K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
The Grey College contribution is Mathilde, and her ability to get dwarfs, elves, forest spirits and many other magical traditions working together. I think it's good enough.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Utrecht
Another thing to take into account: battle magic Masteries are a thing.
It's possible that a battle wizard who learns the spell and uses it tactically (eg: get artillery over difficult terrain, or a critical cavalry charge) might develop a mastery that allows them to use it strategically (i.e like Mathilde)
It's possible that a battle wizard who learns the spell and uses it tactically (eg: get artillery over difficult terrain, or a critical cavalry charge) might develop a mastery that allows them to use it strategically (i.e like Mathilde)
- Location
- United States
That is not quite what I meant, If some of the first grey wizards were indeed hedgewise then they would have known hedge magic, and yet we see no trace of it in the modern practice of the Grey Order. We do not see liminal realm use in the Order beside the following:
- Pit of Shades (Elf spell)
- Grey College (Made by elf)
- March of the Damned (can be used by wizards of any college)
Has been asked before. They have not and likely they will not going forward, simulating that would be too much to handle from the GM's side
Last edited:
The text of the quest outright says that Hedgewise were among the founders of the Grey College:
See also those WoGs from Boney on the precursors of the Grey Order:
I mean yes, my point was that they are precursors culturally, but the lack of any trace of their magic in our lore would indicate a magical compatibility. The other option is that they were magically compatible, but a bitter cabal of traditionalists decided to take those magics to their grave rather than sharing them. It does not seem reasonable that there would be that much loss of lore for purely political reasons
Regarding magical compatibility we have Kurtis, who practiced Hedgecraft when young and is now a Grey Wizard. Sample size of one, admittedly, but still. On why someone might decide not to share their secrets, no Hedgefolk group is secular and it might just be that they didn't disclose their greatest secrets for religious reasons.
Though I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing. Are you just saying that Hedgewise isn't literally Ulgu magic? That's obviously correct, but I'm also pretty sure that druid traditions aren't just Ghyran magic, doesn't mean that druidic magical traditions aren't the precusor traditions of the Jade Order.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Arguably also Penumbral Pendulum, which uses the infinitely thin barrier between realms to cut people.
We do not know that Kurtis practices Hedgecraft or indeed has ever done so. His parents were killed and he was taken in as a child, now he might have learned it later and he certainly has some ideological loyalty to them as well as the order, but that is hardly proof that magical lore translates unless and until we see him cast something that looks like hedge magic. I am saying that a Grey Magister attempting to use the lore of Hedgecraft may well be in the same position as one who is trying to use Hag Magic, that is to say 'your soul will curdle and you die or worse'
As for the Druids as far as we know they were Ghayn users, they worshiped the Green wind, but they also used it, we see this in the Druids for whom we have spell lists in canon, those of Albion.
At this point we've gone on quite a tangent from what I said was a fairly minor point and I feel like we're mostly splitting hairs on if the Hedgewise were 'really' precusors or just, what, 'cultural but not magical' precusors? On Kurtis learning Hedge magic:
On Hedge magic not being castable by, say, Mathilde: yeah, probably. Is that what we were talking about this entire time? You originally said:
But a bunch of Hedgewise did join up when the College was founded, and whatever non-Teclisian lore they had (and surely you agree that Hedge magic isn't just Teclisian magic) either didn't survive to modern age or is hidden well enough that Mathilde isn't aware of that. This isn't my opinion or anything, that's stuff that appeared in the quest and in Boney's comments on the Grey College and the Hedgewise, so the statement you made just seemed wrong to me. If you actually meant that they joined the College but didn't "really" join because Ulgu magic is incompatible with Hedge magic then...I don't know? I'm not sure what that even means?
