusion to make from a noble court considering the circumstances. If you swap Mathilde with literally any man they would make the exact same conclusion, and in this setting heteronormativity is not nearly as prevalent, so that's just what happens.
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'Bored nobles', who live on a deathworld and where diplomatic relations and statecraft are literally matters of life and death. They'll pick practical gossip nearly every time because focusing on juicy gossip means that it'll be death, while practical gossip means it's more likely to be life.

Amongst their other duties, Grey Wizards literally serve as a an informal part of the Empire's diplomatic service. The Emperor has regular meetings with the Grand Theogonist, with the Supreme Patriarch, with the Reiksmarshall, and with countless others. No one is going to bat an eye about that. They won't bat an eye when he has private meetings either, because there are many things that need privacy to discuss.

Similarly, the Empress meeting with very senior imperial officials, which Mathilde is, should be absolutely standard. It's both of their jobs, and everyone will know that. A Grey Lady Magister meeting the Empress is a signal that something important yet clandestine is happening, and that they should pay attention.
 
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Alliterate said:
So should we persuade Luitpold (via Heidi) to put his weight behind giving the Colleges an Electoral Vote before, or after it emerges that his son is a Wizard? :)

Hah, yeah, pretty good description all round.
Then it was also turned back around into a quite inventive role-playing game about a decade ago. Neat mechanics around e.g. the flashback trick reveals in the show, and ways to get around huge over-planning that similar heist genre games like Cyberpunk/Shadowrun could be prone to.
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Flashback system sounds similar to what "Blades in the dark" does.
 
Codex said:
We don't have an idea of who's here to start speculating and suggesting. We'll have to wait. If Roswita's here instead of just a representative for example, I would like to talk to her.
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I would rather talk to someone new so we can make more contacts for the waystone project , or find out what is going on in the world that Boney has hinted at.
 
Nurgle said:
So any have thoughts on who we should talk to next? I am thinking Barak Var to find out how mad dog pass is going and their plans for Sarotosa. Also every elector count has a representative here or is here. Like weddings for rich people these is about networking as much as the couple.
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That is assuming that we're going to get an additional socializing vote.
 
Renald will never ask you not to give to him. Its on you to know when to decide not to. Sometimes you walk away from the table.
[X] Wizard
And, as someone who has a secret Daughter.....I think Ranald would understand prioritizing the safety of a child.
Boney said:
Or it could be you. There's only two children you've been involved in the lives of, and now both of them have turned out to have the potential to be Wizards. What are the odds that that's sheer coincidence?
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Does this have precedent, and how would that even work? Wizardry isn't a trait you can spread to others is it?
 
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CornyBones said:
Does this have precedent, and how would that even work? Wizardry isn't a trait you can spread to others is it?
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It's known that the children of magical people are more likely to be magical. Maybe Mathilde was hypothesising that proximity to her had some sort of altering effect on still developing children's soul that made them more likely to have magic. There isn't exactly a lot of research on this subject. Kind of difficult to do so.
 
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