Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Shard]

Brings a new meaning to it when you say "This spell creates a new personal boundary between a person's head and their torso."

 

[The Lone badger]

We also need a name for it. Mathilde's Malevolent Mandau?

 

[Chopak]

How about some cool name this time. Like Mathilde's Magic Mayhem. Or Weber's Wunderwaffe. Or Lady Magister's Goodbye Kiss.

 

[Broccoliccoli]

The way I see it spells are like engineering, so in this aspect a shadow dagger is like a gun, with all the dangers and the complexities involved in that. By contrast a shadow chisel is above all other things a tool and a simple one, so maybe some kind if sprinkler that is rooted in place and sprays in a wide arc. Then someone comes along and says 'but what if we changed the angle of the gun to shoot like the sprinkler does' and hey do... that is a mortar. For all the inspiration it got from the sprinkler the mortar is still a lo more like a gun because it kept the basic function. same with a handheld shadow dagger, at its base it is an armor piercing weapon that just happens to be deployed in another way, it is not a new kind of chisel.

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We aren't attached to the dagger shape though. A chisel that ignores armour would also be a total success. In a way we are just trying to make a Cantrip act more Ulgooey by having it only be selectively physical. On a good roll a complexity downgrade would be totally justifiable.

 

[Amantalado]

So not so much making a 'sword', symbolically speaking, as making a line that divides things and then swinging it like a sword?

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Call it Mathilde's Divided Loyalties.

 

[ReImagined]

Mathilde's Cutting Wit

Also, since it's mentioned, but not directly in the Approved Spells threadmark:

Shadow Knives is a spell that doesn't mesh well with Ulgu, name notwithstanding. Each Wind has areas in which it dominates and areas in which it can barely touch, and unfortunately, Ulgu is not the best fit for direct assault. But the world being what it was, that hadn't stopped a lot of past and present Grey Wizards from trying anyway, and one of the very few usable results was Shadow Knives, tapping into the cultural association of stealth with short blades to find an edge case where Ulgu can be convinced to produce a projectile weapon. It was still tricky enough that it took a Grey Magister to do what almost any Bright Apprentice could manage, but it was easily scalable and came with the side-benefit of ignoring magically-inert armour in favour of embedding itself in living flesh or unliving magical construct. Your familiarity with blades makes the visualizations easy, but that the blades you're familiar with are significantly longer means it takes some time and practice to produce a trio of normal-sized daggers instead of what appears to be a stretched-out poniard. But you're finally able to consider the spell properly learned just as you reach the time period you were told to set aside.

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Mathilde made shadow 'super-long-daggers-and-definitely-not-swords' before she made shadow knives. Teclisian Magic is all about a wizard's personal understanding of their wind, and if anybody's going to finally justify that Sword of Ulgu story, the LM who built her career relying on swordsmanship is probably the one to do it.

 

[LadyLynn]

One other road I can see to spreading the Branalhune fighting style is through enchantment. Instead of trying to recreate a mini-Branalhune wholesale, try and come up with a way to replicate the utility of the Rune of the Unknown through enchantment.

This'd have the advantage of being more useful to us personally, the sword and fighting style would be usable by non-Grey Wizards and lower-tier Grey Wizards(even if a higher tier Grey Wizard would probably have to do the actual enchanting), and it means it could be used on anything, not just swords. Maybe someone wants a disappearing axe or a hammer or something.

The most obvious spell that comes to mind for replicating the utility of Rune of the Unknown is Substance of Shadow, but the "item must fall within a shadow" condition represents a significant obstacle for reliability. We'd have to find workarounds for that, or come up with some other route to replicating the utility of the Rune of the Unknown.

Maybe something with the alternate realm/dimension/whatever stuff that has been coming up a lot lately? I haven't really got a good grasp on that, but maybe we could do something with that.

Mathilde's Cutting Wit

Also, since it's mentioned, but not directly in the Approved Spells threadmark:

Mathilde made shadow 'super-long-daggers-and-definitely-not-swords' before she made shadow knives. Teclisian Magic is all about a wizard's personal understanding of their wind, and if anybody's going to finally justify that Sword of Ulgu story, the LM who built her career relying on swordsmanship is probably the one to do it.