On the druids you may be right, I admit I'm not well versed in that lore. Certainly it seems like Paranoth's position is that the Druids were just Ghyran users who had weird religious beliefs, let's hope that he's wrong.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
More likely, the non-Teclisean lore was integrated somehow. It's likely that whatever lore they had was simply explained into the Teclisean paradigm, and simply no longer exists as a separate thing within the College. It almost certainly isn't hidden, and it definitely isn't hidden by the College itself. Mathilde's a Lady Magister, there'd be no point.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Edit: My response got deleted somehow. It boils down to me not putting much trust in the Ambers having anything equivalent to the Jades or Lights and that they likely just have the highest concentration of Wizards who know where all the Waystones are and have experience dealing with their maintenance and rescue within the paradigm of Teclis and the Colleges.
I am not against recruiting them. I am also not for it. If a plan has everything else I want I'll vote for it regardless of Amber inclusion.
I was thinking less of a sparring blade and more of a Branulhune light that allows a fighter to actually apply Branarhune techniques practically and lethally, whether they are waiting to inherit our sword eventually or otherwise.
You're right that there's things a summoned Shadow Dagger style greatsword could not do that a Greatsword with Substance of Shadows could (parry and have weight). But the inverse is also true. Your suggestion can't work in light and daytime environments, can't deal seriously disproportional damage and if you materialize it as it swings through someone's body, which you have to to hurt them (especially through armor) then your blade is stuck inside of the target if you're lucky or has scary explosive effects if you're unlucky.
A greatsword (especially if weightless and summonable) has a serious advantage over a dagger. Range and reach. It's like a lightsaber. You can't kill someone a meter away and continue swinging towards the next target with a Shadow Dagger. You can't bisect someone with a torso the size of a tree trunk with a Shadow Dagger. You can't fight in an active battle like Mathilde would with a Shadow Dagger.
The ancient myth about Ulgu being a sword for one. The large plane that cuts and separates. The part where a dagger is just a small sword. The relationship between Ulgu and the Sword of Gazul, with which he (is conceptualized to have) separated the Glittering Realm from the Warp, reinforced by the creator of this spell we are trying to create when she used the Ulgu-Gazul connection to send half a million souls into the Aethyr (the realm of concepts and magic).
You want me to come up with more? Because I'm sure I already have exceeded the amount of connective concepts used to make a whole horse that rides as fast as the dusk/dawn or looking as scary as the face of Death or choking them with "shadow" tendrils.
This on the other hand is a fair argument IMO. I'm not married to codifying this (or any) spell right this turn.
Maybe the answer is much simpler. Maybe Ulgu Arcane Marks prevent the use of most or all useful Hedge Magic. So the first recruits could cast both, until they couldn't. And then they gradually stopped teaching Hedge Magic to new recruits because what's the point when getting at least one Arcane Mark is considered very normal for anyone who makes Magister.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- They
Wait, "long-extinct"? Isn't there one last grove of existing wutroth in Karak norn?
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Canon at least is that he was taught Hedge Magic by other Hedgewise.
He wasn't taken to join the Colleges until he was a teenager that already knew Hedge Magic that tried to curse a shopkeeper (which he knew he was doing in front of a Grey Wizard and his plan was to get taken)
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Its not extinct, but so rare it might as well be.
So we have a lot of different groups and individuals on the waystone project, and I'm trying to work out what each one's personal objectives are.
The following is what I think might be the objectives of each group. I could be wrong, I could have overlooked something.
The Colleges of Magic:
-stabilise and secure the waystone network
-obtain magical secrets from the elves that Teclis didn't pass on to them
-Grey Collage-stabilise relations between the Empire and Laurelorn
-Light Collage-generate prestige to solidify Mira's/Alric's position as head of the Order
-Jade Collage-legitimise the druidic cult and worship of the Earth Mother
Laurelorn:
-stabilise and secure the waystone network
-stabilise relations between the Empire and Laurelorn
-protect and legitimise their landclaims against Nordland
-legitimise the faction that seeks outside contact with the world
-obtain magical secrets from the humans and dwarves
Karak Azul & Eight Peaks:
-unearth magical secrets of the Ancestors
-develop much needed trade contacts with the outside world
-reform the Runesmiths Guild/Cult of Thungni
-strengthen existing alliances with the human realms
-obtain resources and weapons for the Mt Silverspear retaking
Kislev:
-stabilise and secure the waystone network
-obtain magical secrets from the elves
-cleanse praag and the troll country
-strengthen existing alliances with the Empire and Karaz Ankor, develop new alliances with the Eonir
-Ice Maiden-ambitious, desire to prove herself
-Hag Witch-???