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This is also a very good point in favor of Shadow Swords, I think.

 

[DragonParadox]

At this point we've gone on quite a tangent from what I said was a fairly minor point and I feel like we're mostly splitting hairs on if the Hedgewise were 'really' precusors or just, what, 'cultural but not magical' precusors? On Kurtis learning Hedge magic:

On Hedge magic not being castable by, say, Mathilde: yeah, probably. Is that what we were talking about this entire time? You originally said:

But a bunch of Hedgewise did join up when the College was founded, and whatever non-Teclisian lore they had (and surely you agree that Hedge magic isn't just Teclisian magic) either didn't survive to modern age or is hidden well enough that Mathilde isn't aware of that. This isn't my opinion or anything, that's stuff that appeared in the quest and in Boney's comments on the Grey College and the Hedgewise, so the statement you made just seemed wrong to me. If you actually meant that they joined the College but didn't "really" join because Ulgu magic is incompatible with Hedge magic then...I don't know? I'm not sure what that even means?

On the druids you may be right, I admit I'm not well versed in that lore. Certainly it seems like Paranoth's position is that the Druids were just Ghyran users who had weird religious beliefs, let's hope that he's wrong.

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I am saying that the fact that we do not already have any hint of Hedgewise Waysotone magic, or indeed any hint of Hedgecraft in the Grey Order while we are a lady magister is a hint that there may be very little lore there to find. It may well be that Hedgewise are able to learn grey magic but not the reverse, or it may simply be that as others have said all they knew has been explained away and integrated into the Teclisian worldview... in which case it is unlkely they have a lot of lore we would want for the project.

Of course it should be kept in mind that this is a 'unknown unknown' situation and you could be right there might be super secret religious lore that the founders were not able or willing to share with the secular colleges, but at least to me it seems more likely that there simply is not very much useful lore at all. I am still willing to put a AP down on the action, but I do not have high hopes for it, nor do I think it is urgent.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Mathilde's Final Point

Mathilde's last retort.

 

[LadyLynn]

I am saying that the fact that we do not already have any hint of Hedgewise Waysotone magic, or indeed any hint of Hedgecraft in the Grey Order while we are a lady magister is a hint that there may be very little lore there to find. It may well be that Hedgewise are able to learn grey magic but not the reverse, or it may simply be that as others have said all they knew has been explained away and integrated into the Teclisian worldview... in which case it is unlkely they have a lot of lore we would want for the project.

Of course it should be kept in mind that this is a 'unknown unknown' situation and you could be right there might be super secret religious lore that the founders were not able or willing to share with the secular colleges, but at least to me it seems more likely that there simply is not very much useful lore at all. I am still willing to put a AP down on the action, but I do not have high hopes for it, nor do I think it is urgent.

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I'm not sure why you're placing so much focus on Hedgewise magic having to be usable by Ulgu Wizards. Its not as if we can use the magic of the Ice or Hag Witches or of the Light or Jade orders either, and we still wanted them.

We're not just looking for specific secrets that we can apply to directly increase our own ability, we're looking to broaden our perspective and see Waystones from a variety of angles, so that with our collective viewpoints we can put together something closer to the full picture.

 

[Mopman43]

I think one of the other objectives that could apply under 'stabilizing relations between the empire and Laurelorn' is that it could ease tensions between Marienburg and the empire over the Black Waters Project, hopefully heading off another fight with Ulthuan and its White Tower getting involved.

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I'm confused, how?

If anything it seems like it might make things worse because the Empire now has a potential source of Elven goods, breaking Marienburg's monopoly.

 

[ReImagined]

I'm confused, how?

If anything it seems like it might make things worse because the Empire now has a potential source of Elven goods, breaking Marienburg's monopoly.

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Laurelorn is bordered by Nordland to the east, Middenland to the south, and the Wasteland to the west. Nordland's where the border disputes are, and to reach Middenland you have to cross a swamp. The natural remaining entry point for goods is through Marienburg.

 

[Glau]

So, I think a lot of this for shadow swords for me boils down to "why hasn't this happened before now?"

We know from Boney's text when we first learned shadow knives that ulgu wizards have been *trying* to create direct damage spells for a while, as benefits an order of wizards founded for war, but weren't able to make it work.

So has anything changed?

The ancient myth about Ulgu being a sword for one. The large plane that cuts and separates. The part where a dagger is just a small sword. The relationship between Ulgu and the Sword of Gazul, with which he (is conceptualized to have) separated the Glittering Realm from the Warp, reinforced by the creator of this spell we are trying to create when she used the Ulgu-Gazul connection to send half a million souls into the Aethyr (the realm of concepts and magic).

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Ulgu-Gazul connection is the thing we built and speculation due to thematic similarities.

Gazul *burned* the glittering realm from the wrap, per quest text, not cut it. Gazul's sword is fire without light, which does not read as ulgu to me.

Ancient myth is a historical association, larger dagger (which was a stretch to begin with, as a reminder) is a physical one, and a dagger *is* conceptually a different thing than a sword. Different users, purposes, history. Neither history nor physical similarities to an edge case is cardinal or mystical.

Again, if it were that easy, it would have been done already.

I also want to add that cutting something is always really about boundaries. Cutting is not just abstractly "damaging things", which wouldnt be within Ulgu, but cutting is severing the connections between matter. Cutting through the boundaries.

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This is true, and this is the association that would work, I think.

But most examples we have of this requires battle-magic levels of ulgu to create this edge? It seems like a side effect of ulgu- creeping into the boundaries between things and then violently inflating the ulgu there- than a cardinal or mystical assocation with cutting.


So my argument basically boils down to "If ulgu resonates with swords, why isn't shadow sword already a simple spell?"

 

[Redshirt Army]

So my argument basically boils down to "If ulgu resonates with swords, why isn't shadow sword already a simple spell?"

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When was the last time a Grey Lord Magister with a penchant for creating spells was also a Master Swordsman?

The colleges haven't been around for that long, it's entirely plausible that Mathilde is simply the first time someone with the appropriate traits was around to give it a crack.

 

[Amantalado]

I'm confused, how?

If anything it seems like it might make things worse because the Empire now has a potential source of Elven goods, breaking Marienburg's monopoly.

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I vaguely recall that Finubar was trying to reach out to Laurelorn, for what capacity was pretty ambiguous, but the idea was that it put Ulthuan in a tricky spot if Marienburg escalated while the Empire and its Colleges were working together with Laurelorn on something.

Marienburg doesn't like any of this, but it has less of a chance to force/escalate the issue with the uncertainty about Ulthuan and Laurelorn.

 

[Boney]

That reminds me of something I wanted to ask for a while now.
@Boney
Have any of the other colleges codified new spells over the course of the quest? It feels odd given how much Mathilde has codified so far, and what she has the potential to codify down the line.

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Simulating the R&D output of five thousand Wizards would be a full-time job. It can be assumed that there's a constant trickle of niche cantrips and oddities being discovered and published, but spells useful and accessible enough to be adopted into the core spell list are much rarer.

Wait, "long-extinct"? Isn't there one last grove of existing wutroth in Karak norn?

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I haven't encountered anything about this before, and the only relevant result I can find for it on Google is that it's the case in Twin Holds quest.

Ah. I still don't understand. Sure there's a dead branch in Laurelorn there, but there's also a living branch from Middenheim to Salzenmund, and Salzenmund's closest woodland is Laurelorn's Ward of Frost. That still looks like an active branch to me?

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Salzenmund is on the eastern edge of Laurelorn and the worldroot branch reaches it from the southeast, passing through the Forest of Shadows instead of Laurelorn.

So my argument basically boils down to "If ulgu resonates with swords, why isn't shadow sword already a simple spell?"

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Probably because there's an already-existing spell called 'buying a sword'. The material components are ten gold crowns and it can be performed at any blacksmith on the continent.

 

[Aule]

Speaking of swords and liminal realms, would it be the case that we always carry a very small and inconspicuous one with us? Branulhune probably has to be somewhere when it's dismissed, after all.

 

[Angelform]

Specifically the elves almost certainly want to increase the power they can draw for whatever they do with it.

If Thorek finds out that the network can be used to power the works of the ancestors he will likely want the same.

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Something to keep in mind: Before the creation of the Great Vortex the Elves, Dwarves and Lizardmen were spamming cataclysm grade spells like cantrips and still weren't using all the available magic.
While being able to draw power out of the Waystone network is a very useful thing, we very much do NOT want to remove or reduce its primary function of carrying magic from the edge of the Chaos Wastes to the Great Vortex.

There is also the fact that using magic in large quantities is not without secondary consequences. Example: Using the Sword of Gazul allowed soil to boil like water for hours afterwards.

We cannot just keep plugging extension cords into the power outlet.

 

[Andres]

When was the last time a Grey Lord Magister with a penchant for creating spells was also a Master Swordsman?

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The Colleges are primarily a military organisation and same goes for the Greys. Master swordsmanship would be relatively common. Penchant for creating spells is rare but stretch it out over a few hundred years and you'll get a few who fit the criteria.

I think the real reason a shadow sword spell doesn't exist is because the ability to ignore armour simply isn't that big enough of an advantage to be worth it.

 

[LilyWitch]

The Colleges are primarily a military organisation and same goes for the Greys. Master swordsmanship would be relatively common. Penchant for creating spells is rare but stretch it out over a few hundred years and you'll get a few who fit the criteria.

I think the real reason a shadow sword spell doesn't exist is because the ability to ignore armour simply isn't that big enough of an advantage to be worth it.

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Not really. We have lots of example wizards on the tabletop and in the fiction and its very consistant that most people don't, can't even, master both skills. That plus magics role on the battlefield being closer to artillary then anything else means that being as good with a sword as Mathilde is very rare.

Edit: and for reference while Mathilde is very good at swordsmanship she is not in fact a Master with a capital M.

 

[Dragonofelder]

the ability to ignore armour simply isn't that big enough of an advantage to be worth it

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Uh, might just be me, but I'm pretty sure that is in fact a big advantage

 

[pucflek]

Uh, might just be me, but I'm pretty sure that is in fact a big advantage

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The only time it would be relevant is when you fight something armored. Considering the fact that the list of creatures where that would be a significant benefit means they would be heavily armored, you are either fighting a black ork or chaos warrior. If you are fighting those in meele and you are a wizard... well. Most of them would go splat in that case, armor piercing sword or no

 

[French Cowboy]

Pretty useful against bretonnians and dwarfs too.

which has the same problem as fighting black orcs huh.

 

[ReImagined]

Edit: and for reference while Mathilde is very good at swordsmanship she is not in fact a Master with a capital M.

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Err strictly speaking, we do have that on the character sheet.

Master Swordswoman: You have blended sword techniques from the Empire and the Karaz Ankor into a style entirely your own, and tested it - and yourself - in battle. +2 Martial, +10 martial when fighting against enraged or unthinking opponents, or when holding a physical choke-point such as a doorway or tunnel.

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[K von Carstein]

While being able to draw power out of the Waystone network is a very useful thing, we very much do NOT want to remove or reduce its primary function of carrying magic from the edge of the Chaos Wastes to the Great Vortex.

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The dwarfs were using enough Winds to fuel several major works of their gods at the same time, and the world was just fine. Furthermore, at this very moment a good chunk of the magic drained by the network is used to prevent Ulthuan from sinking.

Imo, as long as that magic is used for something it isn't really a risk for the world. Or it simply means that the amount of Winds needed for that represent only a drop in the bucket compared to what is send back to the Warp.

Either way, I don't think the Eonir learning to divert part of the drained Winds for their use is a problem.

There is also the fact that using magic in large quantities is not without secondary consequences. Example: Using the Sword of Gazul allowed soil to boil like water for hours afterwards.

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The Eonir were practicing magic before humans learned to write, I think they know what they're doing.

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The only time it would be relevant is when you fight something armored. Considering the fact that the list of creatures where that would be a significant benefit means they would be heavily armored, you are either fighting a black ork or chaos warrior. If you are fighting those in meele and you are a wizard... well. Most of them would go splat in that case, armor piercing sword or no

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It could be useful when ambushing them. Teleport in, decapitation, teleport out. When beheading with a sword, you'll be more sure your target is dead, and there's less risk of her being healed.

That said, I'm against trying to make a shadow sword. We already have something better for ourselves, and if I really wanted to codify a spell I'd try RoW.