Possible objectives for factions that have not been recruited:
Damsels:
-Protect Bretonnia
-Develop friendly relationships with non-hostile forest elf polity
-Destruction of the Chaos Orcs
Hedgewise:
-Protection from persecution
-Protection from Beastmen
Ambers:
-end beastman dominance of Empire forests
Cult of Taal:
-obey Taal's will (???)
-spread the faith of Taal into Middenland and Nordland
-protection of their sacred places (many of which appear to be waystones and waystone nexuses)
House Tindomiel:
-establish contacts with the outside world
-gain prestige and power over the other houses
The following is what I think might be the objectives of each group. I could be wrong, I could have overlooked something.
The Colleges of Magic:
-stabilise and secure the waystone network
-obtain magical secrets from the elves that Teclis didn't pass on to them
-Grey Collage-stabilise relations between the Empire and Laurelorn
-Light Collage-generate prestige to solidify Mira's/Alric's position as head of the Order
-Jade Collage-legitimise the druidic cult and worship of the Earth Mother
Laurelorn:
-stabilise and secure the waystone network
-stabilise relations between the Empire and Laurelorn
-protect and legitimise their landclaims against Nordland
-legitimise the faction that seeks outside contact with the world
-obtain magical secrets from the humans and dwarves
Karak Azul & Eight Peaks:
-unearth magical secrets of the Ancestors
-develop much needed trade contacts with the outside world
-reform the Runesmiths Guild/Cult of Thungni
-strengthen existing alliances with the human realms
-obtain resources and weapons for the Mt Silverspear retaking
Kislev:
-stabilise and secure the waystone network
-obtain magical secrets from the elves
-cleanse praag and the troll country
-strengthen existing alliances with the Empire and Karaz Ankor, develop new alliances with the Eonir
-Ice Maiden-ambitious, desire to prove herself
-Hag Witch-???
Possible objectives for factions that have not been recruited:
Damsels:
-Protect Bretonnia
-Develop friendly relationships with non-hostile forest elf polity
-Destruction of the Chaos Orcs
Hedgewise:
-Protection from persecution
-Protection from Beastmen
Ambers:
-end beastman dominance of Empire forests
Cult of Taal:
-obey Taal's will (???)
-spread the faith of Taal into Middenland and Nordland
-protection of their sacred places (many of which appear to be waystones and waystone nexuses)
House Tindomiel:
-establish contacts with the outside world
-gain prestige and power over the other houses
- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I am really into the idea of trying to invent Shadow Swords and letting the Grey College do our cool sword style. Agreed that its better saved for after we've actually got our fighting style down, though.
Because of that, I'm not as into trying to codify Shadow Daggers unless:
1: it could make the invention/codification of shadow swords easier, moreso than codifying another spell would
2: shadow daggers and shadow swords would be sufficiently distinct in niche that shadow daggers wouldn't just be largely passed over if we do manage to create shadow swords
Granted, I'm not super interested in the Shadow Daggers in the first place, so its not as if the still purely theoretical Shadow Swords are the sole reason I don't care to codify Shadow Daggers.
Because of that, I'm not as into trying to codify Shadow Daggers unless:
1: it could make the invention/codification of shadow swords easier, moreso than codifying another spell would
2: shadow daggers and shadow swords would be sufficiently distinct in niche that shadow daggers wouldn't just be largely passed over if we do manage to create shadow swords
Granted, I'm not super interested in the Shadow Daggers in the first place, so its not as if the still purely theoretical Shadow Swords are the sole reason I don't care to codify Shadow Daggers.
- Location
- Denial
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Specifically the elves almost certainly want to increase the power they can draw for whatever they do with it.
If Thorek finds out that the network can be used to power the works of the ancestors he will likely want the same.
Lights and Jades probably want to be able to better draw on active waystones to do stuff.
- Location
- United States
I think one of the other objectives that could apply under 'stabilizing relations between the empire and Laurelorn' is that it could ease tensions between Marienburg and the empire over the Black Waters Project, hopefully heading off another fight with Ulthuan and its White Tower getting involved.
- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
One thing I do want to say about Shadow Daggers, despite my personal low interest in them, is that they would occupy a fairly unique niche among Ulgu spells.
The only close-range murderin spells the Ulgu spellbook has are Shadow Knives and Throttling, and Shadow Knives are more for throwing and probably far less immediately lethal unless you have spectacular aim, and Throttling has its own limitations.
If a Grey Wizard wants to kill someone up close quickly, then Shadow Daggers would be a substantial upgrade over their other options in the spellbook as far as I can tell. Codifying Shadow Daggers would almost certainly save the lives of some of the Grey Wizards that learn it, either by enabling much swifter/cleaner assassinations or by being a clutch melee option where there otherwise is none.
Of course, a theoretical Shadow Sword would share most of these niches, which is part of why I'm not as interested in it. But Shadow Swords are purely theoretical at this point still so I can see the argument for codifying Shadow Daggers and not stalling on codifying a potentially very useful spell just because we might invent a superior one.
The only close-range murderin spells the Ulgu spellbook has are Shadow Knives and Throttling, and Shadow Knives are more for throwing and probably far less immediately lethal unless you have spectacular aim, and Throttling has its own limitations.
If a Grey Wizard wants to kill someone up close quickly, then Shadow Daggers would be a substantial upgrade over their other options in the spellbook as far as I can tell. Codifying Shadow Daggers would almost certainly save the lives of some of the Grey Wizards that learn it, either by enabling much swifter/cleaner assassinations or by being a clutch melee option where there otherwise is none.
Of course, a theoretical Shadow Sword would share most of these niches, which is part of why I'm not as interested in it. But Shadow Swords are purely theoretical at this point still so I can see the argument for codifying Shadow Daggers and not stalling on codifying a potentially very useful spell just because we might invent a superior one.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ah. I still don't understand. Sure there's a dead branch in Laurelorn there, but there's also a living branch from Middenheim to Salzenmund, and Salzenmund's closest woodland is Laurelorn's Ward of Frost. That still looks like an active branch to me?
- Pronouns
- He/His/etc
What's the theoretical basis for Shadow Sword? Are we assuming that "the symbol of the Grey College is a sword" is embedded deeply enough in imperial culture that we can leverage off it?
Ulgu represents the razor thin boundary that cuts between light and shadow—this is what allows for spells like the Penumbral Pendulum, which uses that line to scythe through things.
Broadly speaking, if you want to cut something, Ulgu is the wind for it. You could probably make something that cuts with the gold or jade winds, and amber can probably sharpen your claws or something, but cutting itself is covered by Ulgu.
- Pronouns
- He/His/etc
So not so much making a 'sword', symbolically speaking, as making a line that divides things and then swinging it like a sword?
- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It's in the Approved Spells List, so we know it's a plausible line of research.
That's a copout answer, though, and we probably do have to actually come up with how a sword can come out of Ulgu before we can get anywhere with that, so its a good question.
...I was gonna talk about Ulgu and how it relates to cutting but Nerdasaurus ninja'd me. xD
I also want to add that cutting something is always really about boundaries. Cutting is not just abstractly "damaging things", which wouldnt be within Ulgu, but cutting is severing the connections between matter. Cutting through the boundaries.
Basically this yeah. God I need to make my posts faster lmao. Thank fuck for the "there have been new posts since you started writing" function